<drmeister>
The CLHS says "If displaced-to is non-nil, make-array will create a displaced array and displaced-to is the target of that displaced array. In that case, the consequences are undefined if the actual array element type of displaced-to is not type equivalent to the actual array element type of the array being created. "
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<drmeister>
I'd like to implement something where I can create displaced arrays of element type byte8 into other arrays.
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<drmeister>
This is to write out the memory contents of a particular array - like write out the bytes of a specialized array of floats.
<drmeister>
How bad of an idea is that?
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<drmeister>
Bike: I need to have an array of byte8 to pass to the pzmq library - I can't control how they are written out.
<drmeister>
Currently I get an: (ERROR "Cannot displace the array, because the element types don't match") if I try it.
<drmeister>
But I'm going to bypass that for displaced arrays of :element-type 'ext:byte8
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<Bike>
i'd just make a new array
<Bike>
maybe with an expedited copying function
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<drmeister>
I could do that as well and use memcpy.
<drmeister>
It just seemed unnecessary to copy the memory.
<drmeister>
This is for cl-jupyter-widgets - we can ship blocks of floats to the front end.
<phoe>
drmeister: since the consequences are undefined, you can define them yourself. In particular, you can do something that in C would be more or less char** array_of_bytes = ...; float** array_of_floats = (float**)array_of_bytes; which is just casting.
<phoe>
BUT
<edgar-rft>
butt?
<phoe>
I also imagine that it would be sane to keep an error message in that case, because Lisp is strongly typed compared to C, and I think that most cases where one would want to displace array of elt-type A to array of elt-type B are simple mistakes and not voluntary actions.
<phoe>
Now that I think of it, I'd add a new keyword arg to MAKE-ARRAY, something like :CASTING-DISPLACE-TO that works like :DISPLACE-TO except it does just what you describe on the low-level.
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<Chream_>
TMA: was a bit harsh or? i guess someone here in #lisp would know where an emacs tutorial is?
<iqubic>
Chream_: C-u C-h t
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<phoe>
Lisp has corrupted my speech way too much
<phoe>
When I saw the symbol DEFINITION I started wondering what the hell an INITION is.
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<mfiano>
0can MOP give us the full inheritance tree for an instance?
<Shinmera>
note that in CLOS it's not a tree, but a graph.
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<phoe>
Hey beach
<beach>
Chream_: Sure, but there are a lot of very knowledgeable people in #lisp, so if we were allowed to discuss any topic that someone might know, then this channel would drown in off-topic discussions.
<SAL9000>
phoe: Yeah, I'm aware. IRC is sometimes more convenient for real time conversations though, thus my question
<Shinmera>
There's a WhatsApp group this year, I guess.
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<Shinmera>
And you can reach didier on twitter, which may or may not be faster in case of problems.
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<TMA>
Chream_: sure. those probably frequent #emacs too. I am still of the opinion, that iqubic would be better off asking there, probabilistically speaking -- there is a greater proportion of those willing to discuss things emacs there than it is here. I might have worded it too terse. It looks like iqubic was helped there faster anyway.
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<beach>
Good afternoon everyone!
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<beach>
I am working on WSCL and I could use some help.
<phoe>
What's up?
<beach>
For now, I have created a directory LaTeX, and I have started working on chapter 2.
<beach>
I need to make copies of the dpANS files rather than automatically process them
<beach>
because I need to modify those files later.
<beach>
So what I do for now is to gradually turn those files into standard LaTeX files.
<beach>
It is a somewhat labor-intensive task, so if anyone feels like helping out, that would be great.
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<beach>
What I have decided to do is to modify the text in place, and then refer to some appendix for the original text whenever I decide to update some text in the spirit of WSCL.
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<phoe>
I see.
<beach>
phoe: It is probably similar to what you had to do with CLUS.
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<phoe>
beach: Yep, I see, except you're creating a modification of the standard where I'm creating a clarification of it.
<beach>
Sure. I just meant that the work involves similar manipulations.
<beach>
Some TeX macro calls, like beginSection etc. I just replace by standard LaTeX macro calls.
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<beach>
Some others, like semantic markup things like newterm, I define a macro for and don't modify the original.
<phoe>
Yep, I see.
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<beach>
I guess I should write a bunch of "issues" to help people decide what to do.
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<makomo>
good afternoon :-)
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<blurgh>
makomo: It's 4:38 AM here in the Bay Area :P
<phoe>
beach: yep, fire up the issues on GitHub that can be picked up by other people if they want to.
