DocScrutinizer05 changed the topic of #neo900 to: MGMT temporarily AFK for CCCAMP15! | | conversations are logged to and
<ShadowJK> Oh yeah, that too :)
<ShadowJK> dirkvl's keyboard v2 uses magnets to emulate slider, and to be honest, it works better than the v1 "real" slider
sparetire_ has quit [Quit: sparetire_]
jonsger has quit [Quit: jonsger]
<DocScrutinizer05> I gave up on Jolla
<DocScrutinizer05> same shit as with Nokia, just worse
<DocScrutinizer05> ""the DE is FOSS, what more do you need?""" LOL!
<DocScrutinizer05> ""we give you (python|C|gtk|*) to write apps, and we define what you may do and what's not available (Indicator LED patterns for example are NOT available, WAAAY TOO DANGEROUS)""
<DocScrutinizer05> bootloader, somebody said bootloader?
<DocScrutinizer05> good night
* DocScrutinizer05 takes a 8 day chillout from cccamp15
<MonkeyofDoom> I agree, Jolla is too astroturfy
Humpelst1lzchen has joined #neo900
Humpelstilzchen has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
modem has quit [Quit: Quitte]
vakkov has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
vakkov has joined #neo900
infobot has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
hellekin has joined #neo900
<hellekin> moin. The topic sucks ;o)
infobot has joined #neo900
DocScrutinizer05 changed the topic of #neo900 to: | conversations are logged to and
<hellekin> moin Joerg
<DocScrutinizer05> hi
<DocScrutinizer05> not awake yet
* hellekin gives coffee to DocScrutinizer05
lexik has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
Kabouik has joined #neo900
sparetire_ has joined #neo900
SylvieLorxu has joined #neo900
jonsger has joined #neo900
paulk-collins has joined #neo900
<DocScrutinizer05> thanks
<DocScrutinizer51> oh yeah, coffee is a life saver
<DocScrutinizer05> 42 new customer accounts (since ... last I checked, before cccamp madness)
<DocScrutinizer05> Neo900DOWN PAYMENT Neo900 complete device-180
<DocScrutinizer05> NeoNDOWN PAYMENT NeoN bare board-97
<DocScrutinizer05> +1EURDown Payment top up-7899
<Wizzup> That is better - aiming for 400, right?
<DocScrutinizer05> yes, 400 is an arbitrary but reasonable threshold we want to reach this month
<DocScrutinizer05> actually a hard threshold is "500 N900 'mech parts' to source"
<DocScrutinizer05> I got an option for 500 devices and I realy want to use it completely, since a second opportunity to source those N900 possibly never will come
<DocScrutinizer05> so including spares for warranty and a tad of overprovisioning I may do, we're looking for 400 complete device preorders
<Wizzup> so about 120 more required
<DocScrutinizer05> NeoN bare boards are "unlimited" and every NeoN preorder helps us making the project a success, but right now the complete device preorders are the most important number
EndZ has joined #neo900
<DocScrutinizer05> IOW: I hope for 220 more preorders for *complete* devices
<DocScrutinizer05> also looking for venture capital that would allow us to source them parts complete 500 quantity even when less preorders for complete devices arrive during next month
<Wizzup> would be cool
* EndZ preordered.
wpwrak has joined #neo900
<DocScrutinizer05> hi wpwrak! :-)
<DocScrutinizer05> tells me you're home again
<wpwrak> yup, just arrived. all went well, including customs :)
<DocScrutinizer05> cooool
<DocScrutinizer05> you seen the talks dos1 already placed on /stuff/* ?
