DocScrutinizer05 changed the topic of #neo900 to: | CCCAMP15 lightning talks at | conversations are logged to and
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<ravelo> DocScrutinizer51: today is the last day to book complete device first batch?
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<R0b0t1> DocScrutinizer05: DocScrutinizer51: Can radio selection still be changed? Hopefully my memory is correct that you said it could be changed until rather late.
<DocScrutinizer05> yes, no problem
<DocScrutinizer05> I re-enabled PayPal, please could somebody (who wanted to do shopping anyway) check if it works?
<enyc> sombody suggested to me at some point there was oconcern over mifi needing nofree firmware... maybe this isn't the case or has long since changed =)
<DocScrutinizer05> right now it's completely unclear which WiFi module we'll use
<enyc> kk
<enyc> i'm *(guessing) there are loads of options and a lot is down to availibalinity/cost once meeting requirements
<enyc> there are loads of atheros types with no firmware needs or so
<DocScrutinizer05> no firmware needs means the firmware is flashed to the chip in flashrom, I don't see how that's better for anybody except RMS who can then think of the firmware as "hardware"
<enyc> nods i had wondered!
<enyc> i'm more interested in... actual rists with malicious wlan-side- data... confusing/whatever the wlan firmawre and potentiolly corrupting main memory
<saper> well it is obviously not hardware :(
<enyc> are those risks mostly in the WPA software, wpa_supplicant / etc.. ?? or moreso in wlan software driver, or in the firmware, .......
<DocScrutinizer05> those risks - if any - would be completely in the linux driver software since the WLAN module can't do anything to the system, it's a slave on the interface bus, Linux is master
<enyc> right ok =)
<enyc> the question then is ... are there any relevant 'quality'/'safety' metrics for the choice of WLAN adapter ?
<DocScrutinizer05> there *might* be a risk for encryption (WPA) exploits, IF you are using WLAN module's HW encryption support instead of WPA-supplicant
<DocScrutinizer05> however such exploits are unknown to me
<enyc> nods
<DocScrutinizer05> yes, there are: it needs on-board CPU aka hardmac so the main CPU doesn't need to be active all the time. It needs to support 5GHz, and it needs to have decens small formfactor, right interface and low power consumption. And it needs to be actually sourcable in low quantities
<enyc> =)
<enyc> other main decisions to make? these need sorting out for next proto board?
<DocScrutinizer05> the wg7351 had it all, plus BT plus FM-TX/RX, except the latter two point
<DocScrutinizer05> well the latter one point
<DocScrutinizer05> MOQ:2000, lad time: 20 weeks
<DocScrutinizer05> lead*
<DocScrutinizer05> and that's not even guaranteed, often that's a way to say "go away, find some other product!"
<DocScrutinizer05> no other choices to be made for proto_v2 which we're about to finalize and build now
<DocScrutinizer05> just the dang beagleboards that were supposed to get shipped in June, after 1 year of preordering time at mouser
<DocScrutinizer05> still no news
<DocScrutinizer05> well, we have a few of them still, and I got two pandoraboxes which we also *could* use for external brain concept of proto_v2
<DocScrutinizer05> anyway if somebody has a BeagleBoard-xM(!) s/he doesn't need anymore, we pay good price for used and new working ones
<DocScrutinizer05> :-)
<DocScrutinizer05> quite likely manufacturers phasing out their relatively open wlan chips now and replacing them by chips that have fixed or signed firmware and no more support for monitormode and packet injection
<EndZ> DocScrutinizer05: is today really the last day, to book a complete device?
<DocScrutinizer05> no, today is the first day of last weekend to become a meber of those lucky folks that will get a N900 mech parts withour FIRST batch we order. We will try to order a second batch after 2 months or so, if enough new preorders came in until then - unclear if that second batch order will actually succeed
<DocScrutinizer05> no, today is the first day of last weekend to become a member of those lucky folks that will get a N900 mech parts with our FIRST batch we order (if you preordered complete device until Sunday or Monday the latest). We will try to order a second batch after 2 months or so, if enough new preorders came in until then - unclear if that second batch order will actually succeed
<EndZ> okay, thx.
<DocScrutinizer05> yw :-)
<DocScrutinizer05> we got 180 preorders for complete Neo900 so far, so - incl spares - I will order a 200 N900 on Monday
<DocScrutinizer05> ... unless some more preorders come in this weekend
<EndZ> wee :)
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<ravelo> Just tried to identify to tmo. I'd like to buy a voucher...
