<wolfspraul>
xiangfu: I think I remember Mirko said that nptl might be necessary for some new qt version. not sure though.
<kyak>
there is a problem: 0.9.32 uClibc stop some programs from working correctly. At the same time, those programs work correctly with 0.9.30.1 uClibc, but then qt4 acts weird. For example, it can't correctly exit an application that uses directfb
<kyak>
i'm talking about NanoMap, but i also tested it with a qt4 "hello world"
<kyak>
and i also mentioned several times it has something to do with nptl, because uClibc 0.9.30.1 lacks nptl and some threads of qt4 are not terminated correctly (just an assumption). at the same time, some other application (by their old design, i assume) can't work correctly with nptl version of uClibc
<wolfspraul>
kyak: ok! :-) and what now?
<wolfspraul>
I suggest we try to fix the 0.9.32 with nptl version.
<kyak>
now nothing
<kyak>
i pinged mirko some time ago with questions about qt4-* pacakges, but he's not around
<kyak>
i think he's the only one who can figure out this issues with qt4
<elricsfate>
well anyway I am looking for some fun ideas on what to do with my soon to be nano note
<elricsfate>
anyone have any suggestions?
<kyak>
define "fun"
<elricsfate>
fun= something thrilling, entertaining, or educating.
<elricsfate>
I am already looking into using it to flash arudino which will be rather useful
<elricsfate>
I have plenty of ideas for the Arduino I have coming in but not to many for the nanonote
<kyak>
i've found it interesting for myself to play with openwrt toolchain
<kyak>
and porting some software, too
<kyak>
very educating
<wolfspraul>
elricsfate: thanks for buying one, first of all! what are you good at, and what do you want to learn?
<elricsfate>
kyak: Roger. I have thought about installing an internal wireless card by stripping a small linux compatible wireless usb card.
<kyak>
not possible, cause Ben lacks for usb host -\
<kyak>
however, you can buy a microSD Wi-Fi card
<kyak>
(i had one, but never got it working, and at was broken at the end)
<elricsfate>
wolfspraul: I have general linux knowledge. Most of my knowledge pertains to troubleshooting and system/network administration. As far as what I would like to learn? As much as I can about everything haha. I am dabbling in electronics and the such (have an Arduino coming in the mail. Lots of ideas for that) and I am currently a computer science major (I am a freshman and haven't started in on the programming part yet) . I wo
<elricsfate>
wolfspraul: So basically I am telling you I intend this to be a large learning experience. Haha.
<elricsfate>
wolfspraul: Also your welcome.
<kyak>
...and IRC's 512 bytes limitation comes in action :)
<wolfspraul>
kyak: your wifi card broke? didn't know that. what happened?
<wolfspraul>
elricsfate: wow, yeah. you seem open minded.
<elricsfate>
kyak: Damn :/ there goes that idea. I am sure I can find some way to make it internal.
<kyak>
wolfspraul: i'm not sure.. at some point i was gentle enough inserting it into microSD slot -\ first it started pilling off (the external plastic), then it became completely useless
<kyak>
*i wasn't gentle
<elricsfate>
wolfspraul: I try to be. I enjoy learning. I started working on computers when I was about 12.
<wolfspraul>
elricsfate: the best challenge, and way to learn for you, around the NanoNote is probably to make it as useful as possible on the software side.
<wolfspraul>
the arduino will be better suited to hookup some simple peripherals etc.
<wolfspraul>
so maybe like kyak dive into the OpenWrt system
<wolfspraul>
we are trying to bring more and more valuable software and content to the NanoNote
<wolfspraul>
like NanoMap, offline wiki readers, dictionaries, etc.
<wolfspraul>
it's not a smartphone, it lacks tons of 'sexy features', like 3G, Wi-Fi, touchscreen, USB Host/on-the-go, GPS, whatnot
<elricsfate>
wolfspraul: Roger. Luckily thats where most of my experience is at. Making things mesh together into something coherent. Now if I would just learn to code haha.
