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<k-hos>
so are there any more up to date llvm bindings for common lisp than cl-llvm?
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<iqubic>
lambda
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<pierpal>
tagbody
<pierpal>
is clozure.com down?
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<pierpal>
ccl.clozure.com that is
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<jeosol>
pierpal: can confirm.
<jeosol>
can't reach the site.
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<pierpal>
hmmm
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<Josh_2>
Haven't slept yet :O
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<Josh_2>
Coursework deadline on Tuesday
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<shrdlu68>
In pages 6-7 of the clim user manual (pdf), I can't get that simple example to work. It seems (define-application-frame my-first-clim-app...) should define a class with the name my-first-clim-app, but the interpreter warns that it's an undefined variable.
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<beach>
I am guessing a package problem. You are probably not in the CLIM-USER package.
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<phoe>
hey, morning
<phoe>
Shinmera: what is an undefined variable? MY-FIRST-CLIM-APP?
<phoe>
if so, then the symbol DEFINE-APPLICATION-FRAME has not been defined to name a macro, at which point it's likely that you did not :USE the proper packages.
<jackdaniel>
phoe: it was resolved
<jackdaniel>
he copied code from pdf
<phoe>
oh, gotcha.
<jackdaniel>
and it replaced quote with some other character
<phoe>
Shinmera: woops, sorry
<phoe>
oh wow, that's a silly thing
<jackdaniel>
I do silly things all the time
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<hajovonta>
hello
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<beach>
Hello hajovonta.
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<hajovonta>
hi beach
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<phoe>
I need to get in touch with the administrator of http://clozure.com ASAP. The site was attacked and is serving phishing pages.
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<White_Flame>
were they running Drupal? that was fresh in the media on how it's being newly hacked
<phoe>
same link as shka posted, just without google insanity
<puchacz>
shka, phoe - but I don't think I need file at all
<puchacz>
files are not updated in realtime, they are "flushed" now and then
<phoe>
I think the same thing - he is not opening a file, he's running a program and getting a stream
<puchacz>
phoe: that's right. the program might be running for long
<shka>
well, ok
<hajovonta>
puchacz: I had this problem recently, and I ended up with (close stream) and (setf stream nil) and this would let the GC collect them
<phoe>
sounds like a case for a with-open-process macro
<shka>
hmmm
<puchacz>
hajovonta: what's more, I want similar mechanism to work on lispworks..... IF there is something fishy about reading program output as it grows, I might just drop this functionality
<phoe>
maybe UIOP has something for this
<shka>
puchacz: what you are using for streams, btw?
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<shka>
those are unix pipes?
<puchacz>
shka: whatever is returned by sbcl's run program
<phoe>
I could do it this evening unless someone feels up to the task
<hajovonta>
but as I stated in the readme, it runs everything through "unbuffer". I tried other approaches but this was the only one that would actually work in practice
<Shinmera>
if I remember correctly uiop's capabilities with regards to attaching arbitrary streams to i/o is limited
<puchacz>
hajavonta: without setting process slot containing stream to nil, did you have memory leak?
<Shinmera>
due to limited implementation support
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<Shinmera>
as in, some implementations don't allow you to do it.
<puchacz>
sorry, hajovonta (above)
<shka>
hmm, i see
<hajovonta>
puchacz: I don't remember, but I think so
<shka>
sad
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<puchacz>
omg
<puchacz>
:wait t is the way to go it seems
<puchacz>
and forget output
<phoe>
as for buffering, force-output *should* perhaps work
<phoe>
but I'll check it
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<puchacz>
btw, can I see something like "open files count"?
<puchacz>
I guess not
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<hajovonta>
i think there's something like this for handles
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<Shinmera>
you can check /proc if you're on linux
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<phoe>
huh
<phoe>
UIOP:RUN-PROGRAM is troublesome to me
<phoe>
UIOP/RUN-PROGRAM:RUN-PROGRAM: :STREAM is not allowed as synchronous I/O redirection argument
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<schweers>
phoe: how (when) do you expect to read from or write to a stream, when your program is synchronously waiting for the forked process to finish?
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<phoe>
schweers: gaaah, you are correct
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<phoe>
this should be using LAUNCH-PROGRAM
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<ebzzry>
What happened to clozure.com?
<Shinmera>
It got hacked, presumably.
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<phoe>
Yes, it got hacked. I'm waiting for someone from Clozure Associates to respond.
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<Xach>
clozure folks are aware of and working on clozure.com fix
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<phoe>
Good to know!
