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<add_>
nEXT Browser isn't in there yet?
<Xach>
No
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<iqubic>
iqubic: Testing things
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<smokeink>
good morning
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<beach>
Hello smokeink.
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<everyone>
Good morning beach!
<beach>
Very funny.
<phoe>
Morning
<beach>
Hey phoe.
<phoe>
Hey beach.
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<beach>
A few weeks ago, I mentioned a possible project for someone who might be interested, but there were no takes, so I mention it again. I would like to see a library that handles input methods, independently of any client. As jackdaniel mentioned, there is some support for input methods in CLIM-TOS, so that should be looked into.
<beach>
If someone is interested, we could discuss what an appropriate protocol would look like.
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<fourier>
beach: are you going to ELS next week?
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<phoe>
fouric: he is, he speaks there. (:
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<fouric>
rip fourier
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<LdBeth>
Good night people
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* lyosha
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<phoe>
fouric: woop sorry
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<ecraven>
is there any lisp development environment where I can say "show me all calls to function `layout' where the fourth parameter is nil"?
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<jackdaniel>
you have function (defun a (xyz) (foo 1 2 3 xyz 5))
<jackdaniel>
does this call to foo qualify?
<jackdaniel>
it certainly does under some circumstances, when xyz=nil
<ecraven>
jackdaniel: well, it would be good enough to get the literal matches
<phoe>
ecraven: are you able to recompile #'LAYOUT?
<phoe>
if yes, (defun layout (a b c d e) (when (null d) (break)) ...)
<ecraven>
phoe: that won't work, this is a web app, I cannot make a call to all places where it appears
<ecraven>
it occurs some 100 times in my code, and I want to change those places where the last parameter is nil. not urgent, just thought there might be some good way.. I'll just look at all the places where it is called, and go through them by hand
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<Bike>
grep 'layout.*nil)' is probably what i'd go with if it's the last parameter
<Bike>
dumb, but hey
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<devon>
How to drive MP4 playback from Lisp?
<ecraven>
Bike: the second-to-last parameter is mostly a multi-line expression :-/
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<Bike>
sux
<Bike>
well, i don't think the implementation is going to retain that much information about calls, so i think you're out of luck, then
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<phoe>
devon: interface with some kind of media library.
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<devon>
phoe: lol
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<phoe>
devon: no, I am serious.
<beach>
ecraven: You have to wait for Second Climacs.
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<ecraven>
beach: hehe, seems so
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<phoe>
at the moment there are no native video decoders or players in Common Lisp, so your only option is interfacing with any kind of foreign library designed for this.
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<Xach>
92 people at the els banquet suggests there will be a good crowd for the conference
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<beach>
I kind of suspected record attendance this year.
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<beach>
So many people announced they would come for the first time.
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<Shinmera>
We'll see how many people use the opportunity to go to the beach instead of watching the talks
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<beach>
As long as they have some other participant to discuss with, that's part of the purpose.
<fourier>
92, thats good
<Xach>
i think referring to him as "the beach" is an unnecessary pedestal
<Xach>
he is a simple person like anyone else
<Shinmera>
Heh
<Shinmera>
fourier: Or bad, depending on whether one prefers smaller conferences
<fourier>
Shinmera: but at least now we can meet more people
<beach>
fourier: Yes, I'll be there. :)
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<Xach>
92 is the banquet count according to a recent email. i am sure some, like me, are bringing an extra person who will not be at the conference
<fourier>
beach: :)
<Xach>
Xof: are you going to ELS this year?
<flip214>
well, I'd still just use a pipe to ffmpeg or so
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<beach>
Xach: Definitely some extra people, yes.
* Xach
ponders bringing a gift of freshly boiled maple syrup
<beach>
Xach: I think Xof has a talk to give.
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<flip214>
well, the talk could be given via the internets or some cheap off-shoring substitute as well, right?
<Xach>
beach: so he does, thank you
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<fourier>
Xach: are you going ?
<Xach>
fourier: I am. I will be traveling tomorrow and saturday to get there.
