<wpwrak>
e.g., i went through three of them for the blinkenlights. the one on the video and pictures is a first version board, but the final one has better mechanical properties. didn't actually complete the board, though. but i'll use the data for ben-wpan
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: tx power seems to make zero difference :) i set it to 251 mW and dumped some files at the PC next to my TV over wifi. so either that pc sends with more power than the access point or the tx power setting doesn't matter much
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: btw, the cnc mill is an important bit of the rapid r&d setup. not only can i do messy shapes with it, but it also does that in a fairly reproducible way.
<wpwrak>
i still need to connect board outline in kicad with heekscad, though. right now, i manually write a script that generates a toolpath with my own set of utilities. (the stuff in cam/, mainly pcb.pl)
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: you mean for the shape of the PCB?
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: well ... poking around a bit more, i see a bit of a difference. peaks are the same, but the average changes when i increase tx power. so maybe the pc's acks are just very strong.
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: yes. e.g., idbg and blinkenlights both have very precise shape specifications. ben-wpan is a bit more relaxed for now, but that won't last for long
<wpwrak>
hmm, bit-banging on and off, with a ben, only 7 MHz. a bit disappointing.
<roh>
ack
<wpwrak>
while (1) { PDDATS = 1 << 9; PDDATC = 1 << 9; }Â Â compiled with -O9
<roh>
can beat that with a sbi cbi loop on avr
<roh>
at 20mhz
<roh>
well.. its not intended as a bitpattern-sw-generator.
<wpwrak>
still ...
<wpwrak>
the loop gets unrolled a little. twice. besides that, it's just the store instructions and the jump
<wpwrak>
but the jump is probably absorbed by write buffers anyway. at least i don't see a timing difference on the scope.
<wpwrak>
but now to the fun part ... outputting the sd/mmc clock
<roh>
unroll it more.. like 10 times. who knows what the cache latency is
<roh>
just to see if it makes a difference
<wpwrak>
naw, that doesn't make sense. i should be hammering it already with something like 30 MHz or more
<wpwrak>
and there we are. a nice 16 MHz for my transceiver. bye bye crystal :)
<larsc>
with the mmc clk?
<wpwrak>
yup
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: reading the backlog. what do you mean with 'sd card friction lock' (so the card can be 'flush with the edge')?
<wpwrak>
when you insert the uSD card, you have to push it in a little to it "clicks" into place
<wpwrak>
it then also comes back out a bit
<wpwrak>
for an internal card, that's probably undesirable. so instead of this push-to-insert and push-to-release mechanism, it may be better to have a mechanism that holds the card just by friction
<wolfspraul>
why is it undesirable?
<wpwrak>
not sure if such card holders exist, though. a quick search didn't find any
<wolfspraul>
what do you mean with 'internal card'?
<bartbes>
wpwrak: well, they are in some mobile phones, so I'd guess they exist
<wpwrak>
(internal card) well, if uSD works great for extension boards, why not have one on the inside as well ?
<bartbes>
whether they're for sale is something entirely different of course
<wolfspraul>
yes sure
<wpwrak>
bartbes: naw, with this sort of thing there are no crazy limitations
<wolfspraul>
but I don't understand what the problem is with the little 'push in' to release the card
<wolfspraul>
you want a solution mechanically that essentially has no 'lock' at all. you just push it in to a certain point, and from that point you can pull it straight back out the same way it came.
<wpwrak>
(undesirable) wastes space, may be less stable (your lever grows), etc.
<wolfspraul>
right?
<roh>
wpwrak 'great for extension boards' .. well.. you have a funny view on things sometimes...  i find the mechanics rather tricky to do myself. and i got a cnc mill
<wpwrak>
yes
<roh>
;)
<wpwrak>
at least i think that may be better
<wolfspraul>
why does that waste less space?
<wolfspraul>
because you don't have to reserve a little room before you can have thicker components?