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<Xach>
phoe: i would expect any expect-like library to use ptys, but i don't see it when glancing at the code.
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<phoe>
Xach: neither do I, but all I did was try to translate from SBCL-specific calls to portability libraries.
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<puchacz>
hi again, when running slime in *inferior-lisp* buffer, ie not remotely, can I have 2 or 3 REPLs in different threads pls?
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<shka>
you have interesting question, i'll give you that
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<phoe>
puchacz: yes, you can do that - you can create multiple REPLs on a single image
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<puchacz>
phoe: how please? I know if I connect to remote image, I can have many REPLs
<puchacz>
but I don't know how to do it locally
<phoe>
puchacz: the way I do it, is:
<phoe>
1) I spawn a SBCL from terminal, load swank, start a local server
<phoe>
2) multiple slime-connect from emacs
<Xach>
Ah. I wouldn't bother with that.
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<puchacz>
phoe: yes, using slime "remotely".
<puchacz>
not "locally"
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<phoe>
puchacz: I don't know a way to do this from inside emacs with slime being run the default way.
<puchacz>
phoe: ok, tks - np
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<phoe>
puchacz: on the other hand, I do multi-repl so rarely that I never thought of doing anything about it.
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<billstclair>
clozure.com’s DNS server has been restored. May take a while to propagate, but not long.
<phoe>
billstclair: thanks!
<billstclair>
I didn’t do it, but was in on the discussion about the fix.
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<Xach>
Hmmmm! I am experimenting with read-only source directories for quicklisp builds. One of the first obvious failures is cl-unicode, which wants to write generated files into its source directory to proceed with building.
<phoe>
Xach: is it just files and not directories?
<Xach>
I wonder what could be done to be compatible with a read-only source directory. Putting it in the fasl directory doesn't feel quite right - it's not machine- or implementation-dependent.
<Xach>
phoe: in that case it is files
<phoe>
it could use UIOP:WITH-TEMPORARY-FILE
<phoe>
file or files are okay, UIOP provides no way of creating temporary dirs
<Xach>
The general idea is that some .lisp files are created by interpreting unicode data files. the lisp files are used as part of the rest of the build.
<Xach>
It is not really a temporary file issue.
<phoe>
Oooh. I see.
<Xach>
The data files ship with the repo. I wonder if the generated lisp files could be made part of a release.
<Xach>
I wonder if there will be too many other problems to bother with read-only source directories.
<phoe>
Would probably be much cleaner to generate them freshly on each compilation, and that's what is going on now.
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<Xach>
How is it "clean" to dirty up a directory with generated files? It is completely impure and unhygienic too.
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<jackdaniel>
Xach: McCLIM repository address has changed to https://github.com/mcclim/mcclim (the old one has a redirection thanks transfer ownership github system, so nothing should break)
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<Xach>
jackdaniel: thanks
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<beach>
jackdaniel: Is there no distinction between upper and lower case?
<phoe>
beach: not on github. this repo address works.
<beach>
Great!
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<phoe>
Xach: I kind of wish it actually generated the Lisp files in some temporary locations, then compiled these temporary files, then included the resulting FASLs in the compilation output.
<phoe>
That is how it could be solved.
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<Xach>
phoe: that is an interesting option
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<phoe>
Xach: the only sane one that I see if the sources are meant to remain read-only
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<phoe>
Since ASDF has access to UIOP, it can use its WITH-TEMPORARY-FILE macro as a part of the system's build.
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<didi>
So TIL SBCL doesn't do tail-recursion optimization with (optimize (speed 0)).
<didi>
Or at least is what I inferred.
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<beach>
There are combinations of values of OPTIMIZE qualities for which SBCL does not do tail-call merging, yes, but I don't know the exact combinations.
<didi>
beach: oic
<beach>
What are you trying to accomplish?
<Bike>
high debug turns it off too, which is in the manual
<Bike>
but i don't know exact combos
<didi>
Bike: Ah, maybe it was it. I have (debug 3), but (optimize speed) turned it on.
<didi>
beach: Nothing in particular. Just spelunking.
<sjl>
Huh, yeah, (speed 3) (debug 3) does seem to enable lco
<sjl>
which is not what the manual describes
<sjl>
probably a bug in the manual
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<ecraven>
how does swank intercept a condition in one thread and handle it in the other thread, that communicates with SLIME? doesn't sldb run in the context of the thread where the condition was raised?
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<phoe>
I think the condition is passed on to the REPL thread
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<phoe>
and I think the original thread blocks until SLDB returns control to the offended thread, at which point the selected restart takes effect in that thread
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<light2yellow>
why setq is a special operator while defvar is not?