<DocScrutinizer05> :-D
<ravelo> It looks like it's not possible to register because of an error on the site.
<DocScrutinizer05> yes, there are quite a few available, which I strongly suggest you make use of when you're interested in Neo900
<DocScrutinizer05> ravelo: tmo registering is sort of flaky.
<DocScrutinizer05> /join #maemo , try to contact chem|st
<ravelo> ok
<DocScrutinizer05> anyway sometimes it helps to just try another browser
<ravelo> ok
<DocScrutinizer05> if you can't register a new account, please provide the text of the post and I can send it on behalf of you
<DocScrutinizer05> (provide) in pastebin or whatever
<ravelo> did work in a different browser, thanks
<DocScrutinizer05> yw :-)
<EndZ> another question: until when the payment have to be succeeded?
<DocScrutinizer05> please everybody: if you have a choice between PP and wire transfer (i.e. when you're living in EU where SEPA/SWIFT works) then please use the latter. PP is still trouble for us
<ravelo> I could try paypal, but would like to buy a voucher before
<DocScrutinizer05> EndZ: well, that doesn't really matter that much, don't worry
<EndZ> okay.
<ravelo> ah ok, so you don't want anyone to try paypal.
<ravelo> -> will use bank transfer then.
<DocScrutinizer05> I received a note from them today that they will freeze your money on our account for up to 6 months before we can use it
<DocScrutinizer05> "just in case, if it was a CC payment and needs to get rolled back after 6 months"
<EndZ> what's a CC payment?
<DocScrutinizer05> Credit Card
<EndZ> ah
<DocScrutinizer05> but note they don't limit that to CC payments, they apply that policy to *all* payments
<ravelo> DocScrutinizer05: Is it OK to use more than one voucher?
<ravelo> I could by more of them and apply them ;)
<DocScrutinizer05> I hope to negotiate a better deal with them, after all it's highly unlikely that ALL our customers are fraudulent CC payments
<DocScrutinizer05> ravelo: sorry,, no. each voucher stands for one device preordered, so we don't appreciate accumulation of multiple vouchers on one device order
<DocScrutinizer05> we already ordered some parts for each of the vouchers resp customers, and we based our calculations on each voucher resulting in one device getting built for it
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<DocScrutinizer05> R&D also been paid by an equal fraction of each donation aka preorder so far
<Arch-TK> DocScrutinizer05: so why do you nead all these beagleboards?
<DocScrutinizer05> Arch-TK: in proto_v2 we attach the core system (CPU, power, storage, memory) via at flat cable to the prototype board. That external CPU board is a BeagleBoard-xM
<DocScrutinizer05> we do this to have simpler (only 4 layers instead of 8) cheaper PCBs and less effort in layout etc
<Arch-TK> so wait, I'm confused, the NeoN will be a beagleboard-xm taped to some components?
<Arch-TK> Or is this purely for prototyping purposes?
<Arch-TK> In which case, why do you need so many, surely one or two would suffice right?
<DocScrutinizer05> though... if this whole situation doesn't improve, we might consider reverting to 'classical' prototype concept and integrate CPU and RAM and uSD to the proto already
<DocScrutinizer05> this is purely for prototyping
<DocScrutinizer05> we like to have at least 6 "brainboards"
<Arch-TK> Oh... It sounded like you were ordering 100 beagleboards, you're ordering 6.
<Arch-TK> :P
<DocScrutinizer05> we also would send out some of them to our developers
<Arch-TK> are they seriously that hard to get?
<Arch-TK> (the beagleboards)
<DocScrutinizer05> e.g freemangordon and pali, for FPTF
<DocScrutinizer05> Arch-TK: alas yes
<DocScrutinizer05> Arch-TK: NB: BeagleBoard-xM (SIC)
<Arch-TK> the $150 one (on the bb website)
<DocScrutinizer05> yep
<DocScrutinizer05> sounds about right
<Arch-TK> well the website (selected from the distributors dropdown) doesn't want to load
<Arch-TK> and the german site has 0 in stock
<Arch-TK> I see the problem...
<Arch-TK> translates much better into polish than it does into english
<Arch-TK> so there is hope
<DocScrutinizer05> note that I ordered a year ago :-/
<Arch-TK> If Archlinux-ARM has an image which works with the BeagleBoard-xM, would it work more or less out of the box with the Neo900?