<wolfspraul>
yes the NanoNote, if you are patient, will allow you to dive deeper that's for sure
<wolfspraul>
but it's an exercise in frustration tolerance, gotta know :-)
<elricsfate>
wolfspraul: thats the great thing about the system. it lacks "useless feautures" lol.
<wolfspraul>
so I use mine mostly for note taking on trips (vi)
<wolfspraul>
that's not enough!
<wolfspraul>
but getting more onto it is a big challenge, luckily many people help, we have a projects server, people are contributing etc.
<wolfspraul>
if I look at the hardware specs, and I imagine what it _could_ do (theoretically) after I press the power-on button, oh well, we are maybe able to actually do 5% of that today
<elricsfate>
wolfspraul: Trust me frustration I am used to. I actually work for a GSP company. linuxgamingservers.com. I once stayed up until 5 in the morning helping my boss try and figure out how to get a non-linux native garrysmod server running correctly. That was fun. SSH FTW.
<wolfspraul>
theoretically, you press the power-on, it's up in 3 seconds, and it gives you lots of useful apps, pim, music/video viewer, games, dictionary/wiki/maps. it can sync with your notebook when you plug it in. software can easily be updated. and so on.
<wolfspraul>
that's the theory
<elricsfate>
wolfspraul: That sounds pretty easy to make happen if thats what you envision for this device. :D I am optimist I guess.
<wolfspraul>
the reality today is 5% of that, especially for non-technical end users who cannot install this or that or work their way through configuration and terminals
<wolfspraul>
but ... all is not lost yet :-) we are around, improving the little thing, and slowly people are joining too, so I'm glad you show up here!
<wolfspraul>
there are many things going on on the hardware side too, but they are a bit harder for you to jump into
<wolfspraul>
some GPS hacking, some 802.15.4 RF hacking, 3D work, a board that adds an FPGA (SIE), a whole GPL licensed CPU actually (Milkymist)
<wolfspraul>
and a camera too (Xue)
<elricsfate>
wolfspraul: I have seen that debian (which I will most likely install) has been ported to the nano note.
<wolfspraul>
yes
<wolfspraul>
on this channel, the most active Debian guy right now seems to be nebajoth
<elricsfate>
wolfspraul: I believe (I am going to see how it works and all) it would be much easier for an end user to work with something such as debian
<wolfspraul>
well you have to try, there are many pros and cons
<wolfspraul>
32 MB SDRAM is a big limitation for Debian
<elricsfate>
wolfspraul: I know you have your vision of the device and I think debian would allow you to reach that vision rather quickly.
<elricsfate>
Agreed the RAM is a problem
<wolfspraul>
the Debian situation should get better after more kernel features go upstream, which will happen in a big way in 2.6.36
<wolfspraul>
and then boot time
<elricsfate>
but I am curious. Shouldn't it be possible to use the nand flash as a sort of cache? I know it won't be as fast as RAM but it should help.
<wolfspraul>
I'm all for diversity, nothing against Debian. Personally I enjoy battling with OpenWrt, another effort you might want to check out is the OpenEmbedded based Jlime (www.jlime.com)
<elricsfate>
or if not the nand possibly the SD car
<wolfspraul>
yes people put a swap on the sd card
<wolfspraul>
you will find out all about that soon :-)
<elricsfate>
wolfspraul: I am not sure but is the nand faster or the sd?
<wolfspraul>
hmm
<elricsfate>
wolfspraul: Also I am looking at the jlime as we speak.
<wolfspraul>
depends on the SD card I think some SD cards may be faster
<wolfspraul>
if you want to really learn kernels botom-up, check out the Iris kernel
<elricsfate>
wolfspraul: Also checking out iris. I am sorry for all the questions but as I said I enjoy learning. If someone is handing out free knowledge then why not take it :D.
