<aeth>
Ime, libraries will usually work on CCL, often work on ECL, and give issues with just about any other implementation, especially 32-bit ones.
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<jack_rabbit>
yes, it is.
* pillton
doesn't want to risk starting the unit test thread again.
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<aeth>
It's hard to not write for SBCL, though. There are so many ways to figure out what's going on in SBCL.
<aeth>
I'm pretty sure of how my code behaves in SBCL, at least at the defaut optimization levels.
<aeth>
s/defaut/default/
<aeth>
Last time I checked, I couldn't find a profiling solution for CCL.
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<jack_rabbit>
The library is static-vectors, and the error is: "Foreign function not found: X86-LINUX64::|memset|"
<aeth>
Really? static-vectors works for me in CCL. It gives me issues in ECL, though, even though it's supposed to support it.
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<jack_rabbit>
hmm :/
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<aeth>
But that does seem to match my experience. Things that use CFFI are the most problematic.
<pierpa>
duh
<aeth>
cl-sdl2 alone limits my project to SBCL, CCL, and ECL.
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<aeth>
It's unfortunate that unless CLX works for you there's no way to avoid at least some foreign code.
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<White_Flame>
aeth: telnet or web interfaces ftw
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<jack_rabbit>
Yeah, unfortunately mcclim seems to need static-vectors...
<aeth>
interesting
<aeth>
static-vectors seems to have taken over the world
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<White_Flame>
seems like that should have been part of FFI
<aeth>
Now if only there were convenient solutions for other things
<pfdietz>
SBCL is about 500K LOC. Clasp/LLVM is maybe 5M LOC, last I checked.
<pillton>
White_Flame: I'm not sure what problem static-vectors solves. Do some implementations invoke the GC during foreign function calls?
<White_Flame>
it's not during, it would be between
<Bike>
i don't see why they wouldn't
<White_Flame>
you can't pass a pointer to foreign code if it could be moved at any time in the future
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<pillton>
It is only a problem if the foreign code retains the pointer.
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<White_Flame>
...right
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<White_Flame>
and in a lot of I/O cases, including graphics, the call does not synchronously encapsulate all access to the buffer you give it
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<aeth>
pillton: Without static-vectors, you're either going to be working with a foreign array through stuff like mem-aref (not a pleasant experience) or you're going to copy from a CL-native vector into a foreign array at some point (which can kill your performance).
<aeth>
With static vectors, there's no need to do either, as long as you're in control of the allocation and not the foreign library.
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<aeth>
The downside is that you're going to either have to use with-static-vector/with-static-vectors or you'll have to explicitly call free-static-vector in your own unwind-protect at some point.
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<aeth>
I'm guessing you also can't use (declare (dynamic-extent foo)) on a static-vector to stack allocate, so that's another restriction.
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<aeth>
Another downsize is that it seems to fool SBCL's type inference, so I have to (declare (whatever-type foo)) after with-static-vector or a let initializing the static-vector in order to get efficient sequence code, which is unnecessary with a normal vector.
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<pillton>
I always used sb-ext:array-storage-vector and cffi:with-pointer-to-vector-data.
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<jack_rabbit>
Can anyone with CCL execute (read-from-string "#_memset") and let me know what happens?
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<pillton>
(values x86-darwin64::|memset| 8)
<jack_rabbit>
:( Can't figure out why that doesn't work for me.
<pillton>
Does rebuilding help?
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<jack_rabbit>
Hmm. Appears I may need to update the "interface database"
<jack_rabbit>
Rebuilding CCL?
<pillton>
Yes.
<jack_rabbit>
I got it as a binary package. Hang on, i'll try building it from source.
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<jack_rabbit>
huh. I didn't even need to rebuild. Just used the download from the clozure.com site rather than my distro repo.
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<aeth>
It would be very unusual for a popular QL library not to work on CCL.
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<aeth>
Everything on QL has to run on at least two implementations, so supporting #1 and #2 by popularity is pretty much the absolute minimum.
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<TMA>
also ccl 1.6 32-bit no longer runs on 64-bit windows 10
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<rme>
TMA: Support for running the 32-bit lisp on 64-bit Windows was added (by yours truly) in ccl 1.7.