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<beach>
blurgh: Please, we don't need to know what time it is in every time zone in the world.
<makomo>
blurgh: heh, can't take everything into account :D
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<beach>
phoe: Anyway, it's a nice incremental project.
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<phoe>
beach: yep, I see.
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<beach>
phoe: When do you leave for ELS?
<phoe>
beach: I am packing up now, will fly tomorrow.
<beach>
OK. And you go directly from Malaga airport to Marbella?
<phoe>
Will be in Malaga at 18:00 my time, it'll take me a little bit longer to go to Marbella.
<phoe>
Yes.
<phoe>
Where are you currently?
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<beach>
IBIS Malaga center city.
<beach>
"Centro Ciudad"
<beach>
phoe: Will you come alone?
* beach
noticed the "I".
<phoe>
beach: absolutely not. It seems that p_l and antoszka are boarding the same plane.
<beach>
Heh, OK.
<p_l>
We are going to have 4 person contingent, it seems
<beach>
Nice.
<p_l>
Plus jackdaniel flying another route
<beach>
Lots of Polacks this time. That's great.
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<phoe>
beach: is it possible that we'll leave for Marbella together from Malaga?
<beach>
Me and my wife will take a taxi. Age and budget demands it. :)
<phoe>
I see! We might see each other in Marbella, then.
<beach>
Sure. We'll be there around 14:00 or so. Hotel Villa Marbella. Show up for a beer if you like.
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<p_l>
We are expected 1800 in Malaga (landing time)
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<beach>
OK, so maybe dinner then.
<p_l>
Flight LH1150
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<phoe>
So we'll end up in Marbella later. I still don't know what the bus travel is from Malaga to Marbella.
<beach>
There are direct buses from Malaga airport to Marbella.
<beach>
Frequent too.
<beach>
Or, a taxi is around 80€.
<beach>
Split by 3 people is not too bad.
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<antoszka>
phoe: p_l, antoszka and yet another guy from warsaw
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<phoe>
Good! That's five of us, counting jackdaniel as well.
<siraben>
Is Practical Common Lisp a good place to start learning Common Lisp?
<phoe>
siraben: yes, though keep in mind that it's 1300 pages long.
<White_Flame>
"Lisp" is the name of a family of languages which includes Scheme, but "LISP" is also the name of the first implementation, and languages whcih derived from it and recombined into "Common Lisp" are still basically known as "Lisp" when no other modifier is involved
<siraben>
What
<siraben>
R5RS is 50 pages long!
<Shinmera>
Well Common Lisp is big.
<siraben>
Wow so it's Lisp on steroids
<phoe>
siraben: welcome to Common Lisp
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<random-nick>
you also can't do anything useful with just R5RS
<White_Flame>
Scheme is an exercise in language minimalism
<phoe>
don't worry though, a lot of that is just formal speech.
<siraben>
random-nick: That's what R7RS tried to solve, but ended up making it bloaty
<siraben>
Scheme is very nice to work with to explore conceptual things, I suppose.
<White_Flame>
(Scheme _was_ an exercise in language minimalism ;) )
<siraben>
Makes a good teaching language too
<random-nick>
siraben: wasn't it R6RS that is considered bloated?
<siraben>
I've already ordered Practical Common Lisp, should arrive in a couple days. I like how it very, well, practical and that Lisp isn't just for cool meta-circular evaluators :)
<phoe>
but note that it's a standard, not a manual.
<siraben>
Was the Common Lisp standard formally proved correct?
<phoe>
define "prove correct"
<random-nick>
how can a standard be incorrect?
<siraben>
phoe: You weren't kidding about the size
<siraben>
Undefined behavior
<Shinmera>
A standard is the definition of correctness!
<phoe>
siraben: the standard explicitly says what kind of behavior it treats as undefined
<siraben>
Right, but are the implementations correct?
<phoe>
siraben: there's a test suite that tests conformance
<Shinmera>
No, but they're correct for the overwhelming majority of practical purposes.
<makomo>
hm, it seems cl-ppcre doesn't support the \h backslash sequence :^(
<Shinmera>
Proving a CL implementation correct is infeasible
<phoe>
also, no sane Common Lisp implementation is 100% conformant with the standard
<siraben>
Why not?
<Shinmera>
Because it's too big
<phoe>
makomo: are you sure that you are using "\\h" and not "\h" in strings?
<phoe>
Shinmera: no
<Shinmera>
Proofs are not feasible for large systems.
<siraben>
Lol what about the Javascript spec?
