<tuxbrain_away>
wpwrak , kristianpaul : can I suggest a protuberance, hook li in that wpan case? , to "anchor" it to the hole "supposedly thinked to attach a strap", this way we can remove some mechanical stress to the uSD attachment
<tuxbrain_away>
hook li ->"hook like"
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain_away: you mean a little "nose" that goes into the hole ?
<tuxbrain_away>
yep
<wpwrak>
hmm, that hole is about 4 mm below the plane of the pcb. quite far.
<tuxbrain_away>
sure it will not remove all , but torsion will be less a risk ...
<tuxbrain_away>
well plastic is plastic, and the mould should be as expensive with that nose or not
<wpwrak>
one of my suggestions for the ya i had queued up would be two holes above the sd card plane where one could insert 100 mil headers. that would be pretty solid.
<tuxbrain_away>
good thinking :)
<tuxbrain_away>
but I'm thinking more on an accesory for actual ben...
<wpwrak>
ah, the nose could be somewhat difficult to make. for injection, it would at least need a much deeper mold (you'd have to rotate the bottom plate)
<wpwrak>
not sure about 3d printing. may be possible with a filler. depends a bit on the feature size.
<wpwrak>
(injection) and if rotating the bottom plate, it can't be flat anymore. but that may be okay in this case. could even look better.
<wpwrak>
makes the mold hard to mill, though. so you'd probably need a 3-part mold.
<wpwrak>
(hard to mill) because endmills that go deep enough would be relatively thick.
<tuxbrain_away>
well is matter to see how much it cost and if worth the meaning
<tuxbrain_away>
if it not protecct to much, maybe is just pointless such effort
<tuxbrain_away>
but I'm worried about the length of pcb and the tinny contact surface of attachement
<wpwrak>
yes, the mechanical stability isn't so nice. attaching to uSD is a great improvement upon having to cut up the lcd's pcb and running wires between the shells, but it's not perfect.
<tuxbrain_away>
any accidental push on the extreme and "clack" another sad  geek crying for his broken toy
<wpwrak>
one more sale for you ;-)
<tuxbrain_away>
I only want happy geeks on my shop
<tuxbrain_away>
I agree on the avoid on soldering to hardware hack is a really great improvement in deed :)
<tuxbrain_away>
this can remove the Warranty removal advice on my  future posts :)
<tuxbrain_away>
btw any one has attempted a soft serial by uSD yet?
<wpwrak>
you mean rs232 ?
<tuxbrain_away>
no 3V3 uart
<wpwrak>
yeah, that's what i meant. the rest is just level shifting :) hmm, would be tricky.
<wpwrak>
you could do it at high speed but tx-only with low duty cycle.
<wpwrak>
or at low speed. the problem is that you'd need to get an interrupt for each bit/sample. that's quite a lot, even at moderate speeds.
<wpwrak>
otherwise, you'd have to busy-loop until the byte is in or out.
<tuxbrain_away>
9600 should be enough
<wpwrak>
ah, scratch tx-only. rx with low duty cycle would also be okay.
<tuxbrain_away>
why that difference in writting reading?
<wpwrak>
hmm, that's about 20 kHz interrupts or more.
<wpwrak>
naw, tx and rx should be the same. i didn't think that you could just interrupt on the start bit.
<wpwrak>
you need extremely tight interrupt latency, though. that's usually not a problem, but sometimes it is. so whenever your interrupt is late, you have some data loss or corruption.
<wpwrak>
of course, if your cpu is dedicated full-time to the "soft uart", then you don't have timing problems. you just busy loop.
<tuxbrain_away>
I have some C bit banging serial code example from carlos from my early serial attempts, never used it, and actually I have scarce time to investigate, I will try to recover it , and think how adapt it to the uSD pins
<wpwrak>
i would just add a cheap microcontroller that takes care of the uart timing :) you can feed it a very accurate clock from the ben, so you don't need a crystal.
<tuxbrain_away>
hehehe you have by passed my electronic skill by far with this sentence :P
<wpwrak>
ah, look at the atusd schematics and you'll see :-)
<wpwrak>
CLK_16M is provided by the SD/MMC clock, which I set to 16 MHz
<wpwrak>
that way, i don't need a crystal. works quite nicely.