<DocScrutinizer05> lightnings
<DocScrutinizer05> I'm really eager for antiatom to upload the full talk recording, even a rough uncut non post-processed version
DocScrutinizer05 changed the topic of #neo900 to: | CCCAMP15 lightning talks at | conversations are logged to and
<wpwrak> (talks) nice ! i guess i should have had a beer before the talk, though, to fidget a bit less :)
<DocScrutinizer05> hehe
<DocScrutinizer05> one thing: you should introduce yourself a tad more clearly. People hardly understand "Werner Almesberger" and the moderator announced "wpwrak" (weird moderation)
<wpwrak> ah, anelok talk was smoother than i thought. made only a few mistakes and you couldn't tell that i hardly could remember what i had on he first slides :)
<DocScrutinizer05> naaah I think the lighning talks all were pretty fine :-)
<wpwrak> my name is too complicated to remember. the introduction is a pure formality there.
<DocScrutinizer05> maybe for next talk have a title slide with your name on it (among other stuff like talk topic etc)
<DocScrutinizer05> or did you have and the cutter later on simply didn't include it in the video? I can't recall
<wpwrak> yes, it's on the first slide, but they didn't show it
wpwrak has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
lexik has joined #neo900
XBauer is now known as XTaran
lexik has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
lexik has joined #neo900
<DocScrutinizer05> dos1: could you video-edit the lightning talks to briefly show that first slide before the talk starts? either add it as lead-in, or replace the moderator close-up shot with a slide video while keeping the audiotrack
<dos1> DocScrutinizer05: I'll look at it. Right now the videos are just cut, not even reencoded, to preserve quality, so they can be safely used as a source for editing.
<DocScrutinizer05> :-)
<DocScrutinizer05> mp4 not playing on N900 :-/
<DocScrutinizer05> dunno why
<dos1> 1920x1080 could be the answer :P
<bencoh> krkr
xes has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
<DocScrutinizer05> indeed :-D
xes has joined #neo900
<xes> DocScrutinizer05: with this it will be N900 compliant ;) : ffmpeg -y -loglevel info -i lightningtalk.mp4 -vf yadif=0:-1:0,scale="800:trunc(ow/a/2)*2" -qscale:v 9 -c:v │ R0b0t1
<xes> ╡ libx264 -crf 28 -c:a mp3 -q:a 6 lightningtalk_N900.mp4
<xes> hmm.. sorry nice mess
<xes> ffmpeg -y -loglevel info -i lightningtalk.mp4 -vf yadif=0:-1:0,scale="800:trunc(ow/a/2)*2" -qscale:v 9 -c:v libx264 -crf 28 -c:a mp3 -q:a 6 lightningtalk_N900.mp4
<DocScrutinizer05> I guess dos1 will understand and appreciate the hint :-)
<bencoh> actually you should add a level constraint to x264 to be fully-compliant
<DocScrutinizer05> sorry, afk. busy to return the rent car
<DocScrutinizer05> actually to unload luggage first, and to clean the whole critter
<xes> bencoh: thanks, feel free to suggest better ways
<bencoh> add something like "-x264opts level=3" (level 3 should be fine for n900 I think), or "-x264opts profile=baseline" if you really want to be sure and stick to baseline
<xes> bencoh: yep, but it seems that the syntax in newer versions is "-profile:v baseline" ...BTW in both ways video are playing very well in the N900 ;)
Jean-Scotch has joined #neo900
<bencoh> xes: -profile should be deprecated in ffmpeg ... unless they changed it again :)
<bencoh> (at least for use with x264)
<paulk-collins> hey there
<paulk-collins> DocScrutinizer05, thanks again for organizing the neo village at camp!
<paulk-collins> DocScrutinizer05, it was nice to meat you guys and sorry you weren't there when I said goodbye before leaving on monday
Pali has joined #neo900
jonsger has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
<DocScrutinizer05> paulk-collins: was a pleasure to meet you. Sorry for the thunderstorm, I hope the talk is nevertheless useful and good. We'll see what got recorded. Don't worry about byebye-ing, we all were pretty busy and the time schedules placed on us by camp orga were insanely tough, so a pity we couldn't say goodbye but we'll "meet" in IRC here every day :-)
<DocScrutinizer05> thanks for the excellent talks and supporting the project/village
<paulk-collins> oh btw, did I leave a Replicant banner at the village?