<makomo>
phoe: yup
<phoe>
because we have Unicode
<phoe>
and Unicode contradicts the Lisp spec
<makomo>
\h is supposed to include both the "classical" horizontal whitespace and some unicode stuff like no-break space, etc.
<siraben>
What can I expect to be able to understand well after reading through Practical Common Lisp?
<Shinmera>
That depends entirely on you
<phoe>
in 100% conformant ANSI CL, we have a perfect bijective mapping between lowercase characters and uppercase characters; Unicode does not implement anything like that.
<makomo>
i mean, i doubt i'll have documents with such horizontal space, but having it for completeness would be nice
<phoe>
siraben: reading, no idea; actually following through with the exercises, you'll grasp the basics of CL
<makomo>
s/horizontal space/weird characters/
<Bike>
are any of the javascript implementations verified
<siraben>
What are good resources for understanding how to prove programs?
<siraben>
Always seems like wizardry to me
<Bike>
learn coq, probably
<Shinmera>
siraben: Learning lots of really tedious and boring maths
<siraben>
So I'll just take it on faith
<siraben>
What about PAIP?
<siraben>
Reminds me of SICP
<smokeink>
PAIP is an awesome book
<siraben>
Did you read the entire thing?
<siraben>
Looks cool from the table of contents
<smokeink>
I'm currently reading the last 2 chapters, about making interpretors and compilers in common lisp
<smokeink>
so far I've only read the first few chapters, now I'm reading the last few chapters
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<smokeink>
cuz I don't need to understand the Eliza talking bot right now , but I want to understand how this thing works: http://lisperator.net/slip/ , it seems to be based on PAIP
<siraben>
Eliza is cool
<siraben>
in Emacs, M-x doctor
<Bike>
paip is mainly about historical AI. it has some basic stuff about interpreting and compiling lisp, but you'd need to know more t han that for an actual implementation
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<smokeink>
what other books do you guys recommend , for understanding how to make a lisp ? Lisp in Small Pieces ?
<drunk_foxx[m]>
I've started PAIP and On Lisp in parallel after Land of Lisp, seems like a great flavor to me. There are also quite great excercises in the book so that you don't just read and repeat
<drunk_foxx[m]>
Lisp in Small Pieces focuses mainly on Scheme, afaik
<Bike>
lisp in small pieces is pretty good.
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<drunk_foxx[m]>
> Eliza is cool
<drunk_foxx[m]>
It's especially funny to compare it to some of the modern bots, and understand that actually not much progress has been made since those days
<smokeink>
can SBCL easily be ported to WebAssembly (which funny enough, is based on S-Expressions) ? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEYtwmI7bDg ( WebAssembly hello world )
<Bike>
porting probably isn't easy
<Bike>
and lisp has a pretty big runtime, so in a browser might not go well
<phoe>
Bike: d'oh
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<smokeink>
webassembly seems to run natively
<Bike>
?
<phoe>
some contemporary JS websites have much, much bigger runtimes
<phoe>
without having any CL. (;
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<p_l>
WebAssembly could be generated from SBCL's compiler, but AFAIK there were some issues in making it a lisp friendly place
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<p_l>
You can, of course, do the Turing tarpit tango, but that might not be a best idea
<smokeink>
what issues are there
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<p_l>
I don't remember everything, but I seem to recall some of type checking and function call semantics were iffy?
<Bike>
i feel like running your own gc is probably problematic
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<p_l>
That said, you could probably port a CL implementation to wasm, maybe not necessarily SBCL
<siraben>
drunk_foxx[m]: Why has work on Eliza-like assistants gone dark after the 1990s?
<Bike>
well
<Bike>
eliza sucks
<Bike>
so there's that
<siraben>
What's better?
<siraben>
Still better than say, Siri
<p_l>
siraben: it has not, really. There was general slump in symbolic AI
<Bike>
i really don't think eliza is better than siri
<siraben>
Granted there's the voice recognition, but NLP is still bad
<p_l>
And Eliza's only task was to fool a human
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<p_l>
Not to actually understand anything
<siraben>
Siri feels like it's parsing phrases with regex
<Bike>
it's not, but if it was, that would make it as good as eliza
<p_l>
Haven't really used Siri, but heard rumours of internal struggle regarding priorities
<siraben>
What's the state of the art in NLP?
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<siraben>
Siri is really bad, any deviation from a specific phrasing makes it say "Sorry, I don't understand" or other canned responses
<siraben>
phrasing or set of phrases*
<Bike>
do you know how eliza works?
<siraben>
It's a pattern matcher, right?