<tuxbrain_away>
it can reach 56700 with this approach?
<tuxbrain_away>
also is that microcontroller aviable in more hobbist friendly format?
<wpwrak>
if you have a chip that implements a uart in hardware, sure. you typically need something like 4x or 16x the bit rate. so that would be at least 1 Mbps, if your circuit plays along
<wpwrak>
err, what would "hobbyist friendly mean" in this case ? :)
<wpwrak>
s/ mean"/" mean/
<tuxbrain_away>
easy to put in a breadboard :)
<tuxbrain_away>
no need to SMD
<wpwrak>
yikes.
<wpwrak>
but where's the fun ? :)
<tuxbrain_away>
haahahahaah
<wpwrak>
sure, there are tons of pics and atmels in dip packages
<wolfspra1l>
tuxbrain_away: what is a nice breadboard size in your opinion?
<wolfspra1l>
to go along with the breakout cable...
<tuxbrain_away>
mmm what you mean by breadboard , the soldering one or the lot of holes plastic pluggable one
<tuxbrain_away>
?
<tuxbrain_away>
in the eschema what is the difference of AGND and DGND grounds?
<tuxbrain_away>
btw atusd is the hole schema for the wpan thing? is so "easy" to do?
<wpwrak>
agnd and dgnd aren't actually good concepts here. i copied that from the reference design. however, atmel themselves actually recommend four ground areas.
<wpwrak>
yes, the circuit is very simple :)
<tuxbrain_away>
That a good thing :)
<wpwrak>
what's a bit tricky is the rf side, especially the antenna tuning. the antenna design i'm using is for a thicker board. so i need to adjust the antenna. unfortunately, they don't say how. so it'll be trial and error ...
<tuxbrain_away>
ouch!
<tuxbrain_away>
yes AFAIK RF is even black magic to experts on such matter :)
<tuxbrain_away>
they do maths yes but at the end a lot of tolerance has to be added to results :)
<wpwrak>
yeah. and antenna tuning should be among the best in that regard. even adding a bit of plastic (e.g., a case) can change things quite dramatically
<wolfspra1l>
tuxbrain_away: I mean the "lot of holes plastic pluggable one"
<wolfspra1l>
do you think a soldering breadboard is better?
<wpwrak>
you would probably also have to include a set of jumper wires
<tuxbrain_away>
wolfspra1l: well I think they have very different funtions and on this case the soldering one not have too much sense due they are pretended to have hobbist final results , and due the size it will have will be no sense to attachech on uSD
<tuxbrain_away>
I have one in stock :)
<tuxbrain_away>
not of that model I find thos thinny ones too much tinny
<tuxbrain_away>
yes we do a mass buy directly to china manufacturer :)
<tuxbrain_away>
regarding the tinny model, I try it but when your circuit is a bit more complicated than just plug one microcontroler you miss a lot of holes :)
<tuxbrain_away>
so I find this model quite confortable and unexepensive
<wpwrak>
yeah, i thought more in the sense of a proof of concept. but you're right, a larger board has almost the same price.
<tuxbrain_away>
btw any clue when we could have some breakout uSD adaptors as first Ben NN complement?
<wolfspra1l>
I try to make some, but cannot commit to a date right now
<wpwrak>
wolfspra1l: what cost do you expect ?
<wolfspra1l>
first 10 maybe 15 USD/piece
<tuxbrain_away>
wow
<wolfspra1l>
I will probably do ribbon cable, not fpc
<tuxbrain_away>
that make sense.. less stress on the connector
<wolfspra1l>
tuxbrain_away: so I understand you have enough breadboard stuff already, I don't need to worry about it. great!
<wolfspra1l>
tuxbrain_away: wow high or wow low?
<tuxbrain_away>
wow high
<wpwrak>
yup. seems quite expensive.