<wolfspraul>
(that space would be necessary for the push-in-distance)
<wpwrak>
if the card has a width W, then you need W+travel space for having it installed with that mechanism
<wpwrak>
yes, on the card as well. you can view if from either side
<wolfspraul>
that push-in is at most 1mm or so
<wpwrak>
sure, it's not a lot. but if you card is maybe 10 mm ...
<wolfspraul>
I think the idea is that it allows you to insert microSD cards that are fully submerged into the connector.
<wpwrak>
roh: have you made an uSD-card board too ? :)
<wolfspraul>
and then the only way to get them out it to push them further in, before they are 'kicked out'
<wolfspraul>
if you remove that mechanism, and you insert a regular microSD flash card, you may not get it out at all anymore :-)
<wpwrak>
yup. ah yes, and without the push-lock mechanism, you also don't need to be as precise
<wolfspraul>
because you have no way to grab the top and bottom side of the card
<wpwrak>
a holder without that mechanism probably has an opening that lets you grab that raised border of the card :)
<roh>
wpwrak not yet. but i know the mechanics and its _small_
<wolfspraul>
hmm
<wpwrak>
look at an uSD card. their thickness is not entirely uniform.
<wolfspraul>
I still don't totally get it.
<roh>
wpwrak i think they are intended to lock on that small nose on the side
<wpwrak>
roh: that's what we have CNC mills for :)
<wpwrak>
roh: yup
<wolfspraul>
I also know microsd connectors that open up on the top side, like in the freerunner for example
<wolfspraul>
the standard says 1.0mm I think
<roh>
the 'nonuniform' thickness is 'the traces of the pcb it consists of' and its thicker on the end, so you can grab it somewhere
<wolfspraul>
but I'm sure there are tolerances, maybe by now multiple standards, etc.
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: (open on top) they may be less extension-friendly. but it would have to be examined.
<wpwrak>
roh: i meant the latter
<wolfspraul>
yes I think so, much less extension friendly
<roh>
for the 'push only' cheapo holders which dont 'push-lock' but 'push to the end and make it flush with some border' holders
<wolfspraul>
that's why I was surprised you had some arguments against the push-in locking mechanism
<wpwrak>
roh: that's exactly what i'm looking for
<roh>
it think both mechanics exist. i like the 'more complicated' one more. gives a better 'warm and fuzzy feeling'
<wolfspraul>
I'm not sure what else you want, unless just no mechanism at all, and then I don't know how you can get a fully inserted card out.
<roh>
wpwrak i guess its a 'asian sourcing madness' for beginners job
<wpwrak>
;-))
<wpwrak>
adam to the rescue :)
<roh>
dont you have some intern for that? ;)
<wolfspraul>
roh: so you know some connectors that don't have this 'push in a little deeper to kick out' mechanism?
<roh>
wolfspraul ive seen it done.
<wolfspraul>
in that case, how do you get a regular, fully inserted, microSD card out?
<roh>
the SDCARD to µSD thingies are that way
<roh>
wolfspraul fingernail
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: basically all three types exist - top load, front load that clicks, and front load that just stays with friction. they all are designed to actually work :)
<roh>
its only in  'on the edge' use
<wolfspraul>
roh: ah OK. true! those little plastic adapters from micro to full-size.
<wpwrak>
good example
<roh>
i guess those are just contacts on the board and the frame comes from the case parts
<wolfspraul>
then they have an opening on the top
<wolfspraul>
but of course you first pull out the entire full-size SD card in that example, so you get top access
<wolfspraul>
otherwise you couldn't get the microSD out anymore
<roh>
i still dont like that socket as internal extension conn.
<wolfspraul>
(not easily at least)
<roh>
not really frickel-proof.
<roh>
cant you just make some nice layouted pads on the board?
