<rjeffries> I suspect the bot that copies this channel to the log file is not working.
<kyak> ddd/t
<kyak> what makes you think that?
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: hmm, tuxbrain is very silent lately. do you have any life signs from him ?
<wolfspraul> no
<wolfspraul> but... tuxbrain nearly disappeared for 3+ months last year
<wolfspraul> diving
<wpwrak> urgh
<wolfspraul> and then he reappeared
<wolfspraul> well the reality is sometimes with our kind of stuff you cannot hold the same pace all the time
<wolfspraul> I am also quite a lot underground lately, or am I not? :-)
<wolfspraul> so he reappeared last time (and stronger than before), he will surely reappear this time
<wpwrak> yes, indeed. found some "daytime" work ?
<wolfspraul> no way
<wpwrak> all mm1-v3 ?
<wolfspraul> I rather go run 10h / day thinking how to move forward
<wpwrak> (disappear/reappear) yeah. i'm just wondering because we have the wpan production moving along. so there's an external pace for a while.
<wolfspraul> yes mostly rc3
<wolfspraul> from our forum: "Is it Possible to use nanonote as an oscilloscope (using it's inbuilt ADC using the 3.5mm jack as input) using software like xoscope?"
<wpwrak> it ought to be, with all the constraints such a solution has (no DC-coupling, only AC-coupling; very limited bandwidth; probably not very linear either; ...)
<wpwrak> regarding software, it may be easier to write something from scratch than porting an application, particularly if non-X is a requirement
<wpwrak> (linear) that can of course be partially compensated by software
<jesperj> hi guys
<wolfspraul> hi
<jesperj> If I recall correctly, when checking out eye tracker designs in the past, I have seen quite a lot of them using analog cameras compared to for example ordinary "webcams". If this is the case, is there any reason why an analog camera would be prefered?
<jesperj> or could it just be the case that good enough digital cameras were not available when the designs with analog cameras were compiled?
<wpwrak> better optics than cheap webcams perhaps ?
<wpwrak> yes, that would be my guess
<wpwrak> some of the early webcams were quite dreadful
<jesperj> If I were to play around with making my own eyetracker today, then I would want a very small camera to make it inobtrusive, and then what comes to mind are cameras from cell phones
<wpwrak> jesperj: yes, why not. phone cams have reasonably good resolution. and they (usually ?) have a fast parallel bus, so you can get the images out quickly enough.
<jesperj> nods
<jesperj> I just had to check if I had missed something there, some reason why not to use digital camera
<roh> not reaööy
<roh> irgh. really
<roh> jesperj: 'no driver support yet'
<jesperj> http://embeddedsystemnews.com/toshiba-introduces-new-8-megapixel-cmos-image-sensor-and-2mp-cscm-in-15-inch-optical-format.html < Cool. Besides CCM cameras there are also CSCM "Chip Scale Camera Module"
<jesperj> roh: What do you mean with "no driver support yet"?
<roh> digital camera -> digital interface.
<roh> means usb or similar.
<roh> mm1 doesnt have drivers for such afaik
<wolfspraul> roh: hey there. I have some mechanical m1 feedback.
<wolfspraul> first - Adam will see whether the DMX TX connector is available in a version that has the metal 'push' button on the left side, rather than on top
<wolfspraul> that would make it easier to press, because otherwise the top acrylic is in the way a little when trying to press it
<wolfspraul> if we do that, we would need to move the 'DMX' label to the left, otherwise it would be partially behind the 'push' button
<wolfspraul> do you know what I mean?
<roh> sure
<wolfspraul> is that OK with you? (we haven't decided whether we want this change, I just try to get the pieces together so we can make a yes/no decision)
<roh> of course i can do that
<wolfspraul> it's a small thing, but seems like an easy change if such a connector exists...
<wolfspraul> do you have any opposition against this idea?
<roh> i would just like to remember that the current connector is neutrik. dont use anything cheaper or less qualitative.