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<TMA>
rme: oh, I never knew. I have an old 1.6 sitting in a directory transferred from an old 32-bit XP system and I tried to run it.
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<TMA>
rme: thanks for the addition
<schweers>
TMA: out of curiosity: why do you run a recent OS in 32-bit mode?
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
<theemacsshibe[m]>
afternoon beach!
<shrdlu68>
Good morning!
<schweers>
Good morning beach!
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<TMA>
schweers: I do not. I ran XP in 32 bit mode, I run everything in 64 bits since. I would return to 32-bit mode on low memory devices like low-end netbooks though.
<TMA>
It is wasteful to use eight bytes for pointers when you have 2 gigs total memory.
<schweers>
okay, that explains. I was wondering how windows 10 would perform with a maximum memory of ... 3GB? I know that 4GB or close to that are possible, but if I remember correctly, windows has a weird limit on 32 bit systems.
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<schweers>
It sure is, but then again, I was thinking about running windows 10, which -- I presume -- needs lots of memory just to boot.
<flip214>
TMA: but having more registers in 64bit-mode might mean less memory needs (eg. for temporary data) and faster computation as well
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<TMA>
flip214: that's true for arithmetic-intensive workloads. I guess most of what I do is data traversing, not number crunching
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<hajovonta>
hi all
<shka>
hello
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<aeth>
The specifics of Lisp complicate 32v64 bit further. e.g. larger fixnums and unboxed single-floats
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<jack_rabbit>
schweers, windows 32-bit (IIRC) reserved ~1GB of address space for kernel stuff, so only 3GB available to user programs.
<schweers>
I thought there was something else, but I may be wrong. Not my main platform anyway ;)
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<flip214>
TMA: still, being able to hold much more data (eg. pointers!) in CPU registers might help, not only when doing arithmetic.
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<hlavaty>
hi i have a fileSystems."/var/lib/foo" entry in configuration.nix. the disk failed and now on boot the machine goes into rescue mode. how do i disable the disk so that the machine starts normally again and i can ssh in an upload and activate new configuration?
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<hlavaty>
ah sorry wrong channel
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<TMA>
flip214: I refuse to take position on that matter when I have no data. I am saying I can pack twice as many conses into the same amount of memory. I do not have performance data to tell, whether it will be faster. the execution speed is nowadays usually severely constrained by the memory access time (that's why beach's generic function dispatch scheme that removes one memory access is so awesome)
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<TMA>
flip214: so I guess, it might be faster for some workloads. your guess of the registers helping might be better or worse than mine. without data there is nothing we can do to tell them appart
<TMA>
*apart (?)
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<makomo>
how can i define a function in a different package if i want to do it within a file which has a different package in (in-package ...) on the top?
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<makomo>
i tried using (in-package) right before the defun (and then again to switch back). i've also tried rebinding *package*. none worked
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<makomo>
it always defines the function within the package that's at the top of the file
<Shinmera>
(defun foo::bar ..)
<makomo>
is this due to slime/emacs or?
<makomo>
oh, a double colon
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<Shinmera>
If the symbol is already exported from the other package you can also do foo:bar, of course.
<makomo>
i tried with a single colon and it failed, i guess that makes sense now
<makomo>
mhm
<makomo>
this was a fresh package without any symbols, so that's why it failed
<makomo>
Shinmera: and could you do it using (in-package)?
<makomo>
or do you maybe know the reason the above failed?
<Shinmera>
I don't know what you did, but it should work.
<Bike>
when you say "defined", do you mean slime C-c C-c
<makomo>
what exactly is bound to C-c C-c? i have different keybinds
<makomo>
actually, no i don't
<makomo>
Bike: yes
<Bike>
slime-compile-defun
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<Bike>
i don't know how slime decides a package to read code in, it might just look for the first in-package in the file
<makomo>
i did slime-eval-defun, but it should be the same
<Bike>
i would recommend against using multiple in-packages in one file anyway
<Shinmera>
It should work even with multiple in-packages.