<roh>
bigger for clumsy soldering. nice soldermask for avoiding tin bridges
<roh>
some points with ground in distance, to mount a 'extension card' with some solder like the rfm12 are also intended for 'lay on board, put some tin around, done'
<wolfspraul>
roh: let me tell you something about the 'nice pads' that are seemingly always missing. the problem seems to be that you always just realize after the fact which 'nice pads' should have been put in which place on the board.
<roh>
not meaning that one should use the rfm12 layout neccessarily. but the generic mechanics like a 'stamp'
<wolfspraul>
it seems to be very hard to predict in advance which pads will later turn out to be desperately missed, and where
<roh>
wolfspraul since it comes up so much, it seems to be something important
<roh>
*scnr* ;)
<wolfspraul>
sure sure, it's just my general feeling on this.
<wolfspraul>
it's the thing you always think about too late
<wpwrak>
i think you can't solve the pad choice problem
<wolfspraul>
for example we are working on Xue now, the camera
<wolfspraul>
who is really thinking _THAT FAR_ ahead right now?
<wolfspraul>
nobody
<roh>
the neo had it right. spi, i2c, a irq, and you can do gpio on nearly all of them if needed.
<wpwrak>
but converging on uSD as extension connector is something i like
<wolfspraul>
but I guarantee you, in 1 year, 2 years. we will all be scratching our heads "why didn't we add this or that pad here or there"
<roh>
what was missing is power. and a spec how much you can draw
<wolfspraul>
yeah, why??? :-)
<wpwrak>
make it a bit more flexible by merging an spi in, too. maybe i2c. so you can reconfigure for different boards.
<wolfspraul>
because it's very very hard to think that far into the future, although in hindsight that's still hard to accept
<roh>
wpwrak does microsd allow for i2c or an interrupt or is it just a glorified spi which cant speak spi anymore due to bad chipset design?
<wpwrak>
roh: uSD connector doesn't mean that you have to speak uSD on it
<roh>
doesnt neccessary be a real i2c 'spec' .. can be something custom... dunno if there are free pins or so
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: you and Ornotermes talked about bringing SPI and I2C to those pads as well. Does that work electrically? sounds like a totally good idea to me, if doable.
<wpwrak>
roh: just connect pins of the different engines together. e.g., MMC_CLK = SPI_SCLK = I2C_SCL
<roh>
wpwrak can you tristate unused ones?
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: here's your answer :)
<wpwrak>
roh: sure
<wpwrak>
the jz4720 is about as flexible as the 2442. no surprises there.
<roh>
wpwrak hm.. then its just a 'why that conn, and not some 0815-amp or molex conn?
<wpwrak>
in fact, it has a few nice extras. e.g., port in separated from port latch.
<wpwrak>
so if you do screw up your LED transistor, you don't need that certain kernel hack ... ;-)
<wpwrak>
roh: because you already have that connector
<roh>
i have? nope.. for nothing but flash
<wpwrak>
roh: add an internal one as well and you can a) choose where your board goes, and b) if you need an uSD, put it in the other
<roh>
and its mechanically not really nice. hard to 'make'
<roh>
true.. its nice if one can just push another flash in there
<wpwrak>
roh: i think we can figure that out :) and you can always make precision-milled adapter boards. most people will want to connect something clunky anyway, so you'll want a cable.
<roh>
hm. true.
<wpwrak>
not sure how FR4 compares to the uSD card's plastic for wear
<roh>
is there free pcb space?
<wpwrak>
in principle, it should be tougher
<wpwrak>
for the internal connector ?
<roh>
so one could 'make a real connector solderable' ?
<roh>
something more mechanically stable than microsd? doesnt need to be populated
<wpwrak>
i would make something a bit like the blinkenlights board. a bit longer. then solder some fpc on it. you can then solder the fpc to your board.
<wpwrak>
all very very simple. so you can produce a few k and just sell them by the bag.
<roh>
doesnt even need to be useable with the regular case without cutting. i'd also add the bat-pins on there. so one could make a nanonote like the 'control terminal' with a plug connector into something 'more clunky'
<roh>
like a rc-car or so.