<fourier>
fantastic
<Xach>
I am extremely nervous because my spanish is subpar and my experience with transport in madrid was poor (due to my language barrier). But I think things will work out somehow.
<flip214>
Xach: well, Friday for you is already Saturday for the Far East, right?
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<Xach>
flip214: very true and relevant!
<dim>
do we need to register to the banquet separately that from the conference itself?
<fourier>
no it was in the registration for for the conference
<beach>
dim: No, it's included.
<dim>
ok cool, so I don't have to re-read all those emails ;-)
<Shinmera>
dim: There was an option for the banquet on the registration page. It should have been ticked by default while it was still available.
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<dim>
(well re-read is an overstatement as you might have guessed)
<Shinmera>
dim: If you did have it, your receipt should include "ELS-2018-banquet" in the items listing
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<flip214>
thanks for the reminder, I should print the receipt
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<flip214>
Xach: having a (highlighted) printout and pointing to the next POI has always worked for me. At least I got some general directions out of people ;)
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<Xach>
flip214: thanks
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<sjl>
a/b 15
<sjl>
whops
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<johnnymacs>
I am looking for a really good and complete cheat sheet of the ski combinator calculus
<johnnymacs>
I only have true false not or and nor nand and identity
<beach>
johnnymacs: It's a bit off topic.
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<johnnymacs>
the lambas I write with this ski calculus will be compatible with lisp :)
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<johnnymacs>
the one I need is pair
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<johnnymacs>
For now I'll just try random combinators and see if they do what I want
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<verisimilitude>
The CFFI, while interesting, is something I'd always want to avoid.
<verisimilitude>
It takes Common Lisp and then lets you play around with C interfaces like it's Python or some garbage.
<fourier>
whats wrong with that
<fourier>
its an awesome way to interactively play with C libraries for instance
<fourier>
(apart from access to the rich infrastructure)
<verisimilitude>
I hold to the opinion that everything that can be implemented in Common Lisp should be.
<fourier>
a lot of times the implementation will be 1) not performant enough 2) just not feature rick
<fourier>
*rich
<verisimilitude>
It's typically bothersome to download a program that uses the CFFI, fourier; there's usually some shared library garbage missing.
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<verisimilitude>
I seek to replace Ncurses in the Common Lisp ecosystem and I'm inclined to believe my solution is already faster, if only because it's smaller and whatnot.
<verisimilitude>
Risking memory leaks shouldn't be necessary to control a terminal.
<verisimilitude>
Similarly, there's no reason performant XML parsing can't clearly be done in portable Common Lisp.
<fourier>
just do it then
<verisimilitude>
That's what I'm doing.
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<verisimilitude>
I already implemented the ECMA-48 standard, optimized, and have an abstract terminal controlling library built from that.
<verisimilitude>
I'm strongly considering writing programs that copy the interfaces of the Curses bindings, such as CL-CHARMS and CROATOAN.
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<verisimilitude>
I'd provide, say, FALSE-CROATOAN with a nickname of CROATOAN.
<fourier>
wouldn't say its a good idea, the interfaces are almost 1-1 ncurses api
<verisimilitude>
Then those programs wouldn't need Ncurses just to control a terminal.
<fourier>
they are missing high-level constructions which hides ncurses completely and allows to build easy-to-use text based UIs
<verisimilitude>
Part of the reason I wouldn't do it is because it's not clear which of these interfaces are popular; I wouldn't want to waste my time.
<fourier>
some high-level UI to build beautiful textmode interfaces a-la Turbo Vision is missing in all languages though (not only in CL)
<fourier>
UI API
* _death
looks at his stagnant tvision repository
<fourier>
_death: do you have tvision-like library for CL?
<fourier>
give me a link then, i would like to contribute
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<slyrus1>
I don't suppose anyone's written a json-builder for cxml have they? It would be great if i could get a JSON document back from my cxml document.
<_death>
fourier: no.. I have the beginning of one I wrote about half a year ago
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<fourier>
ive started some simple text ui implementation a while ago but got stuck as well
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<fourier>
then i've tried it couple of years ago, cl-ncurses was more complete and easy to use
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<jackdaniel>
I'm the author of the tutorial, not of cl-charms
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<slyrus1>
for that matter... are the any cxml-stp users left?