<wolfspraul>
oh there is plenty of that here, too much maybe :-)
<wolfspraul>
so you need to follow a path that makes sense for you
<elricsfate>
wolfspraul: I guess thats my biggest problem. I try to learn and dabble in a little bit of everything. I am trying to learn about the hardware and software portion of things as they are both related. Ya know?
<elricsfate>
woflspraul: Also are you part of the dev team? Community member?
<wolfspraul>
dev team, server admin, NanoNote salesman
<elricsfate>
wolfspraul: Awesome. Software or hardware side of things as far as dev goes?
<wolfspraul>
software
<wolfspraul>
well 'dev' may be the wrong word. the server admin takes up an awful amount of time.
<wolfspraul>
I just setup a buildhost so hopefully we will get better and quicker with OpenWrt images.
<wolfspraul>
(building right now :-))
<elricsfate>
awesome
<elricsfate>
I have an idea
<elricsfate>
not a unique idea
<elricsfate>
but something practical
<elricsfate>
getting some sort of install manager done for the end user if that hasn't been done already
<elricsfate>
possibly something graphical that takes the small resolution into mind
<wolfspraul>
good idea although I think we are just not there yet
<wolfspraul>
apt-get in Debian and opkg in OpenWrt/Jlime...
<elricsfate>
those are both non graphical are they not? I have something in mind similar to (and I hate to say this) the Apple Store
<wolfspraul>
that's OK, but we can only go step by step by what is possible for us today
<wolfspraul>
I'm not aware of a GUI installer for qvga resolution
<elricsfate>
wolfspraul: Of course. One should have a vision of the vision though shouldn't they?
<elricsfate>
wow typing fail XD
<elricsfate>
*vision of the future
<elricsfate>
perhaps its time for me to go to bed
<elricsfate>
woflspraul: One last question. How many days does it normally take to arrive?
<wolfspraul>
elricsfate: where did you order and where do you live?
<wolfspraul>
mostly it's 'a few days'
<wpwrak>
elricsfate: i like the concept of "a vision of a vision" ;-)
<kristianpaul>
@    WARNING: REMOTE HOST IDENTIFICATION HAS CHANGED!    @
<kristianpaul>
huh?
<kristianpaul>
fidelio.qi-hardware.com
<kristianpaul>
IT IS POSSIBLE THAT SOMEONE IS DOING SOMETHING NASTY!
<kristianpaul>
wolfspraul??
<kristianpaul>
yes about raid1 when dont need mirror something wich no backup is planned ;)
<kristianpaul>
free it we will get twice space i guess :D
<kristianpaul>
wolfspraul: you changed something in fidelio? i got @    WARNING: REMOTE HOST IDENTIFICATION HAS CHANGED!    @
<kristianpaul>
wolfspraul: yes raid1 just will low performance and also we dont need backup
<wolfspraul>
kristianpaul: yes, I did a complete new setup :-)
<kristianpaul>
and more space free i may guess
<kristianpaul>
wolfspraul: oh riht
<wolfspraul>
didn't bother to copy the server keys
<kristianpaul>
i noticed ;)
<wolfspraul>
it's raid0 now, and ext4 (journal disabled) instead of ext2, and some other performance tweaks
<kristianpaul>
good :)
<kristianpaul>
You really make worth to the "is sanbox server, explore !"
<kristianpaul>
sandbox*
<wolfspraul>
well I won't just nuke it again, only now because I realized raid0 is so much better than raid1 in this case
<kristianpaul>
:)
<kristianpaul>
sure
<wolfspraul>
I could have preserved the data on it, but since it was only one day old I just started over
<wolfspraul>
now it's good to go!
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wolfspraul>
I am building already, and will start some more builds
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: I'm thinking about the practical aspects of the breakout sdio cable more. What's so bad about the ribbon cable?
<wolfspraul>
it looks like the ribbon cable is stronger/more versatile than an FPC cable
<wolfspraul>
is the signal integrity in a ribbon cable worse?