<wpwrak>
for battery, you could make a fake battery. block of wood with contacts.
<wpwrak>
attach it to your rc killer robot woth nails ;-)
<wpwrak>
(the block, not the ben :)
<bartbes>
and make it have the contacts for uart
<wpwrak>
soon we'll need a cpld for the multiplexing ;-)
<roh>
wpwrak something like that, but think of 'the sdio, the serial, 3pins of battery... all on one connector which one can solder in the battery holder place
<wpwrak>
e.g., for ben-wpan, i'd want MMC_CLK, SCLK, MOSI and MISO together, nSS, and 2 GPIOs
<roh>
then your mechanics only need to be very simple, and the connector could even be something like 2x7 pins in 2mm spacing
<roh>
yikes
<wpwrak>
bartbes: precisely ;-))
<wpwrak>
better not to overengineer this. you could also have a path field nearby where you can rearrange the assignments by moving/placing 0Rs.
<roh>
i just got a device which got a 2x5pin 2mm header below. there is vbat, gnd, serial on cmos levels and usb on there. quite practical for debugging.
<wpwrak>
not extremely nice, but better than nothing if you need something not anticipated
<wpwrak>
plus, you could also run patch wires to the patch field and bring out completely new TPs
<roh>
aslong as its a exposed pad or resistor-end on the same side of the pcb, everything is already silver. the rest is gold and platin coverage for 'hack here' stickers
<wpwrak>
expensive stickers if they need a gold and platin substrate ;-)
<roh>
hrhr.. i sometimes think my tax-guy should use those for the money he costs me
<wpwrak>
grmbl. mail still down :-(
<roh>
anyhow.. just ideas. i'd love not to need hot-gluing those connectors into dremel-ed cases anymore
<wpwrak>
hehe :)
<roh>
jap. will talk with gismo once he is up to check with hetzner about chandra
<wpwrak>
kewl. thanks !
<wpwrak>
maybe they moved power and air conditioning first, with the machines to follow in a couple of weeks :)
<wolfspraul>
roh: yes the qi server is also moving to a new datacenter, will be offline for 9 hours they say.
<roh>
i hope its some 'move' and not a dead disk or so
<wolfspraul>
but they announce it very well 1 month in advance
<wpwrak>
dead disk would be ugly
<wolfspraul>
after the move we will have ipv6 and then I can jump into enabling that...
<wpwrak>
whee !
<wpwrak>
just in time for ben-wpan :)
<wolfspraul>
yeah
<kyak>
hi everyone
<wolfspraul>
can you extend the range to ca. 20,000 km so we can reach the server from any ben-wpan in the whole world?
<wpwrak>
no problem. lemme do the math ...
<kyak>
xiangfu: yesterday i flashed the 'clean' image i built, mkfs* still doesn't work -\
<xiangfu>
kyak: same here.
<kyak>
do you have any ideas?
<kyak>
or any feedback from openwrt?
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: about 5-10 MW output power should be enough :)
<wpwrak>
(with an omnidirectional antenna)
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<kyak>
wpwrak: will it also make me a "vegetable" for the rest of my life?
<kyak>
i mean, being near this power source
<wpwrak>
if you like your vegetables really well cooked .. :)
<roh>
5-10 MW will make sure you will not have kids. or something left of the house the device tx-ed in
<kyak>
:)
<wpwrak>
or need a pension plan for the radio operators :)
<roh>
wpwrak you won't even have to think about regulations. no need to worry!
<wpwrak>
hmm, i better get a nap. if everything goes well, then i'll have to be on standby for fedex in a few hours.
<xiangfu>
kyak: I will send email to openwrt mailing list later. see if anyone have the same problem.
<xiangfu>
(search mailing list first, then send email  :)
<kyak>
xiangfu: ok, thanks!