<_death>
slyrus1: I have some projects that use it
<slyrus1>
that's good to know. I get the impression lichtblau is busy with other things.
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<_death>
slyrus1: I've also seen a fork of cxml called fxml.. may be of interest
<verisimilitude>
I'm curious as to what you think of CL-CHARMS, et al., to my ACUTE-TERMINAL-CONTROL, jackdaniel.
<slyrus1>
yeah, looked interesting, but he removed xpath support, which I rely on.
<jackdaniel>
I don't understand second part of the sentence: "cl-charms *to my acute-terminal-control*"? do you mean your idea of providing library in CL which allows creating TUI?
<jackdaniel>
cl-charms is just a set of bindings and some syntactic sugar on top. this high level interfaces needs some love
<jackdaniel>
because it is quite barebones
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<jackdaniel>
if you ask me whenever we should rewrite all software in Lisp, I'd say it'd be a waste of time - there is some software which is well written and it is not written in Lisp
<jackdaniel>
rewriting libraries just for a sake of having it all in Lisp never was a sound idea to me
<jackdaniel>
rewriting them for a sake of better interoperability sounds better, but if you create a decent layer using cffi bindings it is fine too
<jackdaniel>
but I probably misunderstood the question :-)
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<pjb`>
jackdaniel: you're not wrong, there is at least one software not written in lisp that is well written.
<pjb`>
jackdaniel: but I would still say that you'd better rewrite everything in lisp, because finding the one that is well written will be a daunting task!
<pjb`>
99.9999% of the software is badly written.
<jackdaniel>
pjb`: having it written in lisp doesn't make it well written
<jackdaniel>
automagically ;)
<verisimilitude>
I meant in comparison, as a library, jackdaniel, not just the idea.
<jackdaniel>
I'd even say that Lisp encourages bad code-writing, because it extends your idea reach - if you have mess in your head it just magnifies it
<pjb`>
Let's take for example freerdp. Seems to work nicely enough (much progress has been done in the latest years). But when you look a the code (in C), it's rather horrible. Code duplication everywhere, horrible style, etc.
<jackdaniel>
verisimilitude: I've never used acute-terminal-control, so can't compare
<pjb`>
jackdaniel: well right, it's not the language, it's the programmer. What we mean is: have it rewritten by lispers! :-)
<jackdaniel>
I'm lost, but I have this itching urge to disagree despite not understanding the above ;-)
<pjb`>
jackdaniel: almost all functions in freerdp are longer than one screen height (and you know the size of screens we have nowadays, even in 16:9, you go over 2000 pixels high!).
<pjb`>
Now, of course, perhaps it's even not the lisper vs. C or java programmer that matters. Just that Lispers are usually just more experimented. Given that half the programmers have fewer than 5 years of experience…
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<verisimilitude>
Metaprogramming encourages better and more resilient design and Lisp has good metaprogramming.
<jackdaniel>
I don't agree, but I have better things to do than to defend my position :) I'll just accept the fact our opinions differ
<pjb`>
yes, but even without metaprogramming, you can still write functional abstractions. Instead of copy-and-pasting the same multi-line code structure tens of times…
<jackdaniel>
that our opinions*
<verisimilitude>
Instead of just solving the problem, you encode your thoughts into the program in a way that permits solving variations of the problem not specifically tackled by you.
<jackdaniel>
verisimilitude: there is hardly enything to compare (looking at the link you have pasted)
<jackdaniel>
anything*
<verisimilitude>
I'm giving your article a read, jackdaniel; I'll make certain to look at the functionality and see what's good.
<jackdaniel>
cl-charms is a complete library, this looks like a raw sketch of something you may start developing some day into real library
<verisimilitude>
Well, I'm using it just fine.
<verisimilitude>
It's not complete, no, though.
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<jcowan_>
Question: Which system of hygienic macros is most "Common Lisp" in feeling?
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<jcowan_>
My instinct is to say "Explicit renaming FTW", but I'd like to know what people think
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<Xach>
I don't think about anything but Common Lisp.
