<rafa>
nebajoth: if we are happy with this I will add it to rootfs surely.
<nebajoth>
can you
<nebajoth>
rafa
<nebajoth>
explain to me
<nebajoth>
the attraction of Jlime?
<nebajoth>
is it particularly lightweight?
<nebajoth>
does it have a decent package manager?
<nebajoth>
what is the relationship between sharism and qi hardware?
<tuxbrain>
nebajoth: jlime has ben proved to work on sistems half as powerfull than BNN,  16MB RAM 133Mhz Sh3 proccessor (HP Jornada 680)
<tuxbrain>
sharims is a manufacturer a company, qi hardware is a comunity a group of entitities (companies, universities, individuals...) with the common goal of produce a 100% Copyleft Hardware (objective not achieved yet, but we are on it) and sharism has founded and is part of that community.
<nebajoth>
thanks tuxbrain
<nebajoth>
I appreciate the clarification
<nebajoth>
want to sign up for the site?
<nebajoth>
second user?
<tuxbrain>
what is handle
<nebajoth>
nick name
<nebajoth>
wait
<nebajoth>
don't sign up
<nebajoth>
I meant to remove that
<nebajoth>
hmm
<nebajoth>
it won't let me delete it
<nebajoth>
its the only one it won't let me delete
<nebajoth>
so I guess we keep it
<nebajoth>
but I changed what it was called
<nebajoth>
to "Online Name"
<nebajoth>
to distinguish it from "Real Name" which is optional
<nebajoth>
go ahead and sign up
<nebajoth>
I'm still configuring stuff
<nebajoth>
but it would be good to get two users into the system so I can test friends and such
<nebajoth>
and maybe start populating the activity stream :D
<tuxbrain>
done, waiting for the mail to confirm :) by the way, I have two nanos glamdril and stinger :P
<nebajoth>
oh shoot
<nebajoth>
two
<nebajoth>
sweet tolkien names though
<nebajoth>
um
<nebajoth>
how to handle 2
<nebajoth>
I guess ,
<nebajoth>
I changed the field to "Hostname of your Ben(s)"
<xdpirate>
it can carry both my dingoo and my nanonote, sd card cases, usb cables, everything
<nebajoth>
utility
<nebajoth>
definitely
<nebajoth>
beauty?
<nebajoth>
not so much.
<xdpirate>
who cares, it's not like i'm going to go flail my man-purse about in public
<nebajoth>
pfft
<nebajoth>
clearly not as vain as I am
<xdpirate>
clearly not ;)
<nebajoth>
:D
<nebajoth>
mine is mostly a vim machine
<nebajoth>
vim, cmus, and remind
<nebajoth>
who here has debian installed and working?
<nebajoth>
can someone pastebin the contents of their /etc/default/keyboard from a working debian install?
<nebajoth>
I think I b0rked mine
<kyak>
hell yeah i'm user #4! :)
<nebajoth>
:D kyak
<nebajoth>
FRIENDSHIP REQUESTED
<kyak>
ACCEPTED
<nebajoth>
HOORAY
<kyak>
I DON"T HAVE ZARRO FRIENDS
<tuxbrain_away>
mmm will be anyone not friend of someone? ;)
<kyak>
i will not be not a friend for noone
<kyak>
:)
<nebajoth>
I think so tuxbrain
<nebajoth>
I think certain people won't get along
<tuxbrain>
I don like admin, he is in a lot of sites and communities and only and he use to be too bossy in any community
<nebajoth>
and that if the site gets big enough
<nebajoth>
hahaha
<nebajoth>
inorite?
<nebajoth>
he is such a smelly jerk
<nebajoth>
I hate admin
<nebajoth>
he constantly kicks me off game servers too
<nebajoth>
I don't know how he keeps getting root privileges
<nebajoth>
he must be a crazy good hacker
<nebajoth>
to root all those game servers.
<nebajoth>
like that.
<nebajoth>
..
<nebajoth>
I'm tired
<nebajoth>
I'm going to bed.
<nebajoth>
good night
<kyak>
admin is a good friend of No Artist
<tuxbrain>
ok you have worth it dude, ops he gone, he is really tired
<kyak>
who is well-known for his hit "No Track Name"
<tuxbrain>
hahaahahaah
<tuxbrain>
yeah this is the really universal artist
<tuxbrain>
his song is so long he had spreaded in pieaces all over the net
<kyak>
the thing is: every time i listen to his song, i find something new
<kyak>
you know, like this is the first time is lesten to it?
<kyak>
the duration of this song is also different sometimes.. but i guess i have to blame those lame rippers
<tuxbrain>
kyak yes I know what you mean the  problem is he suffer a lot of plagiarism, a lot of times I found his caracteristich sound in a lot of other artist... a shame
<kyak>
oh! you reminded me of a question i had
<tuxbrain>
socrates call it maieutics :P
<kyak>
can copyleft hardware be called as a "GPL licensed hardware"? In this case, when other manufacturer takes NN specs and modifies it, and then sells their new device, must they release this as "copyleft" hardware, too?
<tuxbrain>
ops sorry this is if you remember the answer
<kyak>
wiki says something different about maieutics :)
<kyak>
yeah, something like this.. maieutics is asking questions to a person how already knows the answer, but doesn't know about it :)
<kyak>
s/how/who
<tuxbrain>
so let start, :P, you know about Creative Commons Share alike licence?
<kyak>
mm, not yet. I can Google, though :)
<tuxbrain>
not need to, is the the viral equivalent for other content than code to GPL
<tuxbrain>
the exact licence equivalent is CC Attribution Share Alike, you can use this contents with the restrictions you should mention the source and share the ralized work under same licence.
<kyak>
ok, i see a phrase "you may distribute the resulting work only under the same or similar license to this one"
<tuxbrain>
so production tips, eschemas, specifications, etc, etc on Copyleft Hardware is realeased under that licence so ... damn, I'm not socrates, the anwers is : yes of course
<kyak>
"you msut attribute the work" - what does that mean?
<tuxbrain>
you must indicate the source of the content  material your work is based on
<kyak>
then the answer to my question is "yes, other manufacturer can take NN specs, modify it, and then he MAY (or may not) distribute the resulting work"
<tuxbrain>
if he not distribute they work they infinge the licence
<kyak>
am i right?
<kyak>
but there is a "may" in license
<kyak>
it's not an obligation
<tuxbrain>
if they manufacture the device, they are distributing his job
<kyak>
ok, but the question is if they are required to fully open the specs of their device
<kyak>
like it was for original device, NN
<tuxbrain>
ok they can manufacture and just keep it in his selfs for ever
<kyak>
i didn't understand
<tuxbrain>
just joking
<tuxbrain>
is the case of manufacturation without distribute , so it keep it on his wharehause.
<kyak>
that's why i didn't understand :)
<kyak>
so let's say that manufacturing = further distributing, in most cases
<kyak>
are they required according to the license to provide the full "source code" of their modified device?
<kyak>
or they can laugh in your face instead?
<tuxbrain>
wolfgang:help! a clever guy is asking interesting questions!
<kyak>
interesting questions? maybe! clever guy? not at all! :)
<tuxbrain>
clever than me :)
<tuxbrain>
not such meritorious indeed
<kyak>
no-no, your brain is so tux, i can't compete :)
<tuxbrain>
ok, wolfgang is out so I will try to do my best :) schematics are also distributed under that licence, to create a modified product you need to modify the schematics, so produt is builded upon the schematisc if you distribute the product you should distribute the schematics and due you distribute the schematics you should attribute the orignal schematics your work is based . TADA!