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: it's probably a bit more difficult to manufacture. FPC may also be more stable where soldered.
<wolfspraul>
it's probably more expensive, yes. but my feeling is the mechanical stability is much better.
<wpwrak>
signal integrity should be similar (if you use the same spacing)
<wolfspraul>
maybe even better if the ribbon cables are individually shielded?
<wpwrak>
for better mechanical stability, you'd also have to attach the isolated part of the cable somehow. glue or such. that may get tricky.
<wpwrak>
hmm, let's see what shielded ribbon cable costs you ...
<wolfspraul>
you mean the isolation around the individual wires needs to be attached to the pcb?
<wolfspraul>
in terms of soldering, the wires from inside the ribbon cables would be soldered to the PCB as well, don't know why that should be less stable than an FPC?
<wpwrak>
yes. otherwise you pull on the solder joints. since they'll have to be soldered manually, they're likely to experience an uneven load. also, ribbon cable doesn't take too frequent bending lightly.
<wolfspraul>
I need to see what standard techniques/processes exist to attach ribbon cables to a PCB
<wpwrak>
the normal approach is to use a connector
<wolfspraul>
wait a sec loosing you
<wolfspraul>
"you pull on the solder joints"
<wpwrak>
you can of course do this. just adds some overhead
<wolfspraul>
who pulls on what?///
<wolfspraul>
uneven load?
<wolfspraul>
the ribbon cable itself is a lot more stable than the FPC
<wolfspraul>
we agree on that I think
<wpwrak>
when there mechanical stress on the cable, then all that goes to the solder joints
<wolfspraul>
in terms of shielding, the ribbon cable will be as good or better than the fpc?
<wolfspraul>
yes but same for an FPC, no?
<wolfspraul>
of course we could go pro and have a flex-rigid PCB solution :-)
<wpwrak>
in the case of fpc, the cable lies flat, so there's less of a lever. also, you probably have a larger contact surface and a more uniform load distribution
<wolfspraul>
why? I an expose the wires and solder it as strongly to the PCB as I can with an FPC
<wpwrak>
ribbon cable and fpc will typically be unshielded :)
<wolfspraul>
hmm. many fpcs nowadays are shielded.
<wolfspraul>
some silver stuff I think
<wolfspraul>
but it's only on top, so I think there is nothing _between_ the wires (sideways)
<wolfspraul>
(in a shielded fpc)
<wolfspraul>
would you prefer a shielded ribbon cable? (where each wire is shielded) does that help?
<wpwrak>
just look at how thin the wires are :) that 300 V+ isolation does have its cost in terms of wasted space.
<wpwrak>
i'm not sure you can even get an individually shielded ribbon cable
<wpwrak>
there are some with a shield around everything, though
<wpwrak>
what you can get is twisted pair, or put ground wires between signals. the latter is what IDE (PATA) does.
<wolfspraul>
ok one by one
<wolfspraul>
first I try to understand the pros and cons of ribbon vs. fpc
<wolfspraul>
then - if it's fpc, whether fpc shielding (coating on top and bottom) is worth it
<wolfspraul>
and, if it's ribbon, whether ribbon shielding (either around the entire thing or individually or with GND wires) is worth it
<wolfspraul>
the thing is when I look at Ornotermes pictures, the ribbon cable looks perfect to me :-)
<wolfspraul>
fpc? too breakable!
<wpwrak>
you probably don't need a lot of shielding. this is for fairly coarse experiments anyway.
<wolfspraul>
shielding is my second question, what about the first one - fpc vs ribbon
<wpwrak>
fpc have their failure modes too, agreed.