<wpwrak>
roh: yeah. if they want to complain about anything, they should just come to the station ;-)
<wolfspraul>
what license do you put these pictures under? do you mind if they are uploaded to the qi wiki (similar policy like wikipedia regarding pictures, i.e. cc-by ...)
<wolfspraul>
I couldn't find a license note on your page
<Ornotermes>
i have actually not read enough about cc licenses to decide yet
<wolfspraul>
ok sure no problem, take your time
<wolfspraul>
a good compromise between various extremes would be a simple CC-BY license
<wolfspraul>
for inclusion in places like Wikipedia (or the Qi wiki) you should not use the non-commercial or no-derivatives restrictions, if you want your stuff to be included that is
<Ornotermes>
the diffrence between cc by and cc by-sa is that cc by-sa requires derivated work to be released under the same license?
<wolfspraul>
Ornotermes: yes
<wolfspraul>
the -by-sa is a copyleft license
<Ornotermes>
ok
<wolfspraul>
although I am not aware of any serious enforcement activities on the side of creative commons. and without that it might as well be wishful thinking.
<wolfspraul>
for my own stuff, maybe I'll just use cc-by in the future, not cc-by-sa. I need to find out whether the -sa has any real meaning, and if it doesn't I'll remove it :-)
<Ornotermes>
well, for most my nanonote related stuff i think cc by will do
<Ornotermes>
but i will add it as an per image license
<wolfspraul>
great! with cc-by I think you make an excellent choice.
<Ornotermes>
but it's a hard pick to do
<Ornotermes>
license for avt2 is cc by-sa
<wolfspraul>
Ornotermes: why hard? what do you prefer?
<Ornotermes>
cc by gives mighty freedom for the next person, cc by-sa is a bit more restricted but the freedom reaches longer
<Ornotermes>
but i guess the sa add on con be rather weak any way
<Ornotermes>
i think i license the text as cc-by and images as cc-by-sa(for now), how does that sound?
<wolfspraul>
he :-) I never thought about it in that detail actually...
<wolfspraul>
yes it sounds good!
<Ornotermes>
well, the text can any one reproduce, nothing special... but i don't want people to just slightly edit them to change the license
<Ornotermes>
s/them/the images
<rafa>
Ornotermes: and you have a real pc keyboard.. like men should have ;)
<rafa>
real men
<Ornotermes>
rafa: i need some thing to defend my self with, you know ;P
<rafa>
haha.. yes.. i know.. i have a similar one
<rafa>
and it will survive for ages
<Ornotermes>
two things survive nuclear wars, cockroaches and Model M keyboards. ;)
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: that nobody is enforcing cc-by-sa today doesn't mean that nobody will tomorrow :) (see gpl-violations)
<Ornotermes>
hi wpwrak
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: and then it's very useful to have old stuff that has found its way into many designs. not to screw the guys who comply 99% but get 1% wrong, but to prove in court 1% of those who happily violate the full 100%.
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: some of gpl-violations.org stories are just scary. e.g., that set-top box kinda thing in austria. they treated it like something proprietary. once forced to comply with the gpl, they - among other things - produced a document listing just what they had included. it read like a "who is who" is free software.
<wpwrak>
Ornotermes: heya ! that looks much nicer now ! :)
<Ornotermes>
yes, but i probably don't have time to test it today
<Ornotermes>
but my old card fits i both my htc hero and htc tytn :)
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: of course, the things on which legal action was taken/threatened was just the tiniest portion of the whole catalog. something that's absolutely bullet-proof so that they have no choice but to admit that they did something wrong. (well, some persist until they get a kick from the judge.)
<wolfspraul>
I doubt cc will ever put any serious enforcement action behind -sa, but let's see. I'm all for -sa.
<wpwrak>
Ornotermes: hehe, i smell the beginning of a multi-billion dollars industry. breakout boards for <brand>-<model> :)
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: don't hold your hopes too high.
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: cc don't need to do anything. they don't own the copyright anyway.