<tuxbrain>
affining a little more:schematics are also distributed under that licence, to create a modified product you need to modify the schematics,  produt is builded upon the schematisc you modify that inherits the share alike and attribution, if you distribute the product you should point to your own schematics as source  and due you distribute the schematics you should attribute the orignal schematics your work is based . TATATADA!
<wolfspraul>
kyak: what is your question?
<kyak>
again, i MAY distribute schematics which is based on original share-like licensed schematics
<kyak>
i as well may NOT distribute it
<kyak>
is that right?
<wolfspraul>
kyak: can you tell me in sequence what you plan to do?
<wolfspraul>
1. you take existing schematics/gerber/bom/whatever
<wolfspraul>
2. you produce your own product, and sell it
<wolfspraul>
3. your product is exactly the same as the current one, or with improvements?
<wolfspraul>
and then what?
<kyak>
wolfspraul: i have no plans at all :) this is just a theory. but you described it right
<wolfspraul>
sure it's theory
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<kyak>
3. my product is a modified version of original product
<wolfspraul>
is your product exactly the same or with improvements?
<wolfspraul>
ok, but you want to keep your improvements secret?
<wolfspraul>
so when I email you "tell me more about what you improved", you just won't reply
<wolfspraul>
is that what you are saying?
<kyak>
yes. or even better, keep the whole device secret
<wolfspraul>
ok, so I don't know much about ShareAlike enforcement
<wolfspraul>
the FSF is very much interested in GPL enforcement, that's why they like gpl-violations.org so much
<wolfspraul>
I don't know how much Creative Commons is interested in ShareAlike enforcement, you would need to ask them
<wolfspraul>
we are product people
<wolfspraul>
we just put our 'stuff' under a cc-by-sa license because we _think_ it will help to remind people of what kind of behavior we consider cool, and we consider uncool
<kyak>
a question is IF the license is violated in this case
<wolfspraul>
is it enforceable? is it enforceable in this particular case (hardware manufacturing), don't know
<wolfspraul>
yeah
<wolfspraul>
need to ask Creative COmmons
<wolfspraul>
they created the SHareAlike license and one would hope that they want to make it a strong license
<wolfspraul>
the FSF is proud when they win some court case where the GPL plays a rol
<wolfspraul>
role
<kyak>
but i though that the "may" word in the license is pretty much explanatory
<wolfspraul>
ok but it's a legal question
<wolfspraul>
ask Creative Commons
<wolfspraul>
are there any cases of known ShareAlike infringement, and resulting court victories?
<wolfspraul>
don't know
<wolfspraul>
the GPL is very much court proven
<kyak>
ok, thank you both guys :)
<wolfspraul>
but let me also add my 2cents
<kyak>
GPL afaik can go suck somebody's balls in Russia
<wolfspraul>
very possible
<wolfspraul>
I am writing to you from China
<kyak>
Justice Ministry is not accepting GPL (or something like this)
<kyak>
but originally i had this idea because of the following
<tuxbrain>
kyak I'm CC member I will forward you question to the CC, I also curious on the answer
<wolfspraul>
so first of all, most people that spend their whole time trying to find out how they can become good parasites will never ever achieve anything
<wolfspraul>
I think it messes with your brain
<wolfspraul>
I know many creative people, and they seriously never ever even spend 1 second thinking about this kind of thing.
<wolfspraul>
they just create cool shit
<kyak>
there are a lot of companies in China that steal here and there, from each other and from everyone. They can take NN as a starting point
<wolfspraul>
so for business people, also the question really goes the other way round - who has the balls to actually produce something?
<wolfspraul>
I think any sort of GPL or ShareAlike infringement is one the lesser concerns you have in that case
<wolfspraul>
nobody will do it
<wolfspraul>
and if they would at least I wouldn't care
<wolfspraul>
do you?
<wolfspraul>
I focus on making great products. I wake up, start working, start having fun.
<kyak>
why wouldn't they do it?
<kyak>
developing a device is quite an effort
<kyak>
in this case it was done free for them
<wolfspraul>
I put my stuff under GPL and CC-BY-SA because it makes me feel good, and I hope to encourage others to do the same.
<wolfspraul>
well like you said in China everything is 'stolen' anyway
<kyak>
let's put it like this
<wolfspraul>
actually it's not stolen as this has a negative implication, but in China it is just natural to reuse things
<kyak>
putting your device under open license makes it avaialble for legal stealing..
<wolfspraul>
ouch
<wolfspraul>
very twisted thinking
<kyak>
in other case, they would hust illegally stole it from you
<wolfspraul>
I hope it makes people feel joy and fun and contribute.
<kyak>
yes it does
<wolfspraul>
all this stealing stuff is just not my world
<kyak>
i'm speaking about "other side" :)
<wolfspraul>
I like those licenses because they encourage sharing.
<wolfspraul>
sharing not stealing
<wolfspraul>
let's stop stealing from each other, let's start sharing
<wolfspraul>
much better
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wolfspraul>
where is the 'other side'?
<wolfspraul>
who?
<kyak>
parasite companies.. who get all you development work for free, put nothing in it, just produce it, sell and profit
<wolfspraul>
who is that? are they successful?
<kyak>
it depends on device
<wolfspraul>
bottom line - this doesn't exist
<kyak>
i'm into car security systems.. so we have this system, let's call it X. it's proprietary and closed. We've put a lot of development effort into it. Now we produce it and profit. The other day, another company is stealing from us, and selling much cheaper (because they don't have to put development cost inside the price)
<wolfspraul>
at least not in the way that you envision it
<kyak>
and they PROFIT
<wolfspraul>
is this your theory or did this happen to you?
<kyak>
IF we had shared it
<kyak>
IF
<wolfspraul>
I really doubt all that.
<kyak>
they wouldn't have croseed the law
<kyak>
so we would have helped them
<wolfspraul>
be bold, let's start sharng
<wolfspraul>
sharing
<kyak>
this is a real story, btw.
<wolfspraul>
sharing is better
<wolfspraul>
normally what gets stolen from you are customers
<wolfspraul>
often in the form of your competitor hiring your sales people from you
<wolfspraul>
those are nasty things
<kyak>
sure.. this are lost customers.. and lost money
<wolfspraul>
did you share your technology?
<wolfspraul>
I don't get it.
<wolfspraul>
how was it stolen?
<wolfspraul>
is your story a hypothetical story or real one?
<wolfspraul>
if I had a real business, and someone wanted to hurt me, they would go for the money. They would try to hire my sales people. Maybe my marketing people.
<kyak>
we can only guess. maybe from the factory in China, maybe from our own company. Who knows?
<kyak>
the real one
<wolfspraul>
so suddently this other company shows up and they have a product that has the same technology as yours
<kyak>
so i just hope you understand me
<wolfspraul>
right?
<kyak>
right
<wolfspraul>
and then your customers start buying from the other company
<kyak>
exact clone
<wolfspraul>
hmm
<wolfspraul>
isn't that a good way to proove that you should go open in the first place
<kyak>
yes, our potential customers are byuing it
<kyak>
because it's cheaper
<wolfspraul>
that proprietary doesn't work?
<wolfspraul>
maybe you focused on the wrong thing
<wolfspraul>
you focused on proprietary technology, but you actually weren't able to enforce/execute the closedness?
<kyak>
imagine it would've been shared. what then?