<DocScrutinizer05> yes, of course
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<DocScrutinizer05> :-)
<Arch-TK> That's great. If there's news of BeagleBoard-xM on the horizon, I will probably buy one.
<Arch-TK> I want to see Archlinux-ARM running on a working phone
<Arch-TK> I was thinking of how an ncurses interface would work with the N900 screen and keyboard...
<Arch-TK> I have some ideas for how I could put together a modified / rewritten i3wm and some simple ncurses programs to try to get a working phone interface.
<Arch-TK> (That sounds crazy, of course, this is what I do.)
<EndZ> sounds nice.
<Arch-TK> The only question is do I have the brains and the time to get it working.
<EndZ> although the touchscreen would be useless.
<edwin> can it emulate a mouse press?
<Arch-TK> Not necessarily... Terminal emulators and ncurses itself supports mouse input.
<EndZ> Arch-TK: well, if you already have an i3 running
<EndZ> why not a fullscreen SDL window
<Arch-TK> EndZ: With actual graphics?
<EndZ> dunno.
<EndZ> a SDL window allows ~ everything
<Arch-TK> Of course.
<EndZ> i would use some simple OpenGL foo
<Arch-TK> Well the idea is to make it work off of primarily terminal emulators, and a window manager which has multiple workspaces.
<EndZ> i3 and any running terminal?
<Arch-TK> Then any other applications would also work.
<Arch-TK> EndZ: a touch oriented i3, basically.
<Arch-TK> yes
<EndZ> i wouldn't fork i3 but dwm instead
<DocScrutinizer05> sounds like PaulFertser's EMACS GTA02
<Arch-TK> heh... sounds interesting... but emacs would take ages to load... surely?
<DocScrutinizer05> I don't know what exactly he did
<Arch-TK> It already takes a full second to load on my laptop with an Samsung 850 EVO, on my desktop with a plain HDD it takes maybe 5 seconds, maybe more.
<DocScrutinizer05> anyway he's using the Freerunner GTA02 with his own terminal-based UI
<Arch-TK> I guess it depends on configuration and packages.
<Arch-TK> sounds cool.
<edwin> could you run it in daemon mode?
<edwin> emacsclient starts so much faster than full emacs
<Arch-TK> well yes
<Arch-TK> but you still need to start the daemon first :P
<edwin> although ocasinally things are broken with daemon mode
<edwin> you start it on boot :)
<Arch-TK> Anyway, we can always dream, but to get things done we first need an Neo900
<Arch-TK> I think I will pay the downpayment some time around the end of this month.
<Arch-TK> (NeoN bare board only)
<DocScrutinizer05> Arch-TK: that's highly welcome (though unrelated to N900 sourcing) :-))
<Arch-TK> I know, I bought my own N900 first to make sure I liked the design and the keyboard, and I have to say, they are both great.
<Arch-TK> The fact I managed to complete asciiportal on it is a testament to how much better it is compared to a phone without a keyboard.
<DocScrutinizer05> if a bare NeoN board is what you need (since you got a N900 to upgrade) then you're one of our major target group
<DocScrutinizer05> ((I have to say, they are both great)) \o/ :-)) yes, aren't they? :-)
<Arch-TK> I wonder if I can pull off FDE on the thing while I'm at it.
<DocScrutinizer05> what's FDE?
<Arch-TK> Full Disk Encryption
<DocScrutinizer05> I think this already got implemented and working on some N900s
<Arch-TK> cool
<DocScrutinizer05> you might want to /join #maemo and ask
<edwin> didn't know asciiportal existed, looking forward to playing it on my Neo900 :)
<DocScrutinizer05> YAY! NINETY chan members
<DocScrutinizer05> :-)
<DocScrutinizer05> ((FDK, ask #maemo) or simply search on
<DocScrutinizer05> FDE*
<DocScrutinizer05> since maemo fremantle basically is a plain debian system, stuff like FDE should be pretty easy to 'port' to arbitrary other debian-alike linux, and even RPM based distros shouldn't be much different
<DocScrutinizer05> in the end you could say that there's a close relationship (almost twins) between Beagle-xM, GolDeliCo GTA04, Nokia N900 and Neo900
<DocScrutinizer05> from a OS point of view at least
<DocScrutinizer05> obviously not by formfactor
<DocScrutinizer05> :-)
<DocScrutinizer05> we (Neo900) sort of guarantee that basically all GTA04 and all Maemo apps stuff should run flawlessly on Neo900
<DocScrutinizer05> dos1: :-D hi friend!