<verisimilitude>
What do you mean, jcowan_?
<jcowan_>
Just suppose that I had persuaded you that hygienic macros were a good thing to add to the language.
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<jcowan_>
How would you want them to be exposed?
<verisimilitude>
I wouldn't.
<verisimilitude>
They should be added by the programmer.
<verisimilitude>
If not that, jcowan_, then some WITH- macro would be fine.
<jackdaniel>
jcowan_: I'd add them with an interface which is as close to original as it is practical
<Xach>
No thanks. I don't like discussing Scheme in #lisp (or anywhere else).
<verisimilitude>
So, WITH-UNIQUE-SYMBOLS, say.
<jackdaniel>
well, this is discussion of potential CL extension
<Xach>
I don't get that impression from past discussions.
<jcowan_>
That only provides half-hygiene
<verisimilitude>
What do you mean, then?
<jackdaniel>
jcowan_: word "sterile" is better (sterile vs organic macros ;)
<easye>
~.
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<jcowan_>
eh, no
<jcowan_>
syntax-rules may be sterile (though in fact turing complete)
<jcowan_>
but explicit renaming is not
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<verisimilitude>
k
<verisimilitude>
Disregard that.
<jackdaniel>
I doubt many people will have opinions about most feasible syntax for such half-sterile macros - such constructs are not very popular among CL programmers. you could propose some syntax in a form of a library and promote your idea, then more awareness may be born
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<BoopBeep>
I have a byte array, and I want to grab a few places and convert it to an integer. Is there a way to do this without shifting each byte into a number?
<Xach>
BoopBeep: no
<BoopBeep>
Okay, thanks
<pjb`>
BoopBeep: (+ (* (+ (* (aref b 0) 256) (aref b 1)) 256) (aref b 2)) etc.
<pjb`>
but a nice compiler would generate the same code as with dpb.
<verisimilitude>
What I tend to use is ASH and LOGIOR.
<jackdaniel>
beware of unfriendly compilers
<pjb`>
(dpb (aref b 0) (byte 8 16) (dpb (aref b 1) (byte 8 8) (byte b 2)))
<fourier>
BoopBeep: have a look at nibbles library
<pjb`>
verisimilitude: well dpb and ldb are lower level.
<verisimilitude>
You should always write Common Lisp for a dumb implementation.
<verisimilitude>
Yes.
<pjb`>
ash is higher level, it's what C has.
<BoopBeep>
I'm sticking to SBCL unless some problems come up when I choose on an ARM board
<pjb`>
This is why lisp is a lower level programming language than C, and better suited for system programming.
<verisimilitude>
I should be using those two, but I've a mess of this; I may correct it later.
<jackdaniel>
BoopBeep: if you choose arm board which is 32bit, then you may miss threading
<jackdaniel>
if you need threading on arm32 you probably want ccl
<verisimilitude>
I don't know, pjb`; how easily can you segfault in Common Lisp; everyone knows the true mark of a low level language is the ability to irreparably fuck things up.
<BoopBeep>
jackdaniel: I'll keep that in mind.
<jackdaniel>
(i.e armv7, or armv8 with 32bit userspace)
<pjb`>
verisimilitude: with a good implementation, you can't, and this is why it's a good language to write sturdy systems.
<verisimilitude>
I'm joking, of course.
<verisimilitude>
I'm inclined to agree with you, pjb`.
<verisimilitude>
Besides, modern C is anything but simple.
<pjb`>
But anyways, you have implementation specific extensions, like in C. Linux is not written in ANSI C. It's written in GCC C.
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<fourier>
good read though
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<rpg>
This is a stupid question, but I'm blanking on the answer: what's the best way to print a list *completely* (i.e., without ellipsis, etc.) but also without package qualifiers?
<Xach>
rpg: a list of symbols or a list of arbitrary objects?
<rpg>
Xach: in this case it's a list of symbols, but it might (someday) have numbers in it, or sublists, as well. But no structured data like CLOS objects, structs, etc.
<rpg>
sublists would have only symbols or numbers, too...