<wolfspraul>
then you would have never made the decision to focus on the wrong thing in the first place (in that story)
<wolfspraul>
maybe you would have focused on lowest price first
<wolfspraul>
not on best (closed) technology, which then was stolen anyway
<kyak>
that's another problem that secret was stolen
<wolfspraul>
if you believe in closed technology, you better close it well :-)
<kyak>
agreed
<wolfspraul>
yes but that's what I am saying
<wolfspraul>
you just didn't execute well
<wolfspraul>
if you believe in lock-down, you better have a strong lock!
<kyak>
ok,ok
<kyak>
the questions remains
<wolfspraul>
if it's broken, now you come to me, who does not believe in lock-down, and complain?
<wolfspraul>
I believe in open
<kyak>
imagine it would've been shared. what then?
<wolfspraul>
so I can focus on customer satisfaction and lowest cost from day 1.
<wolfspraul>
I don't think what has happened to you can happen to me.
<wolfspraul>
I already said it - then you would not have focused on the closedness of your product in the first place.
<wolfspraul>
maybe you would have focused on customer satisfaction and lowest price.
<wolfspraul>
and then if that other company comes they cannot steal your business
<wolfspraul>
I am indeed not focusing on the closedness of what I build.
<wolfspraul>
it's open and shared from day 1
<wolfspraul>
(although not 100% yet, we are working on that)
<kyak>
i'll tell you what would happen. We would've lost profit from the day 1. Not the the day Y, when it was stolen. And besides, the parasite company couldn't be sued in this case
<wolfspraul>
ah, so you are suing them now and you believe that will recover your losses?
<wolfspraul>
then all should be fine
<wolfspraul>
if you would have lost profits from day 1, you would have done things differently from day 1
<wolfspraul>
that's what we are doing here at copyleft hardware
<kyak>
the loss cannot be recovered.. in this case, it's all lost already
<wolfspraul>
do you think the lawsuit will help you recover it?/
<kyak>
NO
<wolfspraul>
ok
<wolfspraul>
maybe you should have done the technology open from day 1 :-)
<kyak>
there is no lawsuit, btw
<kyak>
we just have legal rights to stop this shit at customs
<kyak>
that's all
<wolfspraul>
oh
<wolfspraul>
hopefully that works out for you
<wolfspraul>
customs is often in the middle of such conflicts and quite often to many arguments (read: bribes)
<wolfspraul>
anyway, go open
<wolfspraul>
that's the way to go
<wolfspraul>
I think
<wolfspraul>
if you plan to produce any of our copyleft hardware stuff, please do so
<kyak>
i think nn is not cloned by some noname chiness manufacturer only because it's not popular.. there's no profit
<wolfspraul>
it you don't share your improvements back, I think at least socially that's very uncool
<zear>
wait, someone's clonning the nanonote?
<wolfspraul>
whether we can force you legally into anything is then a question for GPL/CC-BY-SA and the local legal system
<wolfspraul>
nah
<wolfspraul>
all just 'what if'
<zear>
ah
<wolfspraul>
I would love someone to clone it.
<wolfspraul>
I think it will take a few more years.
<zear>
there is the 1GB chinese version already :)
<wolfspraul>
I'm all easy here, I am a 'noname chinese manufacturer'
<wolfspraul>
I could easily beat them in price even.
<wolfspraul>
you guys don't know how lazy and greedy chinese companies actually are.
<kyak>
this is the thing.. there is always a "chinese version" avaialable (of course only popular devices)
<zear>
but since gpl is violated whole the time in china, i guess it's good that you have something in case nn hardware get's cloned
<kyak>
< wolfspraul> you guys don't know how lazy and greedy chinese companies actually are. - we know
<wolfspraul>
kyak: I guess you problem is that you cannot beat them in price.
<kyak>
sure we can't
<zear>
btw, how are the nn sales after the slashdot article?
<kyak>
we put EFFORT in developemnt
<wolfspraul>
I can.
<kyak>
they didn't
<kyak>
we HAVE to compensate for these efforts in price
<kyak>
do you understand it?
<wolfspraul>
zear: it's beautiful
<wolfspraul>
we sold about 70 or so
<kyak>
sorry, dinner,.. be back :0
<wolfspraul>
david some more
<zear>
wolfspraul, wow, that's impressive :D
<wolfspraul>
zear: if you can help let's continue with blogs and stuff
<wolfspraul>
yes
<wolfspraul>
I'm a total believe in bottom-up, I am so happy about each individual sale.
<gbraad>
thanks wolfspraul, was a great meeting... 'awesome' ;-)
<wolfspraul>
zear: so total we sold about 750 to 800 now.
<wolfspraul>
bit hard to say some are always in stock here and there.
<wolfspraul>
but what's most important is the various hacking efforts that are in motion.
<wolfspraul>
and blogging
<wolfspraul>
good seeds
<wolfspraul>
OpenWrt, JLiMe, Debian, etc.
<wolfspraul>
so many things
<wolfspraul>
maybe gbraad will make some Fedora moves, now or later :-)
<wolfspraul>
zear: you have some large event in Poland this year, don't you?
<wolfspraul>
Wikimania?
<zear>
but i guess all that counts from financial side is that you get rid of the whole batch (how many units that is, 1000?)
<wolfspraul>
any chance we can be present there?
<wolfspraul>
we made 1000, yes
<zear>
i know about wikimania, but i rather won't be there
<wolfspraul>
no most important to me is to get good roots into the ground with the free model
<zear>
it's expensive, it's on the other side of the country, and i don't like wikipedia that much lately
<wolfspraul>
so 2.6.34 upstream effort is awesome
<wolfspraul>
I need to work on GPL licensed production testing software. that's a big piece that is still missing.
<freespace>
how many of the thousand has been sold?
<wolfspraul>
750-800
<freespace>
that's not bad
<zear>
they are forcing the grammatically incorrect, but pro-feminist forms
<wolfspraul>
need to make more soon, but also need to be careful because we are working towards Ya
<freespace>
yeah
<freespace>
i mean
<freespace>
ya
<freespace>
\pun
<zear>
the wikipedia guys, i mean
<freespace>
i will show myself the door
<wolfspraul>
so ideally we don't run out of stock with Ben, and have exactly 0 on the day that we start selling Ya :-)
<wolfspraul>
but Ya is still at least 6-9 months out, and I enjoy the Ben ride right now
<wolfspraul>
with that I mean the emerging free software and content on it
<wolfspraul>
so want to let that grow some more
<wolfspraul>
more quality
<freespace>
nod
<freespace>
hopefully mine arrives tomorrow
<wolfspraul>
thank you for ordering one!
<freespace>
np :)
<zear>
wolfspraul, is there an approximate price for the ya already?
<zear>
i'm thinking of getting one once it's out (or there are dev models available), but only if the price is comparable to the Ben
<wolfspraul>
oh no worries
<wolfspraul>
first of all I can already guarantee you the price will not increase
<wolfspraul>
that's not hardware industry to me
<wolfspraul>
there is only one way: down
<wolfspraul>
so maybe it will be 99 USD at the beginning
<zear>
ah, great to hear that
<wolfspraul>
maybe we will still offer Ben in parallel for a while, for 69 or whatever
<wolfspraul>
I want to drive all this down.
<zear>
so even with usb host and other improvements the price will not raise?