<wolfspraul> another option would be to cut out some piece from the top acrylic, but that's a bigger change and would look ugly imo
<wolfspraul> no worries
<wolfspraul> the 'push' is still pushable, but for someone with a bit bigger fingers, or even glove or so, it's probably hard to push it
<roh> i was more worried that the depth to press the button isnt deep enough with 3mm acryllic
<jesperj> roh: Pardon my ignorance but what is "mm1"?
<wolfspraul> jesperj: thanks for asking, curiosity rules here :-)
<roh> jesperj: milkymist one
<jesperj> oh I am way too curious for my own good :)
<wolfspraul> anonymous curiosics
<roh> jesperj: i thought you were referring to the cam input and the discussions about adding one to the kit
<wolfspraul> we all suffer from that one
<jesperj> but it feels good if that attitude is common in this channel
<wolfspraul> roh: I'm just testing. I cannot tell what the minimum is that 'push' needs to be pushed in, but there is no problem with that
<wolfspraul> the push button definitely releases the cable
<jesperj> roh: Oh. No I am thinking about pros and cons for usage in constructing an eye tracker.
<wolfspraul> but it's hard to push down being squeezed in between the top acrylic and the DMX cable
<roh> btw.. there are no analog cams.. or digital ones. there are cams with analog or digital video interfaces. the chips themselved (ccd/cmos) are not really analog anyhow
<wolfspraul> roh: ok, so please note this. We _may_ move the DMX label to the left for the next order of 80 cases from you, it's not decided yet.
<wolfspraul> I will let you know asap.
<wpwrak> roh: sure there are analog cams ;-)
<roh> wolfspraul: the only thing i can do anyhow is drill the metal sheets from gemmel which arrived yesterday and then start unmounting the cnc mill
<wolfspraul> roh: then I have another one. THe reception of the internal microphone is quite bad inside the case. How do you feel about adding a hole on the side, between VGA connector and line-in
<roh> my electronics workbench is already unmounted and moved (not reassembled yet)
<wpwrak> jekhor: btw, mm1 refers to this: http://www.milkymist.org/
<roh> hm. i dont think a simple hole would make it better so much
<wolfspraul> Adam would then need to see how he can move the microphone closer to the acrylic, or make it point towards the acrylic
<wolfspraul> no we can make the microphone reach into the hole or so. only have to be careful that it's not becoming too fragile for assembly/disassembly
<roh> to be fair.. i wonder why you added such a electret mike at all.
<wolfspraul> you are saying you would remove the microphone?
<roh> i wouldnt have added an internal one.
<wolfspraul> I think an integrated microphone that 'just works' is nice. but inside the case the reception is just not very good, only if it is loud outside (which Sebastien says it is in a VJ environment)
<wolfspraul> ok, but we have it and I think it's nice
<roh> seems like a leftover from a develboard where somebody wanted to use all the pins on his codec (makes sense on a develboard)
<wolfspraul> so the question is whether we can improve reception
<wolfspraul> it's fun that you can clap into your hands and the vga output reacts :-)
<roh> i am not critisising.. just wondering. dont vj's always get proper line audio from the dj booth?
<wolfspraul> ok let's just be very specific about the upcoming run of 80, rc3
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: how does sound currently reach the mic ? are there holes for it in the acrylic ?
<roh> wpwrak: resonance mostly
<wolfspraul> I think it's clear we do not want to move the vga connector or line in/out
<wolfspraul> so the only question is whether we can improve the microphone reception
<wolfspraul> we will not remove the mic in rc3
<wpwrak> roh: so .. negative hi-fi ?
<wolfspraul> adam can move it closer to the acrylic, and make it point to the acrylic
<wolfspraul> I think if there would be a hole there, things could be much better
<roh> wpwrak: its a low-end electrec capsue.. so.. regardless of making holes.. ye. low-fi
<wolfspraul> wpwrak: well. no.
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: one hole or a number of holes ?
<roh> and my fingers are still sleeping
<wolfspraul> the gaps in the case somewhere :-)
<wolfspraul> I was thinking about one hole, potentially large enough so that the mic can reach into it
<wpwrak> does the mic have a surface suitable for exposure ?
<roh> wpwrak: nope.
<wolfspraul> huh? checking...