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<makomo>
Bike: i agree, but i'm curious why it's failing
<Shinmera>
makomo: what exactly is the failure
<Bike>
well, as far as i remember it should work.
<makomo>
it doesn't define the function within the package i want it to
<Shinmera>
I'm gonna go ahead and guess it errors because of something that isn't related to the name of the function
<makomo>
but within the one that is at the top of the file
<makomo>
i.e. when i say "fail" i don't mean "it throws an error"
<makomo>
it fails to do the expected thing
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<Bike>
quick test has it working for me.
<Bike>
as in, (in-package #:foo) (defun bar () 'foo) (in-package #:foo2) (defun bar () 'foo2), C-c C-c the last, get (foo2::bar) => foo2::foo2
<Shinmera>
So, again, I don't know what you're doing.
<makomo>
hmm, you have them as separate forms, i guess this is the "problem"?
<makomo>
i had it inside a progn
<makomo>
i.e. a single top-level form
<Shinmera>
Well duh, a form is read as a single form.
<Bike>
wait, like (progn (in-package ...) (defun ...))?
<makomo>
yeah
<Bike>
yeah that's going to read the entire progn, and use the previous in-package for it.
<Shinmera>
The reader reads only complete forms. By the time it's evaluated, and the package switch would happen, it's already read.
<makomo>
i remember the same issue i had with quicklisp, loading a library in the same form and using it, but that made sense because reading happens before evaluation
<Shinmera>
So does this, same explanation.
<Bike>
yes, that's what's happening here as well, after a fashion
<makomo>
Shinmera: oh, so the symbol that names the defun
<Bike>
not that slime actually evaluates the in-package
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<makomo>
would there still be a way to create a macro which would temporarily switch packages, evaluate a body and then switch back?
<Shinmera>
Not generally, no.
<makomo>
i see
<Bike>
no, because you read before evaluating/compiling, and macroexpansion happens during evaluation/compilation
<makomo>
right
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<Shinmera>
A macro could do nasty things with trying to guess what the read form of a symbol was and translate it according to that
<Shinmera>
But when you read, you lose information, so it's not entirely possibly.
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<Shinmera>
*possible
<Bike>
for the purpose of this question, i'm assuming that evil magic is prohibited by the ancient treaty
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<makomo>
so the way DEFUN knows in which package to define the function is by the symbol that names the function? i.e. it doesn't use *package* directly (but this is used by the reader when interning symbols then?)?
<smokeink>
what about reader macros
<smokeink>
can they be used to do such evil things ?
<Bike>
defun doesn't know anything about packages
<Bike>
it gets a symbol as a name, it just uses that
<makomo>
oh, it just sets the function cell of the symbol
<makomo>
forgot about that
<Bike>
(defun name lambda-list ...body...) expands into `(setf (fdefinition ',name) (lambda ,lambda-list ,@body))
<Bike>
plus complications
<makomo>
mhm
<adlai>
smokeink: lol readers can do pretty much anything unless you castrate your repl
<makomo>
an unrelated question. i made this spreadsheet-like thing where the cells in the sheet can contain arbitrary lisp code as their formulas. the code gets compiled at runtime and attached to the cell, and is run whenever the cells needs to update its value
<makomo>
well, actually, sort-of-related
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<makomo>
while the code gets to COMPILE, it has already been read right?
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<makomo>
so any (in-package) calls within COMPILE will have no effect (assuming for the moment that somehow i could provide multiple top-level forms within COMPILE)
<tfb>
makomo: yes.
<Bike>
"top-level forms" are not a relevant concept to COMPILE
<Bike>
anyway, it sounds like you're arranging the compilation yourself, so surely you can just see when you've written it to READ the code
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<makomo>
so if i have a macro which takes lisp code and attaches it to a cell, there's no way to make this code live inside some "cell-user" package because by the time it even gets to COMPILE it has already been READ within the current package
<Bike>
well it depends on what you mean by "lisp code"
<makomo>
a lisp form
<Bike>
oh. yep. forms have already been read
<makomo>
what other case did you have in mind?