<wolfspraul>
of course not
<zear>
great
<wolfspraul>
this is a hardware startup
<wolfspraul>
price goes down, only down
<zear>
btw, rafa got some success with the jlime port for ben
<zear>
he'll prepare a nice standalone toolchain for me so i can port all the dingux stuff
<wolfspraul>
realistically I think I have to start Ya with 99
<wolfspraul>
maybe we can offer a little more margin to distributors at the beginning, to strengthen the distribution network
<wolfspraul>
right now all distributors essentially work for free, to help launch our copyleft hardware dream :-)
<zear>
btw i know it was discussed at least 100 times before, but i don't remember if you guys decided ya is gonna have a way of wireless communication
<wolfspraul>
he he
<wolfspraul>
I don't know, really
<zear>
heh
<wolfspraul>
of course we want it
<wolfspraul>
many people seem to like the SlowFi idea
<zear>
judging from the comments from the polish linuxnews article, that's what people demand
<wolfspraul>
and many people want Wi-Fi
<wolfspraul>
sure
<wolfspraul>
but we are building a free house
<wolfspraul>
the proprietary plasma tv is nice, but would ruin the character of our house
<zear>
they would buy it if there was a wifi (but of course for me it can be even a proprietary wireless chip, just something to have net on it)
<arctanx>
wolfspraul: It's interesting... your description of your ideals for licensing suggests you're more interested in a BSD sort of model than copyleft. The reason the GPL spent time thinking about how companies could screw projects over was to avoid things like the X server being hacked by vendors and the users not having the same freedoms to modify/share/etc.
<gbraad>
SlowFI is Near-Realtime and reliable... good enough!
<wolfspraul>
arctanx: hmm, I like copyleft
<arctanx>
Enforceability of a strong viral copyleft is important if the openness of the platform needs to extend to the end-user in all cases
<zear>
wolfspraul, that's a good point you have there
<wolfspraul>
but I'm not a lawyer, so I cannot answer enforceability questions, definitely not globally
<wolfspraul>
I am in China guys.
<arctanx>
If you just want the first-level developers using the platform to have the freedom, as you've described it will work fine
<wolfspraul>
those are all very theoretical ideas for me, in my daily life.
<wolfspraul>
even the whole patent system, only applies to maybe 20% of the world population
<arctanx>
I understand, you're a creator, not a lawyer :)
<wolfspraul>
not just software patents, all patents
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wolfspraul>
I don't like the BSD license.
<arctanx>
I really like the questions kyak is asking because when the project is taking off, people interested more in money than openness will start asking them too
<wolfspraul>
in fact companies that choose BSD over GPL on purpose mostly have a strategy to kill copyleft and free software in the end.
<arctanx>
If someone can think of some answers, that's great
<wolfspraul>
so I do exactly the other way round
<wolfspraul>
arctanx: those questions are totally theoretical
<wolfspraul>
if copyleft can only take off because it is enforceable, then it will never take off
<wolfspraul>
I think once it becomes cool, and the culture of copyleft and sharing becomes better understood, then it will take off.
<wolfspraul>
you can ask me: send me a list of all the vendors you are buying from
<wolfspraul>
send me the prices of components that you buy
<wolfspraul>
and I will give it to you
<wolfspraul>
in fact I will say "damned this should be on the internet so I don't have to answer the mail manually"
<wolfspraul>
the only reason I don't have 'open accounting' yet is that we have to figure out how to keep the privacy related things like individual salaries or compensations anonymized.
<arctanx>
I'm not doubting your intentions of openness at all. I just think that enforceability and virality is a defining feature of "copyleft"
<wolfspraul>
yes, but it is not enforceable for 80% of the world's population anyway
<arctanx>
As opposed to a free sharing community in building great hardware
<wolfspraul>
anyway, like I said. if copyleft only takes off because it's enforceable, then it won't take off.
<arctanx>
You're right, it depends on more than that
<wolfspraul>
we need to explain why hiding secrets, hoarding knowledge, keeping our neighbors and friends in the dark, is just not the right thing to do going forward
<arctanx>
We're getting to the point of agreeing with each other differently, so I'll leave it at that :)
<freespace>
heh, imagine MS wanting to take over this market by trying to get windows to run on it
<freespace>
(like they did with the eeePCs)
<zear>
yeah, good luck windows :D
<freespace>
maybe an old version of NT
<zear>
even if they get some version of windows to run on mips, they won't be able to port all the programs for it, because 90% are proprietary software by other companies
<freespace>
yep
<zear>
that's pretty much the nail in their coffin
<freespace>
(ph and wince)
<wolfspraul>
zear: nice, I see this is in India
<wolfspraul>
(sorry wrong nick, I meant zedstar)
<zear>
and i can't believe they still didn't do the "always on top" option for the windows
<wolfspraul>
do Sujan and Rakhat from IDA Systems know each other? should I send a quick introduction email?
<wolfspraul>
typos, typos, I mean "Rakshat"
<zear>
when i have to work with windows sometimes and there's multiple windows on the screen, it's a madness
<freespace>
is it still missing from vista/7?
<zear>
i was told that
<zedstar>
wolfspraul an intro would be good thanks
<zear>
though haven't tested it myself
<freespace>
ok
<zear>
but i asked the users of both vista and 7 and they told me there's no such feature
<zear>
freespace, google lists some 3rd party programs for "always on top" for vista/7 so i guess it's missing it from the default config
<freespace>
ok, thanks :)
<kyak>
back
<kyak>
wolfspraul: anyways, just to be clear. I'm totally with you guys on this. It is one the reason i've ordered NN, because of it's copyleft nature
<kyak>
*one of the reasons
<wolfspraul>
great
<kyak>
just wanted to clarify some things to myself, but it only got more complicated :) it's always like that when it's about licensing/money/questiosn like that
<wolfspraul>
if you want to build a business out of it, please do so
<wolfspraul>
(although it's very risky right now, too risky :-))
<wolfspraul>
nobody here will complain about 'stealing' because we set this up to be about sharing from day 1
<wolfspraul>
in fact, I need to say, not 100% are copyleft yet
<wolfspraul>
but this is not the last trick I keep hidden up my sleeves, these are the parts we work on freeing next
<wolfspraul>
such as production testing software, case design, CPU
<kyak>
i don't want to build a business out of anything, i'm not a business man :) i'd prefer doing what i like, and this is not business
<kyak>
speaking about my NN parcel, i'm starting to get worried
<kyak>
it arrived (imported) on the 5th of June in the morning
<kyak>
and not even at the customs yet
<wolfspraul>
kyak: which country is this?
<wolfspraul>
(that it's imported into)
<kyak>
it's Russia
<kyak>
but there was a weekend in between, so i'll just wait..
<wolfspraul>
hmm
<wolfspraul>
Russian customs can be a problem, let's hope for the best
<kyak>
yep
<Tomy>
hi i need to install graphic card, but black screen is showing up, any solution??
<kyak>
do you think we need a bot in this channel?
<kyak>
keeping seen/stats database for instance, maybe something else useful
<kyak>
or maybe its here already? :)
<kyak>
!seen *
<kyak>
not yet
<nebajoth>
yessss
<nebajoth>
botttt
<kristianpaul>
qi-commits: ?
<kristianpaul>
qi-eggs: ?
<kyak>
qi-qi :)
<nebajoth>
qibot
<methril_work>
qibot +1
<kristianpaul>
abosolutelly
<larsc>
qibot -1
<kyak>
so i guess it's a "yes" for the bot.. it's never too late to decide on a name
<nebajoth>
it can always be changed later
<nebajoth>
I think people will adapt to the change
<nebajoth>
who's putting it up?