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<light2yellow>
if done correctly, one has to defvar a variable before passing it to setq
<light2yellow>
so, it is as essential as setq
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<phoe>
light2yellow: setq is a special operator so implementations do not have to write macroexpansions for it but can rather implement it as a primitive
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<light2yellow>
I didn't understand
<light2yellow>
anyway, is it possible to define and set a variable in one expression?
<phoe>
(defvar *foo* 42)
<phoe>
(defparameter *bar* 420)
<light2yellow>
ah, okay
<light2yellow>
thanks
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<pierpal>
if SETQ was not a special operator, what else could have been?
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<beach>
light2yellow: The distinction between macros and special operators is a bit blurred, so don't think too hard about it.
<phoe>
actually an implementation is permitted to implement a specop as a macro
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<beach>
An implementation is allowed to provide a special operator using a macro.
<beach>
And vice versa.
<phoe>
so (SETQ FOO BAR) could theoretically expand into (INTERNAL::%SOME-SORTA-PRIVATE-SETQ 'FOO BAR :ANSWER 42) or some other crazy internal stuff
<phoe>
as long as the semantics are preserved.
<beach>
That would not be possible.
<pierpal>
but a macro for SETQ could only expand to another special op
<phoe>
pierpal: yes, but that specop needs not to be a standard one.
<beach>
phoe: It would not work for lexical variables.
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<phoe>
beach: yep, that was just an example from me.
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<pierpal>
there's no non-specia-op way to accomplish SETQ
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<phoe>
yep
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<Bike>
it makes some sense to have "%setq" be a special operator that only mutates one, lexical binding, and then have setq expand into a few of those, or setfs, or sets
<beach>
Oh, good point.
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<pierpal>
good point
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<jeosol>
morning
<Xach>
phoe: for what it's worth, I am going to tinker with aufs to get read-only sources but with local read-write.
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<jeosol>
how do you guys package CL code for easy deployment on a remote machine (AWS). I'll like to pack resources (e.g., .sbclrc, code directories, data directories) to remote machine.
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<phoe>
Xach: I see.
<jeosol>
by package above, I didn't mean CL packages, but more like how to gather dependencies up
<phoe>
jeosol: usually we create binaries for easy deployment
<Xach>
phoe: my bigger goal is to be able to run multiple parallel test builds from a single shared set of project sources.
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<Xach>
I don't want one build to clobber sources in another.
<jeosol>
phoe: thanks.
<phoe>
Xach: yes, I see.
<jackdaniel>
jeosol: ql:bundle-systems for source code, clon for the binary build, proper systemd definitions for start. if you want to recreate your home directory on aws, why not tar it?
<jeosol>
So other project requirements like data directory (large files) are copied separately
<jeosol>
thanks jackdaniel
<jeosol>
i recently copied my setup to another linux box close to me, it was a pain. I need to copy the package simlinks, data directories, repo, etc.
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<fourier>
I just copy lisp implementation config files and my lisp sources directory. Then download quicklisp.lisp, load it and install; then just do ql:quickload for my local packages and everything is downloaded and installed
<fourier>
did it couple of times recently, no problems at all (the only problem is that I always forget to do ql:quickload "prove-asdf" before ql'ing my packages which use prove
<jackdaniel>
fourier: did you get my reply? regarding osicat
<jeosol>
fourier: you do this manually each time or setup is automated
<fourier>
ah no jackdaniel , cant see anything in my mailbox
<fourier>
jeosol: ql downloads all necessary dependencies, its it purpose
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<jeosol>
I didn't mean ql, i meant the other related actions
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<fourier>
ah no its manually. but it is like 5 minutes total
<jackdaniel>
check in spam maybe?
<jackdaniel>
google stopped to like my servers, I think they try to force me to use gmail
<jeosol>
For my case, all my code is in one giant repo. Moving is not much of an issue. I have other dependencies, e.g., data directories (contain data for the application and could be large), some others e.g., wine to run a windows exe on linux, ...
<jeosol>
But I will look to the options suggested by jackdaniel and phoe
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<fourier>
jackdaniel: aah I see it in the spam folder, yes thanks for the reply!
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<jackdaniel>
so, everybody, if I didn't respond to some message, blame the big brother
<jackdaniel>
;-)
<fourier>
jeosol: my code is from multiple github and not only repos and in something like "Sources/lisp" directory, so I just archive the whole directory together and move to the next PC. same I do with the ".emacs.d" folder
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<jeosol>
fourier: Thanks. I do use external libraries, it's just that the project I am working on, I trying to keep everything else (apart from application data) in the same repo.