<Ornotermes>
one for all i much better :)
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: again, see gpl-violations.org. it was harald who started fighting back, not the FSF.
<wolfspraul>
I have heard of several cases where handset manufacturers and/or operators were actively trying to _limit_ the possibilities of the SD port, SDIO in particular.
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: and his ammunition was netfilter and later on also initrd and dosfs.
<wolfspraul>
that's why a company like Spectec who is doing lots of SD cards will stay away from using SDIO, and instead use the simplest possible block transfers and proprietary drivers.
<wpwrak>
ah, now on uSD ;-) okay, let's drop the licensing discussion :)
<wpwrak>
none of hese restrictions matte as long as you can bit-bang ;-)
<wolfspraul>
for us it will work, I'm just explaining why in the bigger industry I think it cannot easily take off (like you said with "breakout boards for <brand>-<model>)
<wolfspraul>
many times the lack of extendability is very much a feature
<wolfspraul>
I was disappointed to find out from Spectec, for example, that they were moving away from SDIO and towards their own (of course closed) drivers.
<wpwrak>
yeah. it's a control thing. not sure if it really matter in practical term. i mean, who but a small group of freaks would really have some peripherals stick out of their designer phone ? :)
<wolfspraul>
not because they wanted to, but because the OS/kernel in the mobile device sometimes also has the function to 'manage' (=restrict) certain things
<wolfspraul>
we just see wires, and signals. That's good :-)
<wpwrak>
(the big ones on top are 100 mil, but the ones below are much narrower. a bit too narrow for ribbon cables in this case, though)
<wpwrak>
package still sitting at customs. mail still down. and the people who are on the road this morning seem to be very unhappy about the people who are on the road this morning, if all the honking is any indication :)
<Ornotermes>
wpwrak: in the future i was thinking of a tiny board in size of a uSD card vith a ffc soldered to it (to be able to fit in elecronics with sd ports under battery and such
<wpwrak>
yes, that would be perfect. it's also easier to solder :)
<Ornotermes>
but thats a bit in the future
<wpwrak>
Ornotermes: sounds good. i should have an an actual usd-attached peripheral soonish. (ieee 802.15.4 prototype board) just waiting for components ...
<kristianpaul>
gnutoo: are you planning buy a nanonote btw??
<gnutoo>
no
<gnutoo>
I've too much devices
<gnutoo>
and more incomming
<kristianpaul>
ah
<kristianpaul>
well
<gnutoo>
they sell geekphone
<kristianpaul>
your are here, thats good
<gnutoo>
and I was asked to contact them
<gnutoo>
for SHR port
<gnutoo>
or rather for evaluation of it
<kristianpaul>
i see
<gnutoo>
because he knows the device
<gnutoo>
it will be faster if he pointes me to the right sources etc...
<DocScrutinizer>
( DocScrutinizer: which of the two GND connections of the balun B1 would you call "DC feed" ?) The sym GND is the "digital" GND which may usually carry DC components from both chip outputs - it shall be connected to same GND plane as chip. The asym GND is the RF GND and should treated similar to a dipole antenna - means this GND plane should be the outermost, possibly even case shielding (my educated guess)
<DocScrutinizer>
k, have to run
<DocScrutinizer>
wpwrak: ^^^
<gnutoo>
DocScrutinizer, hi you're everywhere
<wpwrak>
hmm. all my gnds are the same there
<wpwrak>
what puzzles me is that they call one "DC feed". but i guess this would be the anymmetric one then. e.g., for phantom voltage to the antenna, no ?
<wpwrak>
(i just want to get the labels right. don't have any such fancy things in my system)
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: do you find your tiny antenna finally?