<kyak>
i can do it
<nebajoth>
I'd think it would make most sense on the same machine as our VCS master?
<nebajoth>
which brings up the question
<nebajoth>
what are we putting into VCS as a community?
<kyak>
mmm. then guess i;m not doing it :)
<nebajoth>
do we have anything centralizing development?
<nebajoth>
I bet we don't.
<nebajoth>
I bet the sharism dudes have something like subversion
<nebajoth>
and a bunch of projects in that
<nebajoth>
but that we don't have write access
<nebajoth>
ok, we need a forge
<nebajoth>
to centralize projects
<nebajoth>
or
<nebajoth>
hmmm
<nebajoth>
launchpad, anyone?
<nebajoth>
sorry, I know this feels like a derailing from bot
<nebajoth>
but the bot will mostly be for reporting commits, I imagine
<kyak>
it doesn't have to be on the same machine
<nebajoth>
no it doesn't
<nebajoth>
could just cron a check
<kyak>
it can pull information via rss, or something else
<nebajoth>
yeah sure
<nebajoth>
well, what do you have to host it on?
<kyak>
my personal server
<kyak>
which is supposed to be 24/7.. but. .this is a home connection, so everything can happen
<nebajoth>
been there
<nebajoth>
I'll host it
<nebajoth>
I haz ISP infrastructure
<nebajoth>
I prefer supybot
<nebajoth>
as its what I've used in the past
<nebajoth>
anybody have a distinct preference for something else?
<kyak>
i have experience with eggdro ponly
<nebajoth>
eggdrop is perl, no?
<kyak>
nope, it supports tcl scripts
<kristianpaul>
nah
<kristianpaul>
bots..
<kristianpaul>
better humans :)
<kyak>
and actually, eggdrop is considered to be "industry standard" for irc bots :)
<nebajoth>
ok
<nebajoth>
eggdrop it is
<kristianpaul>
at least it dint speak with no reason
<kyak>
so how do we proceed?
<kristianpaul>
oh egg looks serius C coded bot
<kyak>
yes, it's a bot with a long and glorious history :)
<nebajoth>
sudo yum search eggdrop
<nebajoth>
woop
<nebajoth>
1.6.19-4.el5
<nebajoth>
ancient?
<nebajoth>
then again
<kyak>
no, pretty decent
<nebajoth>
eggdrop hasn't seen a release since 2008
<nebajoth>
I assume that's because its rock solid
<kyak>
[ 14 May 2009 ]: Eggdrop1.6.19+ctcpfix released
<nebajoth>
not because there's a lack of developers
<kristianpaul>
Stable release 1.6.19+ctcpfix  (May 14, 2009; 12 months ago (2009-05-14))
<nebajoth>
pwnt
<nebajoth>
ok
<nebajoth>
there an rp?
<nebajoth>
m?
<nebajoth>
oh
<nebajoth>
soz, that's what this is probably
<nebajoth>
ok installed.
<nebajoth>
:P
<kyak>
nebajoth: i'd prefer building from source. There are seen and stats modules which have to be compiled anyway.. Besides, there's an UTF-8 and SSL patch
<nebajoth>
christ
<nebajoth>
you sure you don't want to install a nice clean python bot?
<kyak>
as long as you're doing it, you should do what's more convenient and known to you
<kristianpaul>
infobot?
<zedstar>
eggdrop is in openwrt so u can run it from a dedicated ben ;)
<kristianpaul>
or a router
<kristianpaul>
hmm
<nebajoth>
hold on
<nebajoth>
that's brilliant, zedstar
<nebajoth>
we should utterly run
<nebajoth>
qibot on a ben
<nebajoth>
ofc, that requires a ben permanently tethered to a larger computer
<nebajoth>
tuxbrain: care to donate one to the cause?
<nebajoth>
kyak: what about building an openwrt opkg of eggdrop with the UTF-8 and SSL patch, and the seen and stats modules?
<kyak>
i tried it once for my linksys wrt54-gl, but it failed for some reason i don't remember
<tuxbrain>
what's the reason to have a bot?
<nebajoth>
try again and keep a copy of your .bash_history for nanohacks?
<kyak>
but i'll try again when i get NN here :)
<nebajoth>
it provides glue between chanmembers, and relevant updates from the outside world can be posted here in a timely manner
<nebajoth>
like new rootfs releases
<nebajoth>
kyak: awesome
<qwebirc62961>
hello could you help me where can i use graphical interface with nanonote ?
<zear>
xdpirate, hey there (too lazy to look up nowregian for "hey" ;P)
<xdpirate>
rofl ;p
<xdpirate>
it's just hallo or hei :P
<zear>
and "witam" is "I welcome (you)". It sounds more private. If you want to say "Welcome on this channel", i'd use "witaj", which is more "We all welcome you here" :)
<zear>
polish is funny ;P
<xdpirate>
ah nice :P
<xdpirate>
sounds complicated enough
<zear>
yeah, i recently read some text book for foreigners that want to lear polish
<zear>
and i realized that polish is really complicated
<zear>
*learn
<zear>
the "m" in witam stands for "I", and the "j" in witaj stands for "you"
<zear>
both are correct, though "witam" sounds more like you and you only want to greet me
<coat>
is there a troubleshooting section somewhere for the nanonote?
<emeb>
FedEx just delivered my NanoNote. Cute!
<zear>
coat, i believe this channel works as such a place :)
<coat>
awesome :)
<coat>
well, i just received my nanonote yesterday, and everything's been working great.  i left it on and plugged in during lunch, came back and it won't turn on
<zear>
hmm.. isn't that the issue kristoffer experienced with his nanonote?
<coat>
the only response i get is when i unplug the usb cable and plug it in, the red LED turns on for a split second and turns off
<zear>
that indicates the hardware should be fine
<zear>
i'd say reflash the firmware
<zear>
you probably have an ancient version of it anyway
<coat>
i can't seem to get it to boot into usb mode though :/
<zear>
maybe it's a bug that was already fixed, as i never experienced a similar behaviour with my nanonote
<coat>
er usb boot mode i mean
<zear>
ok, do you have the carbonized rubber button in the box?
<zear>
you'll need to use either it, or something else to short circuit two pins on the back of the nn (behind the battery slot) to put it into the usb boot mode
<coat>
that's what that was :) ...left it at home.  does it need to be shorted the entire time, or just when turning the device on?
<zear>
it needs to be shorted ONLY if you want to put it into usb boot mode
<zear>
it is a kind of a service mode
<zear>
you need to switch it to that mode only if you want to flash the device
<zear>
i remember someone having a similar problem lately, i told him to reflash the firmware and he had no more problems since then
<coat>
ok cool.  yeah i probably have an old version of the firmware then
<zear>
if when you plug your NN to the usb line and the led turns on, but the screen stays black, it means the u-boot (bootloader) doesn't work
<zear>
you need to reflash it
<emeb>
quick question - how to remove the "OpenWrt" splash screen and get full-screen text console?
<zear>
emdete, ctrl+l
<emeb>
cool - thanks!
<zear>
coat, need help with putting the device into usb boot mode?
<coat>
my high school electronics class is failing me, but would a piece of metal (like a paper clip) be enough to short the pins? i don't have the carbonized rubber with me
<zear>
i was told paperclip is not enough, but a rolled up aluminium foil should do the job
<zear>
but again, i was only told that, i don't know much about electrical conductivity
<sdschulze>
It's not a problem of conductivity.