<DocScrutinizer05> yes. I hope I have packed it somewhere
<DocScrutinizer05> afk again
<DocScrutinizer05> btw I received some positive critics on our talks, the "this was very enlightening, thank you" type, and those were for your talk as well
<paulk-collins> great!
<paulk-collins> DocScrutinizer05, don't worry about it too much (the banner), it's just good to know I didn't lose it at some other point
SylvieLorxu has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
SylvieLorxu has joined #neo900
Kabouik has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
SylvieLorxu has quit [Quit: ZNC -]
SylvieLorxu has joined #neo900
che1 has joined #neo900
<R0b0t1> xes: ?
<R0b0t1> oh
che1 has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
jake42 has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
che1 has joined #neo900
dal2 has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
Pali has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
Pali has joined #neo900
SylvieLorxu has quit [Quit: ZNC -]
SylvieLorxu has joined #neo900
demure has quit [Quit: Either it broke, or I'm fixing it...]
demure has joined #neo900
dal has joined #neo900
<dal> 2
dal is now known as dal2
vakkov has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
vakkov has joined #neo900
arcean has joined #neo900
SylvieLorxu has quit [Quit: ZNC -]
arcean has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
arcean has joined #neo900
SylvieLorxu has joined #neo900
Pali has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
ZetaR has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
enyc has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
enyc has joined #neo900
Pali has joined #neo900
ZetaR has joined #neo900
Kabouik has joined #neo900
Kabouik has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
ccnnjj has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
<DocScrutinizer05> R0b0t1: I guess that's what c&p of ncurses irssi gives you ;-)
HylianSavior has quit [Changing host]
HylianSavior has joined #neo900
trx has joined #neo900
che1 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
_whitelogger has joined #neo900
arcean has quit [Quit: App terminated!]
recharged has joined #neo900
<recharged> if I were to order a neo900, could I order it without a modem?
<enyc> very godo question =)
<enyc> recharged: why would that matter over just having it off/disabled ?
vakkov has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
<dos1> I don't think getting a board without a modem will be any problem
vakkov has joined #neo900
<enyc> dos1: wondering how the presenting went and if you are getting ensinsble/helpful extra orders
Pali has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<recharged> well, it would be a waste of battery life, I'll never use it, and it may not actually be off. plus, I don't want to scratch out my n900's battery cover to fit it.
<recharged> it seems like an inconvenience to me. I like the neo900 and would prefer to use it as a pocket PC rather than as a spying device
ccnnjj has joined #neo900
<dos1> there will be power switch for modem anyway, but sure, no need to pay for something you'll never use
<dos1> but where did you get "I don't want to scratch out my n900's battery cover to fit it" from?
<dos1> even if you order a board with unpopulated modem, it will still be a two-PCB sandwich and will need a spacer frame to fit
<dos1> however, no scratching is needed regardless of whether the modem is there or not
jonsger has joined #neo900
<recharged> so I can order one without it? I remember reading somewhere that the lte modem will be too big for the case and requires scratching out the cover to fit it correctly.
<ZetaR> recharged: IIRC, there was a note on the shop page that you could order the Neo900 without a modem. I don't know where you heard about scratching the cover, but it will not require damaging the N900 case at all either way. There is a spacer frame that needs to be inserted to make room for the 2-board stack, but this will need to be installed whether you have the modem or not.
<ZetaR> One of the main design criteria for the Neo900 is that the modem is to be treated as a rogue device, and to prevent any means of spying on the system using the modem. It will have a hardware power switch on the modem that cannot be overridden by the modem; this would prevent any battery loss / spying. The main reason I could think of to nix the modem is to save some money.