<wolfspra1l>
good thing everybody here is used to work for free :-)
<wpwrak>
wolfspra1l: are you sure you asked factory.cn, not factory.ch ? :)
<tuxbrain_away>
hehehehe  you know the pourest multinational company qi-hardware :P
<tuxbrain_away>
no comunism no capitalism no money :P
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain_away: they'll have an article about wolfgang in Exploit - The Magazine for the Globalized Entrepreneur, "How to pay less than the Chinese" :)
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain_away: ;-))
<tuxbrain_away>
LOL
<wolfspra1l>
wpwrak: right.
<wolfspra1l>
do you want to make microsd breakout cables for 10 USD / piece?
<tuxbrain_away>
ok ok let's focus (a bit) I understand this 10 are prototipes so price is .... "justified" but price expected for a higher number let's say 200
<wolfspra1l>
please don't forget the fuse. also proper testing of each one. when it's done ship to David.
<wolfspra1l>
tuxbrain_away: come on in large quantities, in electronics, it's all zero.
<wolfspra1l>
all costs are just amortizations of one-time investements
<wolfspra1l>
the silicon and plastic and bit of metals is all near zero
<wolfspra1l>
so sure, for 100 it's already < 10 USD for sure
<wolfspra1l>
for 1000 even less, etc.
<wolfspra1l>
look at the total
<wolfspra1l>
10 * 15 = 150 USD
<wolfspra1l>
think about the amount of work, counting really everything not like us here working 16h/day for free
<tuxbrain_away>
no no please the 0 asymptote discuse again not :P
<wpwrak>
oh, you're making only 15 ?
<wolfspra1l>
first I make 10, see the quality
<wolfspra1l>
send some people, then go from there
<wolfspra1l>
so for 100, let's say the price is down to 8 USD, that's 8 * 100 = 800 USD
<wolfspra1l>
for 1 million, I'm sure it can be done for 1 USD / piece :-)
<wpwrak>
for 1M it should be cents :)
<wolfspra1l>
I just bought some pouches (David will send you some), costing 15 US cents / piece
<wolfspra1l>
unbelievable
<tuxbrain_away>
mmm, I'm worried about selling price of breakout, more than 10¬ will be no joy
<wolfspra1l>
relax guys
<wolfspra1l>
you asked about price, I gave you one. I am paying.
<tuxbrain_away>
relax you too:) , I'm just doing projections about the data I have
<Ornotermes>
wpwrak: the solderless board on dikikey looks quite overpriced
<wpwrak>
Ornotermes: they're not cheap. well, the bigger one has roughly the same price as tuxbrain's.
<tuxbrain_away>
Ornotermes: don't think so, this bitches is quite expensive even buyed in large numbers
<tuxbrain_away>
at least if you want a quite bit of quality
<wolfspra1l>
aha :-)
<wolfspra1l>
tuxbrain is reality man...
<Ornotermes>
the small one i have cost like USD 4.25+vat for two pcs in sweden
<tuxbrain_away>
yes, I even see the small one cheaper, I was thinking on the larger one
<tuxbrain_away>
but as I said I found the smaller less practical
<Ornotermes>
the bigger looks more renable
<Ornotermes>
resonable
<wpwrak>
USD 3/each sounds more like what i imagined for the small one
<wpwrak>
i was thinking of a combination of cheap cable plus small board. of course, if the cable is so expensive ...
<tuxbrain_away>
and expensive ones than for it's price you should tell the board what to do with natural language and work with wireless energy taked from air , but not it was just a piece of plastic waiting for components to be plugged
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: he's looking for an extension of the case at the antenna end, there it goes lower and then has a "nose" that goes into the little hole the ben has for a lanyard
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: so if you push from above or below, the force would go to that nose and not act like a lever on the micro-SD slot
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: not sure if it would really make sense, though. most likely, you'd just shear off the small plastic nose while the rest of the board wouldn't even notice what's happening
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: that is, unless you have a really strong plastic that resists to shear like steel
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: btw, what sort of plastic are you using for extrusion ? may have properties that also make it interesting for DIY injection molding.
<kyak>
bartbes: are you there?