<rpg>
It's symbolic data that needs to be read by a non-Lisp program that won't understand my namespaces...
<dim>
then use a “standard” exchange format? json commes to mind, alternatives are a plenty
<rpg>
dim: It's not my other program -- it reads s-expressions -- and I can't rewrite this enormous C++ snotball to accept JSON. Plus I'd still have the "decode the symbol" problem.
<dim>
oh, ok
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<rpg>
pierpa_: Will PRINC avoid issues with *print-length*, *print-circle*, *print-level*, yadda yadda yadda?
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<rpg>
actually, I don't know if it's length or right-margin that's tripping me up using format ~a
<pierpa_>
not sure
<pierpa_>
but you can (with-standard-io-syntax (princ ... ))
<rpg>
pierpa_: Thanks!
<pierpa_>
:)
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<pierpa_>
right-margin should not influence ~a
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<rpg>
pierpa_: That seems to have solved my problem. So it was probably *print-length* causing my issue.
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<pierpa_>
happy to know :)
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<pierpa_>
I guess you are not using weird symbol names, but in case, remember that (princ '|foo bar|) prints: foo bar
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<ecraven>
how is access to displaced arrays implemented? does it always go through one additional indirection?
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<pierpa_>
yes
<ecraven>
can the compiler alleviate this sometimes?
<ecraven>
something like get the indirection pointer once, then use that instead of going to pointer + index?
<pierpa_>
I don't think so. But I would be happy to be wring
<pierpa_>
*wrong
<ecraven>
maybe it doesn't matter anyway ;)
<ecraven>
as in, it might just be fast enough anyway
<pierpa_>
ah, yes, often is fast enough :)
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<rpg>
pierpa_: No, ok symbol names. The language I'm working with is quite restricted (and specified to be case insensitive).
<pierpa_>
rpg: i guessed so from what you had written
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<Xof>
Xach: I am going
<Xof>
I do have a talk to give, about use of Lisp to keep me from going insane while teaching
<Xof>
I should start thinking about that talk :-/
<Xof>
(but first I have
<Xof>
~15 more hours of marking to do)
<Xof>
I am surprised at the numbers going (to the banquet, at any rate)
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<k-hos>
Lisp? whats that? they all say as they eat free food
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<Xof>
I wish I had more fun stuff to report
<FareTower>
Sorry I can't come to ELS this year :-( I hope you all have lots of fun in Marbella!
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<Xof>
one sb-commit in 2.5 years is not great :-/
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<Xof>
but maybe I'll talk to some users who will come to me with Real Problems
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<Xof>
that would be good
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<d3j>
if anyone has a moment to spare for a newb... where can I set the paths for /includes and dll for when g++ is called in quicklisp installs... having trouble with antik / gsll install.
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<Xach>
I wish I knew!
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<k-hos>
you can set search directories with the -L flag in gcc, how you would tell quicklisp this I don't know
<Shinmera>
you don't
<rpg>
I think you are probably telling CFFI, not QL as such.
<Shinmera>
you also are not telling cffi, as I do not believe it handles invocation of gcc/etc.
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<Shinmera>
I don't think there's a standard system that handles calling foreign compilers
<Shinmera>
so it depends on the project at hand
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<rpg>
Shinmera: You are right -- I think there are a number of one-off solutions to driving a C compiler, or make through ASDF, but no standardized extension for that.
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<rpg>
CFFI I guess just looks for object files to load, it doesn't handle building them?
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<Shinmera>
Yes.
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<Shinmera>
The shared object discovery is also quickly delegated to the OS.
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<rpg>
Shinmera: Right, but I think you can set variables to influence it. How one is to do that before the creation of the package that the variable names live in is left as an exercise to the reader! ;-)
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<Shinmera>
You can set cffi:*foreign-library-directories*, yes
<Shinmera>
Unfortunately that often doesn't entirely do what you expect it to, since the loading of dependencies isn't done by cffi and the system probably doesn't know about the directories in that list.
<Shinmera>
It's a mess :/
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<rpg>
Ah, so if CFFI asks to load library x.so in that directory, all's well, but if x depends on y.so in that directory, you lose.