<dos1> the only reasons to leave modem unpopulated are: 1) saving some money 2) wanting to develop your own modem module with compatible footprint ;)
<recharged> well that works out then. where at could I order one without? the shop page only has options for different modems. would I specifically have to send a message for that?
<ZetaR> IIRC the tip about not populating the modem said to write "Don't populate the modem" in the comment box on your order.
<recharged> oh okay. but I can't find where I read that, maybe it was fud.
<ZetaR> It might have been some other person's project. I seem to recall some N900 mod that required cutting the case.
<recharged> and how much would I save for opting out of a modem? although I'd still pay full price for it either way.
<dos1> yes, just write a comment about it in your order
<recharged> that might have been it, then.
<ZetaR> IDK about the price. I will try and look up the part price, but it would just be an estimate because price depends on order quantity.
<recharged> yeah, understandable.
Kabouik has joined #neo900
<ZetaR> lists it at 79 euro for 10, so I am guessing it would be around 60 euro in bulk.
<ZetaR> The PLS8, that is.
<recharged> so I could save, potentially, 67 usd?
<ZetaR> I am not sure how it will be handled, but I am guessing that you will be able to save somewhere in that ballpark, just as a rough estimate.
<ZetaR> dos1: Have you heard anything more specific on saving money by nixing the modem?
<recharged> alrighty, that sounds good. thank you. also, everything else in the device will be free-as-in-freedom, right?
<ZetaR> This is what I have heard: software drivers will all be free except 3d driver, which is not required for a typical system. You can install any OS you want so long as it supports the hardware, and stuff should work on it (though there is an emphasis on ensuring Maemo 5 works well). All of the hardware has good documentation that does not require an NDA. Schematics will be freely released.
<ZetaR> The actual chips on the board are not libre silicon (if you were asking about that), but I have only really seen maybe a couple chips with libre silicon that have actually been manufactured.
<ZetaR> AFK for a bit. Hope that answered your question recharged.
<recharged> when you say drivers, do you mean firmware? or are just the drivers free? but 3D acceleration isn't an issue for me unless I decide to install compiz on it for some unkown reason. free hardware is not much of a concern as long as they can run free software on them.
<recharged> my main concern: can I install a base debian and not have to enable non-free repos to use certain modules?
jonsger has quit [Quit: jonsger]
jonsger has joined #neo900
<dos1> recharged: 3D acceleration needs closed blob (although there's a rumor of free driver being developed)
<dos1> recharged: wifi chip needs a firmware to be uploaded to it before use
<dos1> recharged: and that's it. when you don't need 3D acceleration, anything that runs on base CPU can be 100% FLOSS
<bencoh> a rumor ?
vakkov has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
<recharged> hasn't there been a free powervr reverse-engineer? albeit not very good. well the wifi part is a bit of a problem. docscrutinizer told me on #maemo that it would be free.
<bencoh> dos1: dunno if it's really related, but ... see the link :]
vakkov has joined #neo900
<bencoh> recharged: you mean, the GNU/FSF effort? they never succeeded afaik
<bencoh> (well, project never received enough attention I think)
<recharged> I thought they at least got somewhere.
<dos1> recharged: I'm not sure, maybe wifi chip got changed since the last time I was looking at it. but even if it didn't, its drivers are definitely 100% free
<dos1> it's just that it lacks a on-board memory to store the firmware, so you have to upload it on its boot
<recharged> also, if the wlan firmware isn't free, could I possibly connect a thinkpenguin usb dongle to it?