<DocScrutinizer05> and thanks for the link :-))
<FIQ> DocScrutinizer05, there are places still that sell N900s in bulk?
<dos1> hello hello :)
<DocScrutinizer05> well, yeah, in some places in China you can get them, refurbished
<DocScrutinizer05> when you got boots on the ground there
<DocScrutinizer05> if you don't, you're likely getting fake or rubbish
<FIQ> <Arch-TK> If Archlinux-ARM has an image which works with the BeagleBoard-xM, would it work more or less out of the box with the Neo900?
<FIQ> it worked fine on my N900 when I tested it, getting it up and running on Neo900 should be even easier
<DocScrutinizer05> yep
<DocScrutinizer05> you need drivers for the different kbd matrix scanner and the different (dualtouch) touchscreen digitizer, both already existing
<FIQ> speaking of which, I should try get alarm up and running on my OP...
<FIQ> see how well it works
<FIQ> oh well
<DocScrutinizer05> FIQ: I'm feeling sad about you not getting a Neo900
<DocScrutinizer05> FIQ: maybe you'd be interested in one of the "broken" boards we doubtlessly will have a few of, after production run. Something with dunno, WLAN module defect, or whatever. Those might be available for relatively cheap money
<FIQ> <DocScrutinizer05> FIQ: I'm feeling sad about you not getting a Neo900
<FIQ> it seems like a really nice device, just happens to be too expensive for me
<DocScrutinizer05> that's why I'm pondering a way to get you one
<FIQ> ah
<FIQ> hm, I don't know, maybe? depends on how broken :p
<DocScrutinizer05> we might have some maybe 5 or so boards like that, which we can't sell for a 'normal' device at a 'normal' price
<FIQ> we'll see sooner or later I suppose
<DocScrutinizer05> of course it depends on 'how broken' :-)
<DocScrutinizer05> yes. Just mentioning it so you could ponder if you're maybe interested
<FIQ> maybe, ty for the heads up anyway
<DocScrutinizer05> yw :-)
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<ravelo> I applied the voucher. Now cannot save my account data (error: 1. other is invalid). Browser: Firefox
<ravelo> it looks I cannot solve this issue in the webshop
<DocScrutinizer05> duh! sorry to hear that, sounds weird
<ravelo> I try to register first, then do the order
<ravelo> maybe this helps
<DocScrutinizer05> yes, please do
<ravelo> maybe better not do everything in one step
<DocScrutinizer05> it once worked, but that shop thing is a nightmare for us Electric Engineers to maintain
<DocScrutinizer05> :-)
<ravelo> ok, now waiting for the registration link.
<DocScrutinizer05> should arrive instantly
<ravelo> this could be a problem for new customers as this is the proposed way to buy
<ravelo> if they are not able to complete the steps they might not buy in the end
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<ravelo> ok, was in my spam folder
<DocScrutinizer05> yeah, you created 2 new accounts, according to my controlling emails
<DocScrutinizer05> nevermind, no problem
* DocScrutinizer05 ponders to lock the shop feature to have shopping cart for anonymous visitors
<DocScrutinizer05> this might actually simplify the procedure
<ravelo> had to copy the link (not clickable)
<DocScrutinizer05> dang!
<ravelo> done :)
<DocScrutinizer05> you're Martin?
<ravelo> yes, maybe lead those to first create the account
<ravelo> yes
<DocScrutinizer05> good
<ravelo> transaction done also :)
<DocScrutinizer05> :-)
<DocScrutinizer05> sidenote: I just called mouser, very friendly folks there who promised to bump the query at BB-xM manuf
<ravelo> maybe I can help out again a bit, at the moment no time
<ravelo> it looks like you are stuck a bit waiting for Nikolaus
<ravelo> who is busy for pyra
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<DocScrutinizer05> hmm, he left. anyway no, Nikolaus is supposed to be available 100% for Neo900 from this very week on, and so next week we (re-)start with building proto_v2 (or was it 3? that counting scheme confuses me completely)
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<lpgl> Hi ! I would like to proceed to my paiment for a NEO900 board but I can't manage to have a voucher id for the 100€ I've paid when the project start... Anyone can help ?