<bartbes>
yeah
<kyak>
i've noticed that though i have libncursesw selected, the CONFIGURE_ARGS (specifically, --enable-widec) is not passed to configure script
<kyak>
does this "VARIANT" thing work at all?
<bartbes>
well...
<bartbes>
you should ask larsc
<kyak>
ok..
<kyak>
larsc: do you know perhaps what could be the problem?
<kyak>
at the end i end up with libncursesw libraries as well as libncurses, but there is obviously no wide char support
<kyak>
configure says "checking if you want wide-character code... no"
<kyak>
(now that i have cyrillic utf-8 in console, i want to build lynx with multibyte support)
<bartbes>
well, it worked when I delivered it to larsc, he said he needed to make some more changes
<bartbes>
and now apparently it fails
<bartbes>
doesn't want to be blamed ;)
<kyak>
hm, can you show your original version?
<bartbes>
I don't think I still have it
<larsc>
in theory it should work ;)
<bartbes>
well, it might be the reason why I never got wordgrinder to build either
<kyak>
i think it should build two times:
<kyak>
first times it should build libncurses, second time libncursesw
<larsc>
yes
<larsc>
thats what it should do
<larsc>
(in theory)
<larsc>
and at least did at some point in practice
<kyak>
larsc: while you are here, can i ask for another favor: feeds/packages/utils/vim/Makefile should have "--enable-multibyte" instead of "--disable-multibyte"
<kyak>
only this way i can make utf-8 work in vim
<kyak>
for vi (built-in busybox) it is enough to have CONFIG_BUSYBOX_CONFIG_FEATURE_VI_8BIT=y
<kyak>
also i think you should disregard my previous concerns about libncursesw... the second time (when it build libncursesw configure says "checking if you want wide-character code... yes"
<kyak>
so i'll continue digging on lynx's side
<larsc>
kyak: configure:6814: checking if you want wide-character code
<larsc>
configure:6824: result: yes
<kyak>
yes. soory for confusion
<kyak>
i only noticed the first time build before
<kyak>
where it said "no" for libncurses
<bartbes>
...
<bartbes>
looks at larsc
<bartbes>
time for payback?
<larsc>
nope
<bartbes>
hehe
<larsc>
no time ;)
<kyak>
larsc: what about vim? i think i have access to upstream OpenWrt
<kyak>
*you have
<larsc>
yes. but i'm not sure whether that change is wanted
<kyak>
why not? it won't affect existing users experience
<kyak>
also, i assume that those who want minimal vi, are satisfied with the one from busybox.. when they install vim-full they should expect multibye support (my opinion)
<larsc>
i'll think about it.
<larsc>
better ask mirko. i think he is more likely to merge such a patch
<kyak>
ok, thank you
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: BAS
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: ABS is the plastic
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: i also have some nice balck PLA i think ill try that at last when got better design
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: are you lanning do you own plastic molding machine? cool :D
<wpwrak>
i;m trying to find out what it would take. industrial injection molding has some scary properties, but some of them may exist simply because of specific requirements.
<wpwrak>
abs doesnt't look bad. in many ways similar to polyethylene. now if i could just find the mfr/mfi ...
<wpwrak>
LDPE should still flow better than ABS. about twice as well.
<wpwrak>
abs can handle more mechanical abuse, that's for sure.
<rafa>
ta taaaan!
<wpwrak>
rafa: good morning, too :-)
<rafa>
haha
<rafa>
:)
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: what's interesting is that these plastics melt flow at pretty low temperatures. only ~105-120 C. i wonder if one could just heat a block of wood and use that as a mold, given enough time. (if the mold is hot, then there's no rush in injecting the plastic)
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: ABS also uses much higher injection pressure than PE. ABS ~80 MPa, PE ~10 MPa. a DIY injector should be able to produce something around 1-10 MPa.
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: actually .. i wonder if you really need more than a threaded tube you can heat, plus a large screw. add a motor and you have a servo-controlled injector, the pinnacle of injection techniques :)
<wpwrak>
(injection pressure) oops, that was another plastic. nope, only about 50 MPa for ABS and 80 MPa for LDPE. LLDPE would go as low as 10 MPa. grmbl.