<Bike>
If you had a, like, graphical spreadsheet application like Excel, the user would input code into a cell or whatever, and then you'd have to READ it yourself
<makomo>
ah yeah, true
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<smokeink>
but can't one define a symbol in the "cell-user" package that calls that code (no matter from what package) ?
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<smokeink>
makomo: what are you trying to achieve
<Bike>
generally, if the user is writing lisp code themselves though, as normal source, ikt's their responsibility to put it in the right package, you know?
<makomo>
it's just a toy spreadsheet thingy that we were supposed to make, but i went and made it in lisp and realized i could use anything as the cell's formula
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<smokeink>
just import all symbols into that cell-user's package, make them available there
<makomo>
that wasn't my problem (if i understood what you're saying). i only wanted the code provided within the macro to live within another package
<makomo>
so i would have a "cell-user" or "cell-user-impl" thingy which would have built-in functions for these cell formulas
<makomo>
and then you can write a macro without prefixing these built-ins with "cell-user:" constantly
<makomo>
(this macro is the one that takes code and attaches it to a cell)
<makomo>
now of course, if this was a proper application, the user would input a string of lisp and i would READ it myself, etc.
<makomo>
or perhaps it would happen within a REPL too but just within the "cell-user" package
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<makomo>
another question -- how would you implement something to not allow the user to access any functions that aren't within cell-user, i.e. stop them from using malicious code as formulas for cells?
<makomo>
and also to not be able to use any other packages, etc.?
<makomo>
what is the general way stuff like this is done? is it even done? a separate lisp image?
<theemacsshibe[m]>
I'd probably either scan the forms before evaluating them, or have a separate interpreter.
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<theemacsshibe[m]>
Using something like secure-reader helps if you don't want evil reader macros like #.(hose-my-computer)
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<makomo>
smokeink: i remember that, i'll reread it, thanks
<Shinmera>
For that particular problem you can just use (let ((*read-eval* NIL)) ..)
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<scymtym>
regarding reading untrusted input securely: https://github.com/robert-strandh/Eclector is a portable, customizable reader which is slowly becoming usable as of late
<makomo>
using a separate lisp image would however break the interaction with the spreadsheet application itself?
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<smokeink>
no need for a separate image, just use a separate reader or scan the forms to check if there are any blacklisted symbols in it,etc
<TMA>
actually whitelisting might be more secure
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<mfiano>
#lispgames is hosting the annual Lisp Game Jam which begins in about 10 hours. As of now there are over 100 participants this year. If anyone here wanted to participate, you still have time to sign up: https://itch.io/jam/lisp-game-jam-2018
<makomo>
smokeink: ok, thanks
<mfiano>
Sorry, 16 hours. Apparently my hwclock is skewed to hell.
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<jcowan>
the x32 ABI is designed to deal with low-memory 64-bit systems; you get 32-bit pointers but everything else is like x86_64.
<jcowan>
AFAIK it exists only in Linux ATM. It can provide improved performance by keeping more things in cache.
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<beach>
Bike: Are y'all back home?
<Bike>
yes. well, now i'm at work.
<beach>
I see, yes. I just meant the side of the Atlantic.
<Bike>
mhm.
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<schweers>
beach: I take it you’re referring to ELS being over?
<schweers>
if so, how was it?
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<beach>
It is. And it was excellent!
<schweers>
good to hear :)
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<schweers>
eww ... entering the search term "els 2018" into youtube seems to result in rap battles or something
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<beach>
Try "european lisp symposium".
<schweers>
just did
<schweers>
nothing from this year (yet?), but the results are related to what I wanted to find \o/
<beach>
And the videos are not going to be available yet.
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<beach>
Plus, the most important part is (as usual) the discussions with other participants. Not the talks.
<schweers>
I guess so, but I know that those are not going to be captured on tape ;)
<schweers>
it was a two day conference?
<beach>
Right. I am encouraging you to attend next year (Genoa).
<beach>
Yes, Monday and Tuesday.
<schweers>
I wondered: how’s the ratio from audience to speakers?
<beach>
You can count the speakers from the program. I think there might have been 90 or so participants.