<nebajoth>
I did it with aluminum foil
<nebajoth>
I had to press hard
<sdschulze>
(would be very weird if a lot of current needed to flow there)
<nebajoth>
but it worked great
<sdschulze>
But it might be a problem of contact.
<nebajoth>
small piece pressed flat against the two contacts
<nebajoth>
my bare finger
<nebajoth>
touching the aluminum
<nebajoth>
and it worked
<nebajoth>
and it didn't shock me :P
<nebajoth>
at least not so that I noticed
<nebajoth>
and my Ben still functions very nicely
<zear>
oh so a bare finger should be enough?
<nebajoth>
and I did it like 15 times
<nebajoth>
yep
<zear>
because i have a lot of problems shorting it with the rubber button
<zear>
1/30 tries work
<nebajoth>
it wasn't 100% with the aluminum either
<nebajoth>
but I had better luck
<zear>
i think my finger should be more accurate as i can feel when i touch the pins
<nebajoth>
more like 50%
<nebajoth>
yes exactly
<sdschulze>
The rubber solution is probably the best.
<nebajoth>
and if you clamp against the plastic above the function keys you can get a good grip
<nebajoth>
and press quite firmly
<zedstar>
just boot holding down U to go to usb boot mode
<nebajoth>
it doesn't work if the bootloader is corrupt
<coat>
just raided the office break room looking for aluminum foil, but no luck.  might be a sign i should get back to work
<nebajoth>
haha
<sdschulze>
some short and thin copper cable maybe?
<zedstar>
shipped with corrupt bootloader?
<zear>
zedstar, who knows, i remember early reports by kristoffer about a similar behaviour
<zear>
(he left his nanonote for ~ 1 week and it was non functional afterwards)
<coat>
it's been kinda funky since i got it.  sometimes couldn't turn it back on without either taking the battery out or pressing the reset button
<zear>
and recently someone has an exact problem as coat with his newly bought nn
<zear>
and reflashing the firmware helped for him
<zear>
(or at least we got no new complains)
<coat>
did he have the same issue with LED if you know?  briefly turning on and then back off when you plug the usb cable in
<zear>
the led turns on when it charges the battery
<zear>
when there's no battery, or the battery is fully charged, it just blinks and then stays off
<coat>
oh ok good
<zear>
and when your bootloader is screwed up, that's exactly what happens
<emeb>
interesting that there's an httpd running, but nothing in the /www dir so when you browse to it you get a 404.
<emeb>
Should at least put a copy of the splash screen in there...
<nebajoth>
tuxbrain: ping
<zear>
emdete, i believe it's a leftover from the owrt
<xdpirate>
how many characters can you fit on a line in the default openwrt console? and how many lines?
<xdpirate>
(still don't have my nanonote)
<zear>
xdpirate, what's the current status of the delivery?
<xdpirate>
it's in my closest city, it will be here tomorrow
<zear>
oh and if you plan to carry it in your pocket, remove the rubber legs
<zear>
as they like to fall off like in the dingoo
<xdpirate>
lol k
<zear>
(though they are more firmly attatched)
<zear>
but i already lost 3
<xdpirate>
care to check the console for me zear? line width x height?
<zear>
yep, just need to charge the battery first, one moment
<xdpirate>
in terms of characters fit
<xdpirate>
awesome
<zear>
it's less than the standard terminal, that's for sure
<xdpirate>
yeah
<xdpirate>
my 18 character line length word wrap in dex is looking ugly with the newer pokemon entries
<xdpirate>
so i'll just wrap it to the bens width :)
<zear>
39x15
<xdpirate>
lolwut, not 40? :P
<xdpirate>
thanks man :)
<zear>
i think it's 39
<xdpirate>
ah the last spot is occupied by the blank space between the characters
<zear>
unless i can't count, which is possible ;)
<xdpirate>
320 (screen width) / 8 (font width) = 40 (characters fit, without space between them)
<xdpirate>
but then again there might be a different font and stuff
<xdpirate>
thanks zear, i'll use 39 :)
<zear>
no prob ;)
<coat>
is there a way to change the console font size, or do you need to use a framebuffer?
<zear>
yes there is a way
<zear>
one simple command, though i forgot it :D
<zear>
and you need to have a new font file, too
<xdpirate>
if it has a 40x15 terminal then the font size is 8x16
<xdpirate>
i'd love an 8x8 font (like the one in the kernel i built for dingux this morning), could fit more on the screen
<xdpirate>
then we'd have 40x30 :)
<zear>
xdpirate, nanonote's screen isn't like dingoo's
<xdpirate>
it's 320x240 right
<zear>
yes, but the leds (or whatever is used in it) are placed differently
<xdpirate>
right.
<xdpirate>
that doesn't apply to the console fonts then :P
<xdpirate>
coat: "Console fonts are stored in the `/usr/share/consolefonts' directory as compressed files; to install new console fonts, have the system administrator make a `/usr/local/share/consolefonts' directory and put the font files in there."
<zear>
yes it does
<zear>
it's a hardware issue
<zear>
let me demonstrate, one sec
<xdpirate>
coat: "To set the console font to the scrawl_w font, type: "$ consolechars -f font_name"
<coat>
yeah it's like every other pixel is offset from the others by just a bit.  probably affects readability a bit on smaller fonts
<zear>
because it is the same thing, except 1GB nand
<coat>
the pocket dictionary is $200 compared to $99 for the NN
<zear>
well.. 1) buy the nanonote 2) flash it with the chinese firmware 3) ??? 4) profit
<zear>
if there are firmware dumps, of course ;)
<xdpirate>
nice lol
<nebajoth>
I found 10 font size to be the minimum for legibility
<nebajoth>
with fbterm
<nebajoth>
it looks pretty good
<nebajoth>
not as good as default
<nebajoth>
but readable
<nebajoth>
brb
<coat>
i found a bit of copper wire and was able to get it into usb boot mode.  i ran reflash_ben.sh but it's telling me 'Error - can't retrieve XBurst CPU information: -110'
<zear>
crap :/ that's what i'm getting when i boot it with the button combo
<zear>
but when i set it to the usb boot mode by short cirtuiting the pins, it's always fine
<zear>
coat, you'll need assistance of someone who has a greater knowledge about the flashing process
<zear>
like larsc
<zear>
in the meantime you can try to boot it on a different pc
<coat>
k i'll try that
<coat>
typing just usbboot, it seems to find the CPU type
<coat>
wonder if i should try the 'Alternative to using the reflash_ben.sh script' instructions on the wiki
<zear>
yeah, but with error -110 it's a no go
<coat>
k
<zear>
the script executes the same command
<urandom_>
the reflash_ben.sh never worked for me but the alternative worked well
<FrankBlues>
I don't remember the exact error message but it was something about not finding uImage.
<FrankBlues>
rafa: wow!
<tuxbrain>
rafa:epic!!!
<tuxbrain>
wow wow wow, but the video is running faster than expected isn't it?
<zear>
it's a very low res video
<zear>
i want to see a 320x240 one
<rafa>
zear: give me a link
<tuxbrain>
what format you need
<rafa>
tuxbrain: the video is low res that is why I think
<rafa>
tuxbrain: what mplayer uses
<rafa>
320x240 avi should be okey no?
<zear>
i think so
<tuxbrain>
ogg? mpg? avi?
<tuxbrain>
avi
<tuxbrain>
ok
<zear>
ogg won't run
<rafa>
tuxbrain: or give me 3 links and I will test :)
<rafa>
zear: no? :(
<zear>
at least it doen't run on dingux, and that is based on the same sources
<rafa>
argh..