<wolfspraul>
I don't understand the fpc advantages
<wpwrak>
i think soldering a ribbon cable directly on a PCB is a non-standard process
<wolfspraul>
yes that I have to investigate :-)
<wpwrak>
if you can find a way to get this done properly, including some pull relief, a ribbon cable is okay
<wolfspraul>
with an fpc, you can also run the fpc all the way into the microSD connector, and only underlay it with a piece of plastic in the last part (inside the connector), to reach the necessary thickness
<wolfspraul>
so basically no PCB inside the connector at all, just run the fpc in there
<wpwrak>
yes, good idea
<wolfspraul>
actually I've made some of these last year and gave to some people
<wpwrak>
just need to get some good glue ;-)
<wolfspraul>
and the idea was stolen from???
<wolfspraul>
YOU!
<wolfspraul>
maybe you remember that you had the idea of a 'breakout fpc' at our fantastic previous employer
<wpwrak>
yes, that i remember
<wolfspraul>
I will take a picture of the one I have here tomorrow (daylight)
<wolfspraul>
didn't I include one in the last package to you?
<wpwrak>
ah, there was one odd little cable ...
<wpwrak>
full-size SD or such, if i remember right (?)
<wolfspraul>
micro to full, yes
<wpwrak>
having a look ...
<wolfspraul>
I have several types, some are PCB based, some are FPC based
<wolfspraul>
if you have the FPC-based one, then you can see how it's done inside the connector
<Ornotermes>
the biggest chance i failure i suspect so far is bending the cable near she solder points where the tin stops supporting the strands in the wire, but that is solved by hot glue
<wolfspraul>
maybe I'm too worried and actually FPC is the best
<wpwrak>
i have the fpc version. uSD to SD. yes, looks pretty tidy.
<wolfspraul>
maybe even with some shielding
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: yes I think it's neat. only needs to end in those metal heads, 2.54mm apart
<wpwrak>
some beads may do more for signal integrity than shielding. but with adam, you already have an expert on such things :)
<wpwrak>
hehe, a cable for metal heads. tuxbrain will like that :)
<wolfspraul>
what's the right term?
<wolfspraul>
pins?
<wpwrak>
they're called headers
<wolfspraul>
yeah, so basically the cable you already have, just longer and ending in 8 headers 2.54mm apart
<wolfspraul>
I still like the flexibility of the ribbon cable, oh well... :-)
<wpwrak>
yup. btw, the whole thing with N pins is called "header" (singular). they also exist in an SMT variant
<wolfspraul>
if I make the FPC 20 cm long, it won't fit in regular letters, so it has to be bent around. not good.
<wolfspraul>
if I try to keep the total size under 10cm, it looses functionality
<wpwrak>
use longer enveloppes ;) i think a total length of ~20 cm should be okay, no ?
<wpwrak>
so maybe you get 15 cm for the fpc, 5 for uSD and connectors
<wolfspraul>
I would definitely want the header to be flat, pointing in the same direction as the cable is running. again for shippability, just put into a letter...
<wpwrak>
are 4 mm flat enough ?
<wolfspraul>
don't know, but are you trying to have the header point up (90o angle), or point outward (flat)
<wpwrak>
ah, would you solder the header directly on the FPC or go via a small PCB ?
<wolfspraul>
directly onto the fpc if possible
<wolfspraul>
just look at that fpc cable/adapter you already have
<wpwrak>
i was thinking to make the coplanar with the FPC. although this introduces some bending
<wolfspraul>
kristianpaul: config.full_system build took 7.5h now, down from 9.x yesterday
<wolfspraul>
coplanar = flat?
<wolfspraul>
what bending?
<wolfspraul>
oh you mean if the breadboard sits next to the ben, for example, the fpc has to run in a curve
<wolfspraul>
but I think there are many setups we cannot predict the exact angles outside the device anyway
<wpwrak>
(curve) yes, that's what i was thinking about. connecting from the top is the most typical use for these things.
<wpwrak>
oh, you could of course leave the contacts open. no header. that way, people can solder whatever they like to have there
<wpwrak>
also solves the shipping problem ;-)))
<wolfspraul>
yes but it's harder, and desoldering is always easy anyway
<wolfspraul>
so I'd rather get some work done...