<schweers>
So it’s not weird to be there and not be a speaker.
<beach>
Not at all.
<beach>
It would be the norm.
<Bike>
like me!
<beach>
Maybe 15 speakers tops, plus the lightning talks.
<Bike>
though my card said i was a speaker for some reason.
<beach>
Well, they didn't know which of several coauthors would give the talk.
<Bike>
yeah probably.
<Xof>
you should send a bug report to the author of the card writing software
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<schweers>
it doesn’t say where it will be next year on the website yet, or am I missing something?
<rme>
Bike: It's a pity that I didn't get to meet you in person.
<rme>
Or did I and I forgot? That would be a typically embarrassing thing for me to do.
<Xof>
it's only been two days and I have forgotten most people's names :-(
<Xof>
blogging is a challenge
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<Bike>
schweers: another benefit of going is learning where next year's is in person
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<Bike>
rme: i'm terrible with names, faces, and talking, so
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<Shinmera>
Integrating the name tags into the rest of els-web is on the to do
<beach>
The tags should also mention IRC handles.
<Shinmera>
Yes, we can add stuff like that
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<beach>
Bike: Your last ELS talk was great.
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<Bike>
presenting i can do okay
<beach>
Yeah, definitely.
<Bike>
i still think i was kind of dry, but some people liked it well enough so i guess it's fine
<beach>
Yes, it was.
<beach>
heisig had an interesting evaluation of my inlining talk. Something like "that wasn't too bad, given the boring subject". :)
<scymtym>
Bike: i watched the recording (last year's, i mean) yesterday and i liked it as well
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<Bike>
people were saying interesting stuff about your talk too. ideas for when to actually be partial
<rme>
haha I can hear heisig's voice saying that
<Bike>
scymtym: thanks
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<Shinmera>
I would have liked some more insightful feedback on my talk, but given that I screwed up I guess I couldn't expect too much
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<Bike>
i really think you're beating yourself up too much about that. "but now, you see, YOU'VE BEEN WATCHING MY SOFTWARE THIS ENTIRE TIME!!" is pretty powerful
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<Bike>
probably there weren't a lot of game programmers in the room, though. i barely know graphics stuff
<Shinmera>
It's such a dumb thing to happen though. Funnily enough if I had used SAL9000's machine it wouldn't have happened since I did have all the textures on my memory stick copy, but not my local git clone.
<Shinmera>
Yeah, I guess.
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<Shinmera>
Though that makes me wonder what area would have had the most representation in the audience
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<scymtym>
CL implementors?
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<Bike>
ha, maybe.
<jackdaniel>
fyi: sea is still beautiful here :-)
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<Xof>
lisp implementors present (that I noticed): rme, me, drmeister, dougk, Rajesh Jayaprakash, Kevin Layer
<Xof>
that might be 7% of the attendees, if you count me anyway. 6% if you don't :)
<drmeister>
Howdy
<Bike>
take that, jackdaniel
<Xof>
oh no wait, Martin Simmons was there too
<jackdaniel>
huh, likewise Bike ;-)
<Xof>
but actually I think implementor density has been higher in past years
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<drmeister>
Yeah - you can toss Bike into that list. :-)
<Xof>
see, that's how out of date I am
<Xof>
isolated in my little corner of the world
<Xof>
problem is, "lisp implementors" is a poorly-defined set
<Xof>
we are all lisp implementors
<drmeister>
No, no, no problem.
<Xof>
some of us just implement stuff that other people have already done the hard work of defining :-)
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<Bike>
on the subject of implementing, actual question: i asked didier about his talk and i don't think either of us could come up with a reason a user would want to subclass method-combination or even define methods on compute-effective-method, because the regular method combination mechanism already allows arbitrary code
<Bike>
he wanted to do that multiple-combos-for-one-gf thing, but that's kind of a different direction
<Bike>
so... anybody have any idea?
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<flip214>
for a method-combination that is not already supported?
<Bike>
i mean, there's define-method-combination
<Bike>
as one of probably not very many who's actually defined their own long form method combination, i thought it was adequate
<flip214>
well, how about a method combination that sums up all only _positive_ results of all the methods?