<rafa>
wolfgang will not be happy with me :D
<zear>
:D
<zear>
a matter of compiling with ogg support, i believe
<rafa>
mplayer for mp3 and avipatented.. and no for ogg!
<rafa>
zear: but mplayer asked me to install ogg libraries
<rafa>
well, I can test
<zear>
oh
<rafa>
tuxbrain: link link link
<zear>
then we'll see ;)
<tuxbrain>
dont' streess me man I converting some and uploading in parallel searching for already done on the web
<rafa>
tuxbrain: btw, I have not able to config the sound properly (in jlime) yet, that is why the video speeded a bit as well
<rafa>
tuxbrain: don't stress me : ;-))
<FrankBlues>
rafa: Does X / gpe work in jlime?
<rafa>
FrankBlues: all the stuff should work, just that you need to config stuff. For example, you can install xserver xfbdev.. but it will not work if you do not have the proper command line arguments for the userland and kernel
<rafa>
the same for other packages which need to be configured.
<rafa>
The jlime repository has just binaries will work always in jlime distro, but that does not mean that these will work as we need ;)
<FrankBlues>
opkg keeps giving me errors when I try to install xserver-kdrive-fbdev
<tuxbrain>
damn all vids I found are roted 90º
<rafa>
FrankBlues: if you try some odd stuff (X, gpe, etc) from jlime repo and it works for you after to config properly, please, let us know
<wolfspraul>
the tarball wasn't updated in 3 months, but still, I don't remember a bug like that that was fixed
<wolfspraul>
can you still boot your NanoNote?
<wolfspraul>
unfortunately the u-boot out of the factory is a bit old right now, and the way it supports boot from SD has been changed
<wolfspraul>
so theoretically that would be another option to boot from SD, then reflash from there
<wolfspraul>
just fyi
<wolfspraul>
ah
<wolfspraul>
another idea
<coat>
no it won't boot at all :( although this sounds weird, but as soon as i put the battery in and hold the speaker up to my ear, i can hear like faint white noise
<wolfspraul>
how do you go into USB-boot mode?
<wolfspraul>
you press the 'u' key?
<coat>
i use the hardware method by shorting the pins with the carbonized rubber
<wolfspraul>
hah, OK
<coat>
and the static goes away as soon as the battery is unplugged.  so it's doing something :)
<wolfspraul>
did you just get it, and out of the box it didn't boot?
<wolfspraul>
it should boot into the OpenWrt 20100113 image
<wolfspraul>
from the factory, that is
<coat>
oh sorry i was here earlier.  i got it yesterday and it worked great (although it seemed to crash a few times) and i left it on, plugged into the usb port during lunch, came back, and couldn't get it to turn back on
<wolfspraul>
is the battery out right now?
<wolfspraul>
keep the battery out, it may confuse us
<coat>
yes.  and rebooted into usb boot mode again
<wolfspraul>
ah OK
<wolfspraul>
just give the 'boot' command in usbboot another shot
<wolfspraul>
always worth it
<wolfspraul>
maybe it will disconnect/fail after stage2 again
<wolfspraul>
it's interesting though that stage1 works and then stage2 fails
<coat>
same thing as the latest pastebin
<coat>
should i try compiling xburst-tools from the git repo?
<wolfspraul>
hmm
<wolfspraul>
I'd say no
<coat>
k
<wolfspraul>
let me just check something real quick
<coat>
cool thanks.  i really appreciate your help
<wolfspraul>
maybe stage1 is loaded and executed in the memory inside the CPU, but stage2 is in the SDRAM chip
<wolfspraul>
oh no worries, we'll get it to work
<wolfspraul>
I apologize for the inconvenience, I hope you at least find it adventurous :-)
<wolfspraul>
so if stage2 is the first thing that runs in SDRAM, maybe the SDRAM chip got a problem?
<wolfspraul>
that would make your NanoNote the first ever with a hardware defect! :-)
<wolfspraul>
which one day must happen, who knows, maybe it's yours...
<coat>
how exciting :)
<wolfspraul>
yeah
<wolfspraul>
also it's strange that it did boot first, then stopped
<wolfspraul>
but still, there could be also much simpler explanations
<coat>
yeah and i haven't dropped it or anything.  it was in the same position on my desk when i came back from lunch, unless a gnome came in and broke it while i was gone
<wolfspraul>
yeah I think stage1 is loaded and executed in CPU memory, setups SDRAM, then stage2 runs in the SDRAM
<wolfspraul>
I'm wondering whether anybody else in the channel has another idea...
<wolfspraul>
you tried several computers already... which Linux distro do you run on them?
<coat>
Archlinux on all 3
<wolfspraul>
unfortunately these little stub binaries usbboot is loading (stage1 and stage2) do not implement a really robust USB protocol
<coat>
yeah i read about that on the wiki :/
<wolfspraul>
well we always like to fix bugs, first need to understand what exactly the problem is. so maybe your case is one such case.
<wolfspraul>
for example if there is archlinux on all 3, maybe it has something to do with that? (long shot, just to illustrate my thinking)
<wolfspraul>
we have this other utility xbboot that you can use to load a Linux initramfs into memory right away for usb boots
<wolfspraul>
but even that first uses stage1 and stage2, then loads initramfs
<wolfspraul>
so most likely wouldn't help either
<coat>
i would definitely be up to trying another distro, i was thinking the same way
<wolfspraul>
where do you live? is there any other NanoNote user nearby?//
<coat>
i live in salt lake city
<wolfspraul>
maybe you can try a live CD, if your computers have CD/DVD drives
<wolfspraul>
ah, just was there 3 weeks ago...
<coat>
yeah let me try that now on another computer so i can still chat
<wolfspraul>
visiting Elphel
<wolfspraul>
yes please, that's worth it
<wolfspraul>
you can always just try the 'boot' command in usbboot, not the full script
<wolfspraul>
there is no way to bypass a successful loading and execution of stage1 and stage2
<wolfspraul>
so you can just focus on that
<wolfspraul>
and who knows, I said 'keep the battery out', but you can also try with battery inserted, just in case
<wolfspraul>
so you unplug the battery, unplug USB (then you know it's 100% off). Then put the battery in, then USB cable.
<wolfspraul>
if you plug the USB cable in without battery, normally it will turn on at that moment (so that's also when the USB boot pins need to be short).
<coat>
i'll try that while i download the live cd iso
<wolfspraul>
if you plugin the battery, sometimes it turns on at that moment, but normally shouldn't. then when you plug in the USB, it will also not turn on.
<wolfspraul>
So in that case, you need to press the power button (press a good 3 seconds, just in case)
<wolfspraul>
hope you can follow :-)
<wolfspraul>
the lsusb/0x601a:4740 is a sure fire way to tell your Nano is ready for play
<wolfspraul>
601a:4740 is the ID reported by the CPU over USB to indicate that it is sitting idle in usb-boot mode
<wolfspraul>
so when you see that ID, your NanoNote is on, and the CPU is running
<coat>
weird, as soon as i put the battery in, i can hear the faint static from the speaker
<coat>
wonder if it's turning on as i put the battery in
<wolfspraul>
possible
<wolfspraul>
can you keep the USB boot pins short at that time?