<wpwrak>
(whatever they like) e.g., they may want to have a female connector there so that they can use the (cheaper) male header on their board
<wpwrak>
or they may want to have a polarized connector, again same spacing and everything. there's a number of systems that are all compatible with the plain 100 mil header.
<wolfspraul>
sure but that is true anyway, and you can always desolder the connector that's already there
<wpwrak>
if it's not glued, too.
<wpwrak>
you probably need glue, for stability
<wolfspraul>
I think a simple male 2.54mm header to get started is fine
<wolfspraul>
don't know. I can put a plastic underneath the end of the fpc, just like on the other (microsd) side
<wpwrak>
yeah. the plastic is pretty strong.
<wpwrak>
sound good then. you just have to pick the sort of header you like. an smt variant will be a bit thicker but more standard to solder.
<wpwrak>
if you just solder a throuh-hole variant on the edge, it will be thinner but i don't know how they'll like it from the manufacturing side. well, since it's small numbers, manual soldering should be okay.
<wolfspraul>
regular letter maximum width: German 23.5 cm, Hong Kong 26 cm, USA 29.2 cm
<wolfspraul>
yeah so if the total is 20 cm or even 22 cm, no need to fold it
<wpwrak>
perfect :)
<wolfspraul>
do you think shielding the FPC is a good idea?
<wpwrak>
i don't think you need a shield that parallels the traces. not sure about EMI and cross-talk, though. the latter may benefit from a signal-GND pairing. uSD already does a little of this by sandwiching the bus clock between VDD and GND. but CMD and the data lines run openly.
<wolfspraul>
so silver coating the fpc on top and bottom is not worth it?
<wpwrak>
it would seem excessive to me
<wolfspraul>
should we make a much shorter variant too? or one that basically just exposes the 8 wires where they come out of the connector?
<wpwrak>
the latter could be useful too. 20 cm may be a bit long but the minimum useful size is probably a bit above 10 cm, so i'm not sure there's much room for a smaller variant.
<wolfspraul>
what do you mean with 'much room'? you mean no applications?
<wolfspraul>
what if someone wants to solder something more high speed, and the wires just need to be short?
<wolfspraul>
of course you may be able to cut open the fpc and get to the wires that way
<wpwrak>
a "just expose the 8 wires" variant could help here.
<wpwrak>
anyone who's planning something a bit more sophisticated can just make their own pcb anyway
<wolfspraul>
I think there are lots of small EVBs nowadays
<wolfspraul>
some in full-size SD form, that's one reason why I made this adapter you have
<wolfspraul>
but some just a small PCB, say 2x2cm, and you need to find out for the first prototyping how to hook that up (with several options offered by the evb)
<wolfspraul>
I think in many cases, making another PCB is quite a bit of work, so if we can make some and 'bridge' a few cases here and there later that's cool I think
<wpwrak>
a "just bring out the wires" adapter may help with such things. it eliminates the finicky mechanical work and you'll need some evb-specific cable anyway.
<wolfspraul>
he
<wolfspraul>
trying to find the 'one size fits all' solution :-)
<wpwrak>
ah, maybe adding an inductor and/or a polyfuse may also be a nice touch :)
<wolfspraul>
where and how?
<wpwrak>
solder them on the fpc, inrush current and short circuit protection
<wolfspraul>
maybe before the male header?
<wpwrak>
we also need to specify how much power is actually available
<wolfspraul>
where would they sit? (on which wires)
<wpwrak>
yup
<wpwrak>
just on VDD
<wpwrak>
there's of course also the issue of ESD protection. there's none in the Ben, except whatever the CPU may be able to take.
<wpwrak>
current rating would depend on how much we're actually allowed to draw
<wolfspraul>
ok I'll go from there, thanks!