<flip214>
yeah, you could use 'append and do an explicit reduce for the list, but TIMTOWTDI
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<Bike>
i don't... i don't know what that initialism means
<schweers>
bike: there is more than one way to do it
<Bike>
oh
<Bike>
well i don't think i understand how specialization would help with that
<Bike>
you'd just have your methods expand into (let ((#:sum 0)) (let ((#:mresult (call-method ...))) (when (plusp #:mresult) (incf #:sum mresult))) ...more methods...)
<Bike>
since the built in mechanism lets you do arbitrary code, i don't see the use, i guess
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<Bike>
this is a pretty fuckin obscure question, i realize
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<Xof>
I reserve the right to think about it some more
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<Bike>
naturally
<Bike>
i am going to try to fix things so method combination redefinition works cleanly, at least
<Bike>
not that that's much of a priority
<schweers>
Bike: which implementation are you working on?
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<jackdaniel>
he works with drmeister and beach on clasp/cleavir
<pfdietz2>
one day that will be ready for me to play with
<schweers>
nice
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<Shinmera>
pfdietz2: People are still wrangling with the existing ANSI tests.
<pfdietz2>
Need to add co:stab
<pfdietz2>
cl:standard
<pfdietz2>
to those. How did I miss that?
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<Araly>
hello, I was wondering, how do you run something written in lisp outside of a repl, once compiled for example
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<Xach>
araly: there are many options.
<Xach>
araly: some options involve running a binary file like any other program.
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<Xach>
araly: some options involve turning your lisp program into a kind of script that runs like a shell or perl or ruby script.
<araly>
I see a .fasl next to my .lisp files, I thought that might be the executable or something
<Xach>
i like the binary file way, if i have to, but prefer to work within the repl whenever feasible.
<Xach>
araly: .fasl is a compiled file, but one that is meant to quickly load into lisp, rather than run directly.
<araly>
okay, I can't seem to run it from the terminal anyways
<Xach>
repl functions are compiled and fast and have a much richer interactive experience in general.
<Xach>
you pass objects and return objects, rather than pass strings and stream inputs and receive strings and stream outputs.
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<Xach>
and you can intercede more easily when things go wrong
<Xach>
but since i don't want to interact and intercede from e.g. cron, that's when i use a compiled binary.
<araly>
I'm learning some lisp on my own, and I thought it could be interesting to try and re write a discord.js bot I have in lisp using lispcord, a library I found. I can run the discord.js bot in a server, as it's nodejs, I thought how was I going to make that work in lisp
<beach>
araly: Creating an executable is something you need to do one single time very late in a project, so you almost never have to do it.
<beach>
araly: In particular, if you are learning Common Lisp, that is definitely not the way to run the programs you develop.
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<araly>
beach: so should I not write a bot or another program that is supposed to run on a server in common lisp ?
<beach>
araly: That is not what I am saying.
<beach>
araly: I am saying that it is best to test most of your functions, not the entire program, interactively.
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<beach>
araly: Since you can run incomplete Common Lisp programs, you don't have this idea that you need the full code and link it before you can run it.
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<araly>
beach: oh, while theyt are developed okay. but that would be the way once they are finished, or is there another better way ?
<beach>
araly: What Xach said I guess. But since you are still learning, you won't need it for some time.
<araly>
beach: sure okay. While I'm at it, do you know if it's possible to use a bitmap font in emacs ?
<beach>
araly: I don't, and that would be a question for #emacs rather than #lisp, which is dedicated to Common Lisp.
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<Ukari>
how to enable hint when edit .lisp file like hint in slime repl when use emacs?
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<phoe>
Ukari: which exactly hint? company-mode?
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<Ukari>
for example, when i input cffi: and TAB, symbols in cffi package will show in another frame
<shka_>
it works for me out of the box
<shka_>
are you in the slime mode?
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<Ukari>
shka_, yes
<Bike>
alt tab.
<Bike>
or ESC tab
<nirved>
Ukari: in .lisp file i use ctrl-tab
<Xach>
It was very nice to meet #lisp people for the first time or see them again at ELS.