<DocScrutinizer05> lpgl: hi! the voucher code got sent to you by email
<DocScrutinizer05> several weeks ago
<edwin> my voucher code got sent in an email with subject 'Neo900 - your voucher code'
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<DocScrutinizer05> he sorted it :-D
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<DocScrutinizer05> tiny "updates" on µBlog
<DocScrutinizer05> btw to whom it may concern: we are still looking for private VC to build a few "excess" devices
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<DocScrutinizer05> edwin: those are not really 'private'
<DocScrutinizer05> we eventually might look into this stuff, but not now. we're not prepared for it
<DocScrutinizer05> and odds are those entities won't consider Neo900 a really rewarding investment either. Our perspective is sort of 'too limited' for them
<DocScrutinizer05> Neo900 is a one-shot basically, without a perspective for 'eternal growth' - unless we come up with STEP2 which is still pretty much vaporware
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<edwin> well you have what some people who do get an investment don't even have: you have (ok a limited number of) customers who pre-ordered your device, you have various working prototypes, and previous experience on building a similar product
<edwin> its not just a bunch of slides and an idea
<DocScrutinizer05> yep, that's true
<edwin> might be interesting to pitch your idea (either of neo900 or step2) to some investors just to see what their reaction is
<edwin> so when you are ready you know what they're looking for
<DocScrutinizer05> but commercial VC looks for ROI in the 1000% range, we can't offer that
<edwin> hmm I guess a hardware business is harder than a pure software one :)
<DocScrutinizer05> yes
<DocScrutinizer05> in software you basically make money out of nothing, after initially developing some 'seed'
<DocScrutinizer05> in hw you are just value-adding
<DocScrutinizer05> IOW you have expense per sold unit
<edwin> sure, and the customer pays for it, that initial investment would help you acquiring the components in the needed amount and not having to look for batches of 100-200, but could instead go for the higher batches
<edwin> given enough (millions?) of devices sold they would get their investment back
<edwin> multiple times, the question is if there is such a market for neo900-like devices
<DocScrutinizer05> surely not
<edwin> the (failed) ubuntu edge got pledge for $12m they aimed too high
<DocScrutinizer05> also we simply cannot do that right away - would need producing our own cases, displays, digitizers, antennas etc pp
<DocScrutinizer05> (edge) I know :-D, that's where Neo900 started (well around that point in time)
<edwin> sure its just a keyboard, and in fact they worked on it for quite a while before getting that funding
<edwin> they also got some investment from bloomberg beta
<edwin> maybe you could have a chat with them (theirs is open hardware too) to get some tips
<edwin> although being in the US has some advantage when it comes to investments :)
<EndZ> is it possible getting the payment information resend?
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<DocScrutinizer05> EndZ: please see your account, any invoice should be available for download there (if you completed the order) or just /query me and pass me your account ID
<DocScrutinizer05> EndZ: you also should have received an email with payment details
<DocScrutinizer05> in case you chosen bank transfer
<EndZ> mh, is the bank transfer account the same for all orders?
<DocScrutinizer05> yes
<DocScrutinizer05> see /query
<EndZ> nah, hacked it.
<DocScrutinizer05> ok
<EndZ> simply buyed 20 Euro extra.
<DocScrutinizer05> o.O
<DocScrutinizer05> ooh
<DocScrutinizer05> :-)
<DocScrutinizer05> hehe
<DocScrutinizer05> please include both order ids in your payment :-)
<DocScrutinizer05> though I'll sort it out anyway when I see the payment exceeds a single order. But easier to find the seciond order then, when you provide the ID
<EndZ> yeah, i will do it.
<DocScrutinizer05> we're quite happy about bank transfer, PayPal giving us serious headaches right at the moment
<EndZ> :)
<DocScrutinizer05> they installed a security deposit (money we can't access for 180 days) that's quite in excess of the amount of money we expect to ever see on that PP account
<DocScrutinizer05> we hope to correct that by negotiating better conditions with them
<DocScrutinizer05> you (our customers) could expedite the release of that payment to us when you "give a positive feedback on eBay" - WTF?!
<DocScrutinizer05> maybe give a 'positive feedback' in direct mail to PayPal?
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<Kero> you are sure convincing me to stop using paypal. what a l**d of cr*p.
<DocScrutinizer05> a mail to PP pointing out "I've read and accepted the TOS when I ordered" may help
<DocScrutinizer05> oops, sorry
<DocScrutinizer05> a mail to PP pointing out "I've read and accepted the TOS when I ordered" may help
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