<wolfspraul>
then it will go into usb-boot mode
<coat>
yeah let me give it a shot
<coat>
another thing to note is the static goes away as soon as i plug the usb cable in
<wolfspraul>
OK I hear you, but I cannot relate this to anything
<wolfspraul>
we don't want to open it up and measure voltages now...
<wolfspraul>
if it is really a hardware defect, we'll get it back and take a lot what exactly it was. like I said would have been the first time, but of course electronics can break.
<wolfspraul>
but for now I am pretty sure it isn't just something weird on the software side
<wolfspraul>
I meant I think it is something software related :-) or fixable in software
<tuxbrain>
rafa:uploading a mpg version even lighter that the others
<coat>
understandable.  so you want me to try shorting the usb pins with the battery connected, or short the usb pins and then put the battery in?
<wolfspraul>
ah! :-)
<wolfspraul>
stupid me
<wolfspraul>
the pins are under the battery :-)
<wolfspraul>
forget the battery stuff, let's focus on USB cable only
<wolfspraul>
the USB boot pin have to be short at the moment the CPU is powered on
<wolfspraul>
only at that time
<wolfspraul>
basically when the CPU gets power, it checks those pins
<wolfspraul>
if they are short, it goes into usb-boot mode and waits for instructions (0x601a:4740 ID)
<wolfspraul>
if they are not short, it will boot from NAND
<wolfspraul>
the check happens only once right after the CPU gets power
<wolfspraul>
so you can short the pin, plug the USB cable in, wait 2 seconds, and already release the button from the pins
<wolfspraul>
normally when you plug in the USB cable, device will turn on. if not, you need to press the power button, and before that make sure the USB boot pins are short again.
<coat>
got it.  i usually have to try that about 3-4 times before my copmuter sees it.  i might just be fat fingering the rubber button though and missing the pins
<wolfspraul>
you need to press it firm enough, but if you do that you should see an almost 100% success rate
<wolfspraul>
well normally this is only meant for rare unbricking situations anyway...
<wolfspraul>
coat: which Linux kernel do you have on the host?
<gbraad>
it links to an older article on Linux.com from Nathan Willis (26th of March)
<wolfspraul>
the one that stands out as the buggiest, yeah
<coat>
:)
<wolfspraul>
gbraad: just checked, the article still says it has USB host...
<gbraad>
wolfspraul: I'll contact Nathan to change this
<wolfspraul>
gbraad: that would be great. we were in touch a lot back then but communication didn't flow too well. Don't want to blame him though they get crazy time pressure and have all sorts of policies wrt updates & corrections.
<gbraad>
wolfspraul: will deal with it. mostly have a good relationship with editors on linux.com due to fedora
<wolfspraul>
there were a bunch of mistakes in that article, the USB host is just the biggest one
<wolfspraul>
let's get that fixed at least
<wolfspraul>
gbraad: thanks a lot for your help!
<emeb>
wolfspraul: got my NanoNote today & having fun learning it.
<emeb>
already flashed to latest boot/kernel/root
<wolfspraul>
emeb: wow, I wish coat would be there, that's kinda bugging me right now...
<wolfspraul>
but glad to hear you like it
<emeb>
trying to build the distro & getting an error:
<emeb>
make -r world: build failed. Please re-run make with V=99 to see what's going on
<emeb>
tried 'V=99 make' but that didn't do anything different.
<wolfspraul>
need to see whether some openwrt experts have an idea, I mostly just reflash and install binaries
<emeb>
gotcha
<emeb>
main thing is I wanted a toolchain to do some of my own coding and it appears that's already in place by the time that error pops up
<emeb>
so this is no biggie
<emeb>
wolfspraul: you in DE?
<wolfspraul>
China
<emeb>
Yeow!
<emeb>
How's things there?
<wolfspraul>
hah
<gbraad>
Awesome!
<wolfspraul>
long story. working on copyleft hardware.
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<emeb>
You'll have to write your long story sometime.
<emeb>
Really impressed with the out-of-the-box presentation of the NN. Very polished.
<wolfspraul>
good
<wolfspraul>
I hope it's enough to launch this business, getting close.
<wolfspraul>
but so far stil alive, and pieces coming together
<wolfspraul>
please help if you can, for example with wiki edits
<wolfspraul>
wiki is a mess
<wolfspraul>
pretty much the only one who tries to clean it up is me. categorizing pages and media. a lot of pages can be merged and need heavy editing.
<wolfspraul>
but anyway, enjoy your Ben first :-)
<emeb>
Thanks - best of luck.
<wolfspraul>
I saw in this channel jlime will be ready very soon, that's a cool alternative distro
<emeb>
will check it out when it's ready for primetime.
<emeb>
heh - just transcoded some oggs, copied over & tried out w/ gmu. Works nicely.
<qwebirc89679>
wow, just got my nanonote, such a cool gadget!
<wolfspraul>
cool!
<qwebirc89679>
need to find a microSD wifi card for it
<qwebirc89679>
anyone know of any?
<wolfspraul>
Spectec SDW-823
<wolfspraul>
it's the only one in the world, and that will (probably) ever exist
<wolfspraul>
it's expensive though
<wolfspraul>
pulster.de has it in Germany, and expansys around the world
<rafa>
larsc: you there man? I would need a hand with alsa driver in nn. For some reason
<rafa>
I get in kernel boot time :
<rafa>
ALSA device list: No soundcards found.
<FrankBlues>
waves
<wolfspraul>
coat: I am offline for a while, keep me posted. also email me at wolfgang@sharism.cc
<coat>
definitely.  thanks again
<wolfspraul>
nah, again: thank you!
<wolfspraul>
let's keep working on this, I enjoy the ride. your Nano has to live! :-)
<wolfspraul>
later...
<coat>
later!
<wolfspraul>
just heard from xiangfu who is at Ingenic's office hacking on the super new 4760 evbs...
<wolfspraul>
evb = evaluation board, i.e. a board with a live 4760 CPU on it
<Techbear>
Hi, All.  Got my Nanonote today!
<xiangfu>
Techbear: great :)
<Techbear>
Soooo, I bought the Nanonote 'cuase it's the device I've always dreamed of.  I tiny, cheap computer that I could directly program games on, like a miniature version of my old Commore64.
<Techbear>
BUT, I'm not a linux guy. :(Â Â I guess I'll have to start being one, though.
<FrankBlues>
It is funny how much I hear the NN compared to the C64...
<Techbear>
So, according to the wiki, I'm supposed to have nano (the text editor) on my NN.  But I only see vim.  Is that my only choice?
<FrankBlues>
You may need to update to the current distro to get nano.
<rafa>
FrankBlues: hey, are you using openwrt right now?
<FrankBlues>
I'm in jlime
<FrankBlues>
but I could boot back...
<FrankBlues>
(and I have X running in jlime... woot!)
<rafa>
NO!
<rafa>
:D
<rafa>
FrankBlues: could you please, how do you run X?
<rafa>
could you tell me*
<FrankBlues>
Let's see, I have xserver-kdrive-fbdev installed
<rafa>
I asked you about openwrt because I would neet the /proc/config.gz file to know the .config file for kernel
<larsc>
rafa: are the sound modules loaded?
<rafa>
FrankBlues: I read you
<FrankBlues>
gpe-term provides x-terminal-emulator (bleah - I can't find rvxt in jlime)
<FrankBlues>
and icewm works nicely.
<rafa>
larsc: I built these inside the kernel, sound works now ;)
<larsc>
ok
<rafa>
FrankBlues: but how did you run X?
<rafa>
larsc: I want to know the exact .config anyway