<kristianpaul>
s/tiny/sma-like
<wpwrak>
ah yes, i have two antennas now. one sma but only 2.4 GHz, the other 2.4/5 GHz but rp-sma. i also have a collection of gender benders for the latter kind of problem :)
<DocScrutinizer>
wpwrak: No the sym is the DC feed, as it would connect to VDD for open collector NPN driver
<wpwrak>
aaah, i see
<wpwrak>
thanks a bunch ! one more mystery solved :)
<DocScrutinizer>
btw the balun 'datasheet' is a parody
<DocScrutinizer>
sorry no idea what to do with that, might be useful for fab, not for EE
<DocScrutinizer>
cya
<wpwrak>
yeah. none of the balun data sheets i've come across make much sense :-(
<DocScrutinizer>
took me 30s and 2 glances to accept I can't even find real electrical pinout
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer: felt the same about it - that's why i asked you :)
<wpwrak>
hates brown-out. especially while doing layouts :-(
<mth>
wpwrak: would a UPS help to bridge the time the power is out?
<wpwrak>
installing a better power supply already would
<wpwrak>
mth: i don't quite trust ups. they often introduce their own failure modes.
<mth>
they do, but maybe less frequent than the brown-outs
<wpwrak>
my file server has an uptime of 45 days. it only notices the really bad ones. my workstation, on the other hand, never misses even the shortest one :-(
<wpwrak>
but yes, i have a better power supply already waiting. just have to install it.
<mth>
ah
<wpwrak>
hmm. two of the screens didn't come up. guess it wants another reset ...
<Ornotermes>
wpwrak: i have etched my new layout now
<wpwrak>
unclouded: supposedly yes, but i'm not so sure about that process. i find that it decays fairly quickly if i don't do anything special.
<wpwrak>
unclouded: it's so cheap and easy to make that i also don't really care :)
<wpwrak>
Ornotermes: looking more and more professional :)
<Ornotermes>
who knows where it ends ;)
<Ornotermes>
it's not that big of a step to order a panel of those, just money :P
<unclouded>
wpwrak: got to try HCl+H2O2 then.  I'm using Ammonium Persulphate at the moment
<wpwrak>
Ornotermes: with an fpc, you can solder everything on a pcb - also the header. then cover it with a bit of silicone or PUR and it'll look quite professional
<wpwrak>
unclouded: i tried ammonium persulphate once or twice but found it a bit slow
<Ornotermes>
yes, that could work, but how is the mechanical stability?
<unclouded>
maybe it is slow.  I thought I'd just made it weak
<wpwrak>
Ornotermes: for FPC and header probably better than what you have now. ah, i mean the part that goes into the prototyping board.
<wpwrak>
Ornotermes: so  uSD->FPC ... FPC->PCB->header
<wpwrak>
solder the header flat on the pcb, smt-style. that won't come off anymore.
<Ornotermes>
yeah, could be a good idea, from point of manufacture any way :)
<wpwrak>
not my day today. pc went crazy :-(
<kristianpaul>
linux crashed?
<kristianpaul>
;)
<wpwrak>
x server, maybe in cooperation with pcbnew.
<kristianpaul>
ahh but thats not bad my x crashed once at month i think
<wpwrak>
something's very wrong in my setup. since the last ubuntu upgrade, i have as many x crashes in a week as i'd expect to have in ten years ...
<kristianpaul>
move to debian to :^)
<wpwrak>
i think it's because i once manually added drivers. seems that the upgrade doesn't quite flush them out
<kristianpaul>
bbl i need reboot and test a xen image
<kristianpaul>
good now i have X running with xen thanks to debian linux-xen maitainers :)
<wolfspraul>
I was a bit confused about PHP comment syntax, used the wrong thing in an .ini file
<wpwrak>
hah, gotcha ! ;-)
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: well I'm not sure it was the cause, but since I was _just_ editing that .ini file when you reported the problem, and then the problem went away, maybe it was
<wolfspraul>
let's just keep an eye on it
<wolfspraul>
if your commits exhause memory somewhere, I will tweak more config options
<wpwrak>
ah yes, editing and running often don't go together :)