<dos1> sure
<dos1> bencoh: until they release it, it's rumor in my book ;)
<recharged> I might do that then if it's not
<dos1> also unclear if that driver they're supposedly working on will cover the chip used in omap3
<dos1> (although I hope that even if it doesn't, adapting it won't be that hard)
<bencoh> dos1: it's non-existent in mine :)
<bencoh> (the link at points to an error, btw ^^)
<dos1> yeah, probably already got their hire and deleted the page :P
<bencoh> or they realized they were actually going FOSS and they freaked out :D
paulk-collins has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<dos1> yeah, or that ;)
SylvieLorxu has quit [Quit: ZNC -]
<DocScrutinizer05> ((<ZetaR> IIRC the tip about not populating the modem said to write "Don't populate the modem" in the comment box on your order.)) 100% correct. But due to handling overhead the saving is marginal
vakkov has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
<recharged> well that works then. but what about the wifi firmware? is it free or non-free?
<ZetaR> DocScrutinizer05: Ah, I forgot about different handling/assembly price.
vakkov has joined #neo900
<DocScrutinizer05> the wifi firmware we (Neo900 UG) rpovide is non-free. I *think* there's a FOSS RE alternative for the wl12xx
<DocScrutinizer05> and yes, we searched for a full-FOSS wifi chip alternative. Alas there doesn't exist any feasible one
<DocScrutinizer05> we know about atheros, but they don't offer wifi chipsets that are both FOSS and applicable for embedded/battery-powered
<DocScrutinizer05> for embedded you need a wifi chip that does hardmac (own local CPU/MCU) and has a sensible interface
<recharged> well that's a bit of a let-down.
<DocScrutinizer05> and it needs to be power saving design
<DocScrutinizer05> we're trying to do as good as it gets, but we won't do nonsense like "drop wifi since it's not FOSS" or "drop gsm/umts/LTE/ modem since it's not FOSS" or "use a FOSS chipset that cuts through your battery in 90 minutes"
<DocScrutinizer05> you're free to not activate/use the non-FOSS bits
vakkov has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
<DocScrutinizer05> but there's no better alternative or we would have used it
<recharged> I understand. perhaps there will be a free firmware replacement for it.
<recharged> what is the chipset in the neo900?
<DocScrutinizer05> Neo900 is as open as we could reasonably get while still building a working device (instead of a proof of concept that's not really useful for every day usage)
<DocScrutinizer05> which chipset? wlan? cellular modem? grafix accel?
<recharged> wlan
<DocScrutinizer05> wl12xx
<recharged> sorry.
<DocScrutinizer05> yes, see what ZetaR linked
<DocScrutinizer05> we're as open as we could think of
<ZetaR> recharged: There is more info on in general, including several papers on the design of various subsystems, and the prototype schematics.
lobito1 has joined #neo900
<recharged> is it using the same chipset as the n900?
<DocScrutinizer05> ((modem)) including assembly we're at ~100 bucks for the modem
<DocScrutinizer05> no, the N900 had wl1251, we're using wl1273 which is a superset of N900's wl1251
lobito has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
<DocScrutinizer05> it's basically identical chipset used also in Nokia's N9
<DocScrutinizer05> the upper part above the --------------------- line is what been in N900, the lower part under the line is Neo900
jonsger has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
<DocScrutinizer05> recharged: ^^^
<DocScrutinizer05> ((modem)) leaving it out could save you maybe 50 bucks
<DocScrutinizer05> possibly even less
<recharged> ahh, now I see. I wasn't paying much attention, thank you. for the modem, price really isn't an issue. I didn't even expect to save anything (other than personal freedom)
<DocScrutinizer05> keeping modem won't change anything to the worse for your UX, since you can disable the modem *completely*
<DocScrutinizer05> but for a device without modem, we wouldn't have any replacement device in case of warranty. ETC
fling has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
vakkov has joined #neo900
<recharged> how will the modem be disabled? with a hardware button, right?
<ZetaR> recharged: There is an internal switch controlled by the CPU.
<ZetaR> Modem has no access to it.
<recharged> but, the devices will be inspected properly prior to shipping, yes?
<DocScrutinizer05> with a electronic switch that completely breaks power to the modem. it's like unplugging a USB dongle basically. the operating of the switch is 100% under your total control
<recharged> how do you activate and disable it? with a program?