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<ecraven>
phoe: thanks for the swank answer ;)
<phoe>
ecraven: no problem
<jeosol>
I need to look into this asp, to package code to remote machine -- had another power issue a while ago and had to restart my runs.
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<jeosol>
anyone running math/computational problems with random numbers where they save state and restart?
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<jeosol>
apologies for my use of "save state" and "restart". These are not in the usual CL context. By "save state" I mean save information about the random number generator and by "restart" I mean restart the run again but now using the info from the random number generator
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<phoe>
oh, no problem
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<phoe>
if you are using the Lisp RNG, then simply save *RANDOM-STATE* somehow, perhaps to a file
<phoe>
and when you boot it back up, read the value from the file, setf it, and go on
<_death>
there's no standard way to save it, but implementations sometimes provide a way..
<rme>
You can always print *random-state* to a file and read it back in. The format of *random-state* is implementation-dependent, but you can always print and read it.
<rme>
(Within the same implementation, I mean)
<_death>
in sbcl's case, even if it didn't provide a way, you'd still be able to reconstruct the state ("clone" it) since it's not a cryptographic rng
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<jeosol>
rme: yes, i save random-state to a file and read back in
<jeosol>
that is the approach I use so far
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<phoe>
rme: not if it's an unreadable object
<jeosol>
I only run on sbcl and so far, I am able to reproduce the random number sequence
<phoe>
jeosol: do you initialize your RNG when you start SBCL up?
<rme>
I am pretty sure that the spec requires that you be able to print and read *random-state*.
<jeosol>
when I start, I call make-random-state, save that info somewhere. If I need to continue to run, I read back that info
<_death>
ugly but works
<rme>
For instance, in ccl, the default random-state object is #.(INITIALIZE-MRG31K3P-STATE 314159 42 1776 271828 6021023 1066)
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<jeosol>
_death: do you mean my approach is ugly?
<phoe>
rme: good enough, that's readable.
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<_death>
jeosol: no, my code is ;)
<rme>
jeosol: the random state object gets modified every time you call random. the point of saving and restoring it is so that you can run your computation multiple times using the same sequence of (pseudo-) random values.
<jeosol>
_death: ok
<jeosol>
rme: yes, that is my objective
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<jeosol>
they way my application works is this (simplified). I get a random number, do some calculations. Let's call this one iteration. I repeat this again for more iterations
<jeosol>
somewhere along the line (I may have power failure like today), I want to be able to pick up from where I stop, or sometimes just continue if I don't have convergence.
<jeosol>
So the reason is to continue the search trend I had before the disruption or just continue in the case of extension
<jeosol>
extending the run works fine, but with power failure, some required files for rerun where not written. I am currently working on this part ...
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<jeosol>
thanks guys. I checked the clhs link above and my application uses the same logic
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<rme>
Beware that *random-state* might be thread-local (it is on ccl). I have no idea if that applies to your situation.
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<phoe>
welp, multiple threads might be modifying the random state at the same time, too. that might be dangerous.
<jeosol>
rme: that is an important info
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<jeosol>
I run multiple threads for evaluation but I the generation of solutions is non-threaded
<jeosol>
I have to check to make sure things kosher
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<jeosol>
I am sure this has been said enough. This place is like a hive of connected brains. Problems getting resolved quickly and also, you are getting multiple ideas and gotchas. What's there not to love
<jeosol>
I am singing to the choir, but with suggestions here over last few weeks, my code is more stable
<fourier>
jeosol: why dont you just precompute a series of number and run on it until you get some stable results?
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<jeosol>
fourier: I actually, simplified my explanation above.
<fourier>
I see
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<jeosol>
I am running an optimization problem with > 1000 variables per solution and like 30 solutions per iteration.
<jeosol>
That is around 30,000 random numbers I will need for one iteration
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<jeosol>
Sometimes, I can run for 50 iterations.
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<jeosol>
So I just live with that approach for now. As per stability, for small problems (not expensive computationally), I perform multiple runs and average the results.
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<jeosol>
with SBCL, the code is pretty fast the bottleneck is elsewhere. My current pain is instrumenting code for re-runs
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<ecraven>
is there a way to print a custom "banner" in SLIME from the swank? it just says '; SLIME 2.20', but nothing about the actually connected lisp (only in the buffer name, but I'd love to see the actual lisp somewhere up there on connecting)
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<phoe>
ecraven: the actual lisp implementation is in the buffer name
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<sea>
Is there a way to tell lisp that a particular function always returns the same value, and can be compiled away?