<Shinmera>
Well, you might lose in a subtle way if y is on the system, but has a different version.
<Shinmera>
Fun things like that
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<rpg>
So CFFI will make those directories visible, but they may be shadowed?
<Shinmera>
It won't make them visible.
<Shinmera>
If you have x and y in a directory that the system does not know about and you tell cffi to load x, it'll first check that directory, see it there, then load it.
<Shinmera>
but the loading is done by the OS, which will resolve dependencies.
<Shinmera>
on Linux, doing so means looking in the ld.so.cache and whatever, which likely won't include that directory.
<Shinmera>
on OS X it depends on the library -- you can have library entries with explicit relative paths.
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<Shinmera>
on windows I'm not entirely sure.
<rpg>
Shinmera: So CFFI won't shove it's library path into the OS's loader?
<rpg>
s/it's/its/
<Shinmera>
No
<Shinmera>
Which is part of the reason why CFFI does not advise using *foreign-library-directories* in the first place
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<rpg>
Shinmera: But isn't that going to make it difficult to use non-system libraries?
<Shinmera>
In fact, things are such a mess that, if you want to be 100% certain things are loaded right you need to rename your libraries to unique variants that cannot be on the system otherwise, and reproduce the dependency load order yourself manually.
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* rpg
buries his head in the sand
<Shinmera>
This includes rewriting the shared objects so that the dependency names match up.
* rpg
"Lalalala I'm not listening to you!"
<rpg>
So basically, if you are using a non-system library, just make sure it contains all of its dependencies.
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<Shinmera>
Well, except for things like libc, since including that will make things crash real hard
<Shinmera>
unless you employ even worse tricks.
<Shinmera>
But, we're getting too off-topic here, so let's just leave it at that.
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<rpg>
Shinmera: Sorry, what I really meant was "don't try to load a system that comes as multiple shared objects (unless it's installed at the OS level).
<Shinmera>
Fair enough.
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<rpg>
phoe: Was looking over your tools library and liking it. One question -- why did you make PRINT-OBJECT-READABLY be a DEFUN instead of a generic?
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<LdBeth>
Common Lisp Music uses macros to generate C libraries and corresponding loading routines so foreign libraries can be loaded as if they’re compiled Lisp files
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<LdBeth>
Which I think is very neat
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<pierpa_>
for a sufficiently evil value of neat
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<Shinmera>
What I think is actually neat is: clx' automatically generated protocol functions based on the X spec.
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* LdBeth
had never heard that
<Shinmera>
Also neat: Baggers meticulously translated the GLSL spec into a machine-readable format, which is then used to generate functions in his compiler.
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<LdBeth>
So maybe I can grub Intel 64 manual and auto generate instruction sets for assembler
<LdBeth>
Brilliant
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<Shinmera>
if it's in a machine-readable format, sure
<Shinmera>
often times things are not :/
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<verisimilitude>
The ARM instruction set does this, LdBeth.
<verisimilitude>
There's a machine usable representation.
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<LdBeth>
verisimilitude: where can I find it?
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<verisimilitude>
You'll need to search for it, LdBeth.
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<verisimilitude>
I read your article, jackdaniel; I found it interesting.
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<LdBeth>
Well it’s a little hard without an exact name. And search ARM’s ASL Specification Language gives me little results.
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* LdBeth
goes for meal
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<slyrus1>
is there an easy way to get a type of a string -- without the length? e.g. (type-of "foo") gives me (simple-array character (3)). And I want (simple-array character *).
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<pierpa_>
butlast?
<verisimilitude>
Use ARRAY-ELEMENT-TYPE.
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<verisimilitude>
You already know it's an array.
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<verisimilitude>
If you need more information, also use SIMPLE-STRING-P.
<verisimilitude>
Does this suitably answer your question, slyrus1?
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<slyrus1>
I think so. Thanks. This is in the context of closure-commons rune/rod stuff.
<verisimilitude>
If you need the particular list, (SIMPLE-ARRAY CHARACTER *), simply build it with these in, say, a backquoted expression.