<roh> wolfspraul: i think i can imagine.. but it wouldn look pretty
<wpwrak> so that would suggests many small holes something like <= 1mm
<wolfspraul> ok, then we can also do something with a few small holes, and the mic behind those
<wolfspraul> that's also more robust for assembly/disassembly
<wolfspraul> why 'many small holes'? I would make them less and bigger
<wolfspraul> 3-5
<roh> and what keeps the mic there?
<wolfspraul> it keeps itself there, it's on some feet right now (wait checking...)
<wpwrak> drawback: may give an access for spilled liquids. does the mic face upward ?
<wolfspraul> just need to find out that points to the side, or simply bend it
<roh> mine has weird bent pins... , 2
<roh> wpwrak: ack
<wolfspraul> ok mine is sitting flat on the pcb
<roh> wolfspraul: add some 3$ mic for external connect, remove the internal one ;)
<wolfspraul> diameter seems to be 5-6mm (guessed)
<roh> outsource the issue11!1
<wpwrak> oh course, most DJs probably have a spare gibbet stowed away for anyone who spills their drink on the equipment, but still ...
<wolfspraul> more clutter, I really don't like it
<wolfspraul> also more expensive
<wolfspraul> integrated mic is nice
<roh> maybe you should test the internal mic
<roh> via line out.
<wolfspraul> so... it seems we have a lot of enthousiasm and reached consensus :-)
<roh> and some headphones or so
<wolfspraul> (joking)
<roh> to 'hear wat the mm hears'
<wolfspraul> maybe you are right and there are more problems
<wolfspraul> but I just want to make a simple improvement now, or understand what simple improvement is possible
<wolfspraul> it is pretty clear that the mic is really locked away right now
<roh> check how sensitive it is without case and if wood or acryllic makes much difference etc
<wolfspraul> well, that's easy
<wolfspraul> open the top cover, run some patch, speak into the microphone
<roh> no. not a patch
<wolfspraul> then close the cover, tighten the screws, try the same thing again
<wolfspraul> :-)
<roh> i meant AUDIO
<wpwrak> for the little holes, probably a center hole plus a ring of peripheral holes would work well. maybe with a ring diameter of ~5 mm. (hole center would be on the ring)
<roh> not something which works on it. use headphones.
<wolfspraul> I am pretty sure that the way we lock it into the acrylic makes it mostly 'deaf'
<wolfspraul> of course in software we can increase the volume again, but why not add some holes and move the mic close to those holes?
<wpwrak> something like 6 holes on the ring
<wolfspraul> Sebastien made the best point - in a typical VJ environment it is so loud that even if it's locked away, it will still work
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: the case probably also has frequency-dependent attenuation. so you'd have to equalize as well, not just amplify.
<wolfspraul> but I think that's a quite extreme argument, even if valid, especially that is no argument why it shouldn't be better in the first place
<wolfspraul> roh: let's do 2 things:
<wolfspraul> 1) I ask Adam how easy it is to move the mic right next to the side, and make it point to the side (90 degree)
<wolfspraul> 2) same as with 'moving the DMX label', you know that we are looking into this and maybe we want to add some holes there. if so I will try to send you a mechanical sample upfront.
<wolfspraul> or just some parts so you can try/imagine
<wolfspraul> you haven't made a point yet why such holes would be bad, you only say the whole internal mic idea is bad
<wpwrak> you could also combine "many small holes" with "lateral placement". that would remove the access for liquids.
<wolfspraul> wpwrak: you mean just leave it sitting flat on the pcb?
<wolfspraul> if we add a few holes, we probably also want to add a new label 'MIC'
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: leaving it flat may not be optimal when the sound comes from the side. but if you can tilt it and make small holes on the side, you'd get reasonably simple assembly plus direct access for soundwaves, yet no new upward-facing hole(s)
<wolfspraul> upward facing holes?
<rjeffries> wpwrak is your email working these days?
<wolfspraul> I thought roh and I so far talked about holes on the side
<wpwrak> (hole pattern) with a 1+6 pattern, the distance between holes on the ring would be roughly the same as the distance between holes and the ring and the center hole
<wpwrak> rjeffries: aye
<rjeffries> thx
<wolfspraul> roh: technically adding holes there and a 'MIC' label is OK for you?