<phoe>
Xach: I have exactly the same feeling.
<Shinmera>
Yes.
<Xach>
I am hoping that after perhaps 48 to 72 days of recovery my urge to hack created by ELS will be equaled by my energy to hack
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<Ukari>
thanks
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<Shinmera>
Fortunately I'm not very tired, but I am tied up with non-lisp stuff.
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<phoe>
Xach: 72 days is a long time
<Xach>
my earnest suggestion is never to get old
<nirved>
ops, it's ctrl-c tab
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<makomo>
Shinmera: i've watched that before ELS even begun :-)
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<Kevslinger>
What are the biggest pros and cons of programming in Lisp? Is that a reasonable question to ask?
<phoe>
Kevslinger: you start being a weirdo to some people
<shka_>
phoe: you were always a weirdo
<phoe>
see?
<MichaelRaskin>
Well, you are not obligated to reveal that you program in Lisp
<shka_>
but since you program in lisp, you are weirdo to other weirdos
<phoe>
also, the biggest cons I have ever seen was four words long
<shka_>
money
<phoe>
I think it had two words of tag or something and then two words for two pointers to its car and cdr
<shka_>
not to much, and not easy to grab
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<MichaelRaskin>
Do not program exclusively in X. True for Lisp, too.
<shka_>
libs quality varies, sometimes "obvious" stuff is missing
<shka_>
pros: some decent libs are present, multithreading with system threads (and lparallel), decent performance most of the time, not that many libs written in C
<Kevslinger>
phoe: Boooooooooooooooooo
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<cgay>
Kinda depends on what you're comparing to also.
<MichaelRaskin>
You can mix and match various paradigms in your code; you might not want to have code like that, but you could gain some perspective.
<MichaelRaskin>
Also depends on the goals…
<shka_>
fairly easy to debug, language is powerful (CLOS, macros)
<shka_>
does not force into one style
<phoe>
pros: you end up with a very pleasant hacking&prototyping platform that CL is, when you use it properly (interactive environment like slime, debugger, inspector, stepper)
<Shinmera>
Kevslinger: Pro: I like using it. Con: None of my friends do.
<shka_>
and there is some nice literature using around lisp family as a whole
<Kevslinger>
Shinmera: I have faith in Till. I think he'll learn to like the language
<shka_>
that would be it i think
<phoe>
Shinmera: +1
<MichaelRaskin>
Weaklings. I once converted a Python job into a Common Lisp job, and afterwards my direct superior sometimes uses Racket for isolated projects.
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<shka_>
teach me master…
<phoe>
> Weaklings.
<phoe>
gods damn you, I spat my food all over my keyboard from laughter
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<shka_>
one lisp man
<MichaelRaskin>
Well, it helps to have externally imposed deadlines that make no sense
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<MichaelRaskin>
That means that as long as you produce reliable correct code, nobody dares to discuss style.
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<MichaelRaskin>
Then you show why writing Python as if it were a Lisp makes some part of the system faster to beat into submission in a tense situation
<ebrasca>
Hi
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<phoe>
Hey ebrasca
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<dtornabene>
MichaelRaskin #notallheroswearcapes
<MichaelRaskin>
Then it becomes clear that the amount of local libraries needed for a system is high enough that language is the least of the worries…
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<ebrasca>
phoe: How was your ELS?
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<phoe>
ebrasca: it was amazing.
<phoe>
I need to sleep now. See you!
* Xach
puts his phoe calligraphy in a place of honor at his workstation
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<phoe>
omg
* phoe
blushes
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<jmercouris>
hi, Shinmera has some package for building binaries IIRC, but I can't remember the name
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<MichaelRaskin>
By the way, ASDF does have some support for creating executables built-in
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<Shinmera>
that's what deploy uses.
<jmercouris>
MichaelRaskin: Thanks for the tip, I know about that already :)
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<jasom>
My preferred method is just a thin wrapper around uiop:dump-image
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<jmercouris>
I just wanted something to make a .app bundle on OSX that wouldn't require any work from myself
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<jmercouris>
I remembered that Nic's tool supports that
<jasom>
oh, .app bundles are harder. I usually punt and use automator to launch my script :)
<jmercouris>
jasom: punt?