<slyrus1>
right, that's what I'm doing.
<verisimilitude>
Alright.
<slyrus1>
digging a rat hole for myself though.
<verisimilitude>
What is the higher purpose of this?
<slyrus1>
it's too bad that closure-common, cxml, cxml-stp, etc... aren't maintained.
<slyrus1>
I have some code that's building some cxml-stp data structures and I occasionally run into corner cases with rod/rune types, etc...
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Bicyclidine is now known as Bike
<mfiano>
slyrus1: Also TYPE-OF isn't portable.
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<verisimilitude>
What do you mean?
<mfiano>
(type-of "foo") gives 4 different results across 6 implementations. It's not guaranteed to give a portable result.
<mfiano>
See the clhs page
<verisimilitude>
It's not guaranteed to give a particular result for some values.
<verisimilitude>
That's different than not being portable.
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<verisimilitude>
Try giving it a CONS cell and you tell me if that's ever not a CONS cell.
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<mfiano>
Sure, but that's a bit out of context. However, Edi Weitz mentions in his book to not ever use it programmatically.
<pierpa_>
it could say CONS, or (CONS FIXNUM SYMBOL), say
<verisimilitude>
Yes, but the CONS type is permitted to have two parameters, such as that.
<verisimilitude>
It's still a CONS.
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<verisimilitude>
Now, arrays have all of these specialized functions for dealing with them, but that's not a good reason to disregard TYPE-OF.
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<aeth>
(typep '(1 . 2) '(cons fixnum fixnum)) ; wow, I didn't know about that
<pierpa_>
but this way leads to haskell madness :)
<aeth>
Well... a typed cons is still necessary, so you can tell just by type checking the car the type of every element in a list
<aeth>
I don't think you can do that with the existing cons, since a cons could hold anything
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<pierpa_>
you can declare a variable to hold a (cons integer list) then it's your responsibility to ensure this is true
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<aeth>
Or you could have a struct called kons where kar is of type foo (e.g. fixnum or integer) and kons is of type (or kons null)
<aeth>
And now you know the type of everything, just by checking the first item.
<aeth>
Unfortunately, implementations are wildly inconsistent on struct type checking. Afaik, SBCL always checks, but one of CCL or ECL only checks in the constructor and one only checks in the setter.
<aeth>
So you'd have to manually override with check-type for implementations
<aeth>
s/and kons is of type/and kdr is of type/
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<pierpa_>
the following is not working (deftype integer-list () '(cons integer integer-list)) /me wonders why...
<Bike>
because deftype defines a macro, essentially
<Bike>
so that results in an infinite expansion
<pierpa_>
hmmm
<aeth>
pierpa_: That wouldn't be a good idea, though. That would be O(n) checking if it worked.
<aeth>
pierpa_: Defining a custom cons is O(1) checking
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<aeth>
(At the expense of having to write your own list library.)
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<pierpa_>
bike: ok. convinced.
<verisimilitude>
Well, it's on the programmer to not violate this, technically.
<Bike>
i can find where this is explicitly stated if you like
<aeth>
And if it's a struct, SBCL and possibly others will efficiently allocate the typed cons where it's possible, e.g. the double-float members will be unboxed.
<pierpa_>
bike: no problem. I will search myself
<verisimilitude>
Fortunately, it's easiest to check a list with, say, EVERY, instead.
<verisimilitude>
That's interesting, aeth.
<verisimilitude>
I never bothered to look, but I'd figured a CONS would usually be implemented identically, regardless of type, even in SBCL.
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<Bike>
it is. aeth is talking about a defstruct of something cons-like.
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<verisimilitude>
Alright; I appreciate it, Bike.
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<aeth>
Of course, you would have to override the accessors and constructor on an implementation-specific basis to get the desired behavior, inserting check-type's and the's where needed
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<aeth>
You'd also probably want to write a typed-list as well as some list related operations, such as do-typed-list
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<aeth>
I'm probably going to use a variation of that in one of my programs because it turns O(n) type checking into O(1), and there isn't much more than type checking done to items of the list.