<ecraven>
phoe: yea, but I'd love to see it somewhere up top too. I guess I'll have to add some :write-string somewhere to just show it that way
<phoe>
what do you mean, always returns the same value?
<phoe>
something like (defun foo () 42)?
<sea>
(defun bar (x) (+ x (foo))). How can I make it evaluate that foo once, and store 42 in bar instead?
<phoe>
sea: you can't.
<phoe>
FOO can be redefined at any moment.
<phoe>
unless you (declaim (inline foo)), that is. then FOO may get inlined.
<fourier>
you can try inline it (declaim (inline fun))
<phoe>
and BAR will become (defun bar (x) (+ x 42)).
<fourier>
phoe beat me in this
<phoe>
fourier: high five
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<sea>
Hrm not sure how this would work in the case where foo is a macro
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<sea>
I have a macro that compiles code to lisp, and I have a function I'm defining with one of those macros in it. I realized that every time I run the function, it re-compiles the code in it for no reason, and I wanted to avoid that
<phoe>
sea: huh?
<phoe>
macros are always "inline"
<fourier>
macro expanded in compile time anyway
<phoe>
since they literally expand into the code that they are defined to expand into
<phoe>
sea: do you have the code and can show it to us?
<sea>
Yeah I'll simplify it for you one sec
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<sea>
huh, you're right, it macro-expands when the function is defined..
<phoe>
sea: show me the code
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<ealfonso>
how can I avoid an undefined variable warning when using (cffi:defcvar ("my_var" my-var) :int) and then referring to my-var?
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<Bike>
i think that shouldn't happen. how do you use it?
<phoe>
but what Bike said, your code is pretty inefficient
<pierpa>
sea: maybe you can do the computation at read time? (defun foo (x) #.(compute-something x))
<Bike>
it's among the least efficient ways to compute (0 1 1) i can think of
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<sea>
That's just the example code. I wanted something slow to take up time, so I could figure out if the macro was being run at compile-time or run-time
<Bike>
mostly because i have no head for busy beavers
<Bike>
okay, well, if you compile your code the macro will be expanded at compile time.
<Bike>
if you just evaluate it it could go either way, but in most implementations now it'll still be expanded just the once.
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<sea>
Hrm, it's still slightly slower than it should be. I took the macro bit out altogether and put it as a global variable it can reference
<Bike>
i think sbcl will compile foo into justsomething that returns a constant
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<Bike>
based on the disassembly, it does indeed
<sea>
Maybe it's down to how I write my macros? Is there a better way to do this: (defmacro foo (x) (list 'quote (f x))) ?
<phoe>
sea: yes. Read about backquote notation.
<Bike>
but that won't affect speed
<phoe>
(defmacro foo (x) `(,(f x)))
<Bike>
you're not really going to get faster than immediately returning a constant
<sea>
That was just the example
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<Bike>
how the macro is written isn't going to affect runtime speed anyway
<Bike>
what it expands into might
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<ealfonso>
any idea why something simple like this causes my sbcl instance to run out of memory and crash when it works fine in C: (cffi:with-foreign-object (g :pointer) (cffi:foreign-funcall "my_alloc_new_very_small_struct" :pointer))
<Bike>
er, is the pointer not being used
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<oleo>
an unassigned pointer ?
<ealfonso>
Bike it was probably a user-error
<ealfonso>
Bike I was calling a binary function with zero args, so there was probably uninitialized data causing a huge malloc
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<Bike>
i see.
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<Xach>
rme: Sorry to bug you, but ccl.clozure.com is not working for me - what does :SHARED mean in make-hash-table?
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<Xach>
rme: Trying to adapt some sbcl code which uses `:synchronized t` to mean "concurrent writers are safe", so that's my real question - how to get safe concurrent writers for ccl hash tables.
<rme>
ccl hash tables for safe for concurrent writers by default
<rme>
are safe, I mean
<Xach>
ok, thanks.
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<rme>
They use a lock-free algorithm which is good for typical access, but slower for rehashing or growing the table.
<pierpa>
yeah, I have to define it myself every time!
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<jasom>
Any hints for a fully-remote slime debug; I can connect to slime remotely and use tramp for opening the remote files, but do I need to do anything to get them all to play nicely together?
<jasom>
also if someone has a script for setting up a slime-over-ssh tunnel easily that would save me some time
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<Josh_2>
can't you remote connect with emacs?
<scymtym>
jasom: the slime-tramp contrib seems to be intended for that use case
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