<jasom>
jmercouris: another way of saying "give up"
<jmercouris>
you make an applescript to launch the exectuable?
<jmercouris>
oh, I see
<MichaelRaskin>
kick away the problem
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<jasom>
jmercouris: yeah, it's pretty easy and you can drop the executable in the .app bundle that automator makes (I think it's called automator, I stopped using macs much about a year ago)
<Shinmera>
Deploy's app bundle mechanism should work straight away.
<Shinmera>
At least it did when I last tested it...
<jmercouris>
Well, I'll let you know if it fails
<Shinmera>
Who knows what apple decided to break in the meantime
<jasom>
Shinmera: that's good to know
<jmercouris>
Apple doesn't just randomly change their APIs
<jmercouris>
unless you are using private API
<Shinmera>
Seems to me they do
<jmercouris>
in which case, reap what you sow
<phoe>
they merely randomly deprecate it
<jmercouris>
Shinmera: You don't even use a Mac
* jasom
switched to making web apps which solved a lot of deployment issues
<MichaelRaskin>
It seems not random, but carefully planned to inflict the optimal amount of pain
<Shinmera>
jmercouris: I do though
<jmercouris>
Your main machine is not a Mac
<jmercouris>
Unless you happen to be running a Linux VM every time you stream
<jmercouris>
in which case, I take back everything I said :D
<phoe>
why does it matter
<Shinmera>
I don't see how that invalidates what I've experienced
<jmercouris>
I'm suggesting he isn't *that* much of an expert on Apple API
<fourier>
any shell glob filename matching implementation for CL around?
<jasom>
No *true* mac user would complain about Apple's APIs
<Shinmera>
I'm not, but programs randomly break between versions and it fucking pisses me off
<Shinmera>
It's a waste of my god damn time that there's no compatibility
<jmercouris>
I think it angers all of us :)
<jasom>
At least it's better than most linux distros
<jmercouris>
Rosetta was supported for many many many years before it was dropped off
<jmercouris>
I think the compatibility is quite good, I can launch applications from 5-10 years ago
<jasom>
fourier: there is one buried in plush, but it's not factored out
<jmercouris>
through several major versions, but anyways ,this is offtopic
<Shinmera>
jmercouris: I can't even compile Portacle on 10.10 and have it run on 10.12
<jmercouris>
Compile on 10.12 targeting 10.10, and you should have no problems
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<fourier>
yep just to convert wildcards to cl-pprcre regexp i have already, im more interested with proper implementation taking care of whenever it has trailing /, ** for recursive subdirectory search etc
<jasom>
Ah it doesn't implement ** since that's not in posix and plush was just implementing posix
<jasom>
and plush splits the path into directories before matching the PCRE, so that implementation is probably useless for you
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<fourier>
thanks anyway, will have a look for ideas
<fourier>
btw dat readme :)
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<jmercouris>
Ah, yes, very Lispy readme
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<jasom>
hurray for quickproject :)
<jasom>
I wrote plush for didactic purposes, not with the intent that anyone might use it
<jasom>
It's up on github primarily because it's easier to post links to code than to pastebin bits and pieces when it comes up in conversation
<jmercouris>
Yeah, it's good especially to help provide context when linking snippets
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<dtornabene>
jasom: whats that macro "defrule" from in the linked code?
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<dtornabene>
holy shit is that in the standard
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<jmercouris>
dtornabene: it does not appear in the hyperspec
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<dtornabene>
googling brought it up in lispworks documentation, hence my initial surprise
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<pierpa>
I'd think it's an obvious choice for a a macro defining a rule, that it must have been used million of times in unrelated projects
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<dtornabene>
yeah, fair amount of hits on the googles, just had never seen it before
<dtornabene>
and it didn't appear defined anywhere else in the project on first glance
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<adlai>
Bike: I've been thinking (on and off, for years, absolutely years) about method combinations for specifying nonsequential behavior.