<wpwrak> rjeffries: at least a dozen bayes-cheating spammers have told me so today :-(
<roh> wolfspraul: could do that.. dont think it will look nice yet
<roh> you mean the side, right?
<wolfspraul> actually now that I think about it, most 'mic' designs just have 1 small hole
<wolfspraul> like the Ben :-)
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: (holes) ah, thought that plan A was big mounting hole on the side, plan B many small holes wherever the mic is facing
<roh> does only work with directional sounds... like headphones.. or telephones
<wolfspraul> the mic is facing up, but the distance between top of mic and top acrylic is quite big, and I wouldn't want holes in the top side
<roh> and the mic is placed directly behind such one-hole-things
<wolfspraul> yes but we can do that here
<wolfspraul> one hole, say 2mm diameter? or 1mm? then the mic right behind it?
<roh> anyhow... i'll need to run now..  hope i can get the drilling for the metal done today... then the machines will be disassembled
<wolfspraul> ok
<wolfspraul> roh: please remember those 2 potential additions
<wolfspraul> DMX label move, MIC label & hole
<wolfspraul> 'potential' right now
<roh> wolfspraul: i'll ask again for final thoughts before giving the big laser order.
<wolfspraul> thanks
<roh> currently i am just stocking on parts and ramping everything to the 'go'
<roh> while moving ;)
<roh> bbl
<rjeffries> is everyone asleep?
<wpwrak> or working :)
<rjeffries> wpwrak that is a decent alibi. ;)
<GNUtoo> <rjeffries> wpwrak that is a decent alibi. ;)
<GNUtoo> alibi of that:
<GNUtoo> git commit crime
<GNUtoo> ?
<wpwrak> alibi for being silent yet not asleep :)
<wpwrak> hmm, does anyone know if there's a way to do the equivalent of passing a -geometry argument with SDL ? what i'm looking for is a way to make an SDL window appear at a specific position under X.
<wpwrak> ah, found it.  export SDL_VIDEO_WINDOW_POS=x,y    :)
<phretor> hi, will this IDE2USB (NEC D720130GC) http://dl.dropbox.com/u/215810/ide2usb.jpg need separate power or it can take it from the USB bus? It comes from a 3.5'' HD enclosure.
<Jay7> wrong channel but you may just try
<phretor> Jay7: any other suggestion besides #hardware
<Jay7> sorry, I don't know any..
<rjeffries> wpwrak interesting set of slides around TinyOS and wireless PANs. http://www.inf.ethz.ch/personal/mharvan/talks/wsn.pdf
<wpwrak> heh, yet another C variant ;-)
<wpwrak> the problem: global optimization is hard because object files don't carry enough information. attempted solution: dumb down the language a but and beef up the object files a bit, until you can somewhat do global optimization. fact not considered: open source exists.
<wpwrak> an analogy:
<wpwrak> the problem: this knot is too difficult to disentangle. attempted solution: get the knotmaker to make it a little less complicated and use an oiled rope, until you can wiggle it apart. fact not considered: you're carrying a sword.
<wpwrak> how hard can it be to put 2 and 2 together and arrive at the correct result ? :)
<rjeffries> wpwrak what do you kn ow about the microIP protocol they mention wher eit looks like
<rjeffries> they are able to have a very small IP and TCP/IP that (I think) they tunnel through some lower level protocol
<rjeffries> the aim being to allow a VERY low poere WPAN node be able to conne=ct (eventually, through a gateway)
<rjeffries> to the "real internet)
<wpwrak> rjeffries: isn't uIP a stack of 6lowpan, not a new protocol ?
<wpwrak> rjeffries: how you connect to the "real" internet is another question. sometimes you do indeed want a layer 7 gateway.
<wpwrak> rjeffries: non-standard layer <= 3 protocols don't make sense anyway. not being able to fit 6lowpan into some microcontroller is hardly an excuse :)
<rjeffries> wpwrak I am out of date re your status with 6lowpan.
<wpwrak> rjeffries: nothing new for the last few weeks. i'm now working on the production testing.