<wpwrak>
good luck ! :)
<bartbes>
urandom__: ah you're finally here again
<bartbes>
(while I am)
<bartbes>
so, did you ever get around to creating a more advanced port of the snake game?
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: Improved clock stability by using a capacitative divider and found more minor http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/6e726d1
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: what the 'a' mean when you said 10 MSa/s ?
<kristianpaul>
i undertand is likle said 10 millions of samples per second..
<wpwrak>
Sa = Sample
<kristianpaul>
aa
<kristianpaul>
np
<wpwrak>
to avoid confusion with S = Siemens :-)
<kristianpaul>
but even TI uses MSPS
<kristianpaul>
okay
<kristianpaul>
SDL hackers around?
<wpwrak>
yeah, Siemens isn't the most commonly used unit. i think i've seen it once or twice outside textbooks ;-)
<wpwrak>
and there are whose people who already find it difficult to place regular greek letters into text or schematics. little do they know ;-)
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: btw how is your wpan going?
<wpwrak>
s/whose/those/
<kristianpaul>
there is a list called linux en caja, i pointed a guy to yout project
<wpwrak>
pretty good. i made a new set up boards that don't have the multiplexing bug. one has trouble with clock stability, so i changed the resistive voltage divider (the clock input can only be driven with a signal of 400-500 mV peak-to-peak)
<kristianpaul>
what,  inverted Omega? grazy people
<mth>
kristianpaul: as in libsdl? I've done some programming with it
<bartbes>
urandom__: you here yet?
<kristianpaul>
mth: hello
<kristianpaul>
mth: do you have a hello world example of basic plotting with sdl, lile sin or cos functions?
<wpwrak>
to a capacitative divider in the second board. that seems to work well. clock is stable and i can send and receive. not quite sure what the capacitative divider does to EMC, though. I guess i should find some radio that listens in the low harmonics of 16 MHz :-)
<kristianpaul>
great wpwrak :)
<mth>
not really, but I guess there are tutorial around
<mth>
see the fragment at the end for a quick overview of how to push pixels
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: (uinverted omega) and then there's the beautiful programming language called APL. not satisfied with the regular characters set, extended with greek and some other weird symbols, they invented the overprinting of characters. one can't say that APL programs aren't *dense*, though. Perl looks rather chatty and trivial in comparison.
<kristianpaul>
mth: what programinhg you did before?
<mth>
for NN it would have to be 32bpp instead of 16bpp
<mth>
mainly on openMSX (MSX emulator)
<wpwrak>
(wpan) now i need to see how far these critters can go. i hope they're doing better than their USB predecessors. (not because of USB vs. uSD but because i also improved a number of things in the RF design)
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: i think will look nice a wap with uSD and a little case for it :)
<kristianpaul>
wap/wpan
<wpwrak>
the case would be the next challenge indeed :)
<wpwrak>
well, it's not so small. the antenna is big.
<wpwrak>
heh, i'll let wolfgang and tuxbrain figure out how to produce those beasts ;-)
<kristianpaul>
sure
<kristianpaul>
and the case
<kristianpaul>
well is small
<kristianpaul>
i can print it at home :)
<kristianpaul>
hmm i have ABS in colors
<wpwrak>
ah yes, you can make a case :)
<kristianpaul>
will be cute yellow
<kristianpaul>
or strong red
<kristianpaul>
hehe
<kristianpaul>
great work wpwrak :)
<wpwrak>
you can always paint it black to follow the style of the rest of the ben :)
<kristianpaul>
hehe yesi just dont have black ABS...
<kristianpaul>
may be blueABS
<wpwrak>
thanks :) but it's not done yet. still need to see if i get any kind of range. right now, my test consist of transmission between antennas about 20 cm apart :)
<kristianpaul>
ouch
<kristianpaul>
well...
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: i guy asked me if posible to send encrypted data with the current bandwich
<kristianpaul>
what do you think?
<kristianpaul>
(talking about wpan)
<wpwrak>
of course you can encrypt. doesn't have much to do with bandwidth. the cpu should be more than fast enough
<kristianpaul>
great :)
<kristianpaul>
i now just wait you finish to start selling devices with build-in ecrypted comunication :D
<wpwrak>
the transceiver doesn't have hardware-accelerated encryption. so the cpu has to do the work. this saves us from us export restrictions for the chip :)
<kristianpaul>
btw is this first aprouch to wifi freedom but i guess next move is something more SDR that SCR ?
<kristianpaul>
SCR (software controlled radio)
<wpwrak>
SDR will be a bit of a challenge :)
<kristianpaul>
tell me to me
<kristianpaul>
GPS-SDR is really challging all this correlations are heavy for 336Mhz ben...
<kristianpaul>
well you have USRP, soway to go :)
<kristianpaul>
just an ADC DCA and the nanonote :p
<wpwrak>
heh, connect the ben to the usrp ;-)
<kristianpaul>
you tried?
<kristianpaul>
no kidding
<kristianpaul>
it will fry with that bandwich
<wpwrak>
naw. i already know that the usrp2 needs a little more to be happy than what the ben can deliver :)
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: whats the current cost for awpan board?
<kristianpaul>
10usd?
<kristianpaul>
more?
<kristianpaul>
s/awpan/wpan
<wpwrak>
you mean the BOM cost ? depends a lot on the quantity at which you buy components.
<wpwrak>
right now, you need an Atmel AT86RF230, a Wuerth 748421245 balun, 2 good 22 pF capacitors, 4 x 1 uF cap, 1 x 220 pF, 1 x 33 pF, and 2 0R resistors. all the small stuff is 0402.
<wpwrak>
one of the 0R should probably become an inductor
<urandom__>
bartbes i am here
<bartbes>
so, have you tried the new build of nlove (0.2, from.. 2 days ago, I think)
<urandom__>
i have not, i think
<bartbes>
oh noes
<bartbes>
you promised me a new version of snake when fonts arrived
<urandom__>
so where can i download the latest build?
<jegc>
wpwrak, i like nkow how much is the cost of elaboration of a ben-wpan
<jegc>
approximately
<jegc>
?
<wpwrak>
heh, we had this a moment ago :) lemme copy the answer ...
<wpwrak>
you need an Atmel AT86RF230, a Wuerth 748421245 balun, 2 good 22 pF capacitors, 4 x 1 uF cap, 1 x 220 pF, 1 x 33 pF, and 2 0R resistors. all the small stuff is 0402.
<wpwrak>
that's the BOM. prices depend a lot on how many units you make.
<wpwrak>
you also need the PCB (0.8 mm thickness)
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: yes i was setting up you for this conversation :)
<wpwrak>
for small quantities (< 25 units), the material cost should be around USD 8.
<jegc>
wpwrak, ok, thanks again
<wpwrak>
that is, unless i find a bug that needs expensive fixing :) still haven't done much analyzing of the RF characteristics
<wpwrak>
e.g., there's a 0R resistor that could become an inductor in case we need some noise suppression
<jegc>
for my need the cost is in the budget
<kristianpaul>
jegc: me curious, you got Ben?
<kristianpaul>
just sell that frerunner and buy one !
<kristianpaul>
;)
<kristianpaul>
at least you are _raelly_ using it
<wpwrak>
it's pretty cheap. you could make it a bit cheaper by replacing the balun, but i won't touch that before i'm a bit more confident about playing with RF.
<jegc>
kristianpaul, no, but if the project is approved, would buy a few
<kristianpaul>
good :)
<wpwrak>
wolfgang will be happy :)
<jegc>
kristianpaul, for now is a preproject...
<kristianpaul>
jegc: good to know you care about Ben :)
<jegc>
kristianpaul, shure, i like one, but i wait while get money :( or the project run ;)
<jegc>
wpwrak, kristianpaul, thanks for the help, now i will go out