<Bike>
basically regexes, yes
<siraben>
I read the source of doctor.el for Emacs
<drunk_foxx[m]>
> drunk\_foxx[m]: Why has work on Eliza-like assistants gone dark after the 1990s?
<nirved>
back at the end 90s i came to the conclusion that human mind state can be represented in 50-70 dimensions (each dimension is a duality), haven't checked if this is correct though
<nirved>
also dimensions might differ between individuals
<drunk_foxx[m]>
A note about voice recognition: it was there almost 40 years ago with the use of Symbolics Lisp Machines. Now think about how much progress has been made since then (not much imo)
<drunk_foxx[m]>
Not only voice recognition there, though
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<smokeink>
p_l: well does x86 assembly offer any special support for multiple-return-values ?
<siraben>
drunk_foxx[m]: Lisp in Small Pieces is pretty pricey
<drunk_foxx[m]>
Well you can download it as a pdf/djvu file if you are okay with that
<Bike>
x64 sysv abi has two return registers, yeah? so there's that
<siraben>
Isn't that illegal?
<Bike>
pirating books is illegal, yes
<siraben>
There are so many Lisp books to read...
<siraben>
+ Scheme
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<phoe>
siraben: then start with PCL
<phoe>
it's a very sane choice for learning Lisp
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<drunk_foxx[m]>
I personally tried PCL after Land of Lisp (I had no serious prior experience in any programming language), and I didn't like the way of telling (I think Peter is oversimplifying in some places)
<drunk_foxx[m]>
For some practical stuff, I think that Common Lisp Recipes by Ed Weitz is great
<siraben>
I'm not even fully done with SICP, just the lectures and some chapters, still to finish the compiler, logic programming section.
<drunk_foxx[m]>
And it is significantly more recent
<siraben>
Not knowing Scheme at all from the start it still was very enlightening
<siraben>
phoe: Right I'll get to PCL
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<phoe>
drunk_foxx[m]: except the Book of Edi won't give you the basics of the language.
<phoe>
Once you have the basics, Book of Edi is wonderful.
<siraben>
One can do so much with Scheme, can't imagine the power of Common Lisp and its libraries
<phoe>
There's no real mythical power here
<phoe>
Lisp is just another language for programming the von Neumann machine.
<phoe>
Which is equivalent to Turing machine.
<siraben>
Of course, but writing in languages like Lisp saves a lot of time
<phoe>
It's just that it allows programming in a more fun, shorter, faster way.
<siraben>
Right
<drunk_foxx[m]>
> I'm not even fully done with SICP, just the lectures and some chapters, still to finish the compiler, logic programming section.
<drunk_foxx[m]>
I personally didn't have time to try it yet, but looking forward to
<smokeink>
nice
<siraben>
Good ways to practice using Common Lisp after a book?
<siraben>
Just use it for everything?
<drunk_foxx[m]>
Solve some issues for useful libraries, probably
<phoe>
siraben: there's no better way to learn any language than using it
<drunk_foxx[m]>
Or try the bounties that are published for projects like McCLIM
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<phoe>
try writing some stuff of your own, use other people's libraries, find shortcomings and bugs in these libraries, dive into these libraries, start fixing things in them and submitting PRs
<phoe>
that way you'll end up learning the language, the ecosystem, the community at once.
<siraben>
Similar to learning Emacs Lisp I suppose, one can contribute to Emacs
<drunk_foxx[m]>
I was talking about something like that:
<phoe>
siraben: not really to emacs, to its ecosystem rather
<phoe>
emacs itself is a core that's rather tightly guarded by GNU and contributing to it is hard.
<shrdlu68>
Surprised those bounties are still around.
<phoe>
there's a lot of elisp packages everywhere which are very easily modifiable though.
<phoe>
shrdlu68: things that need to be done don't disappear magically on their own, unless someone does them
<shrdlu68>
Surprised nobody has claimed those bounties.
<shrdlu68>
Looked at them a while back, but then I got busy.
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<drunk_foxx[m]>
McCLIM lacks attention, sadly
<shrdlu68>
Hmm, looks like I've found something to do.
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<ebrasca>
Hi
<shrdlu68>
Hi ebrasca
<jjkola>
hi
<phoe>
hey hi
<phoe>
shrdlu68: go grab them, then!
<ebrasca>
phoe: Are you planing some meting?
<phoe>
ebrasca: yes, there's a pretty huge meeting in Spain on Monday.
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<shrdlu68>
phoe: ELS?
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<ebrasca>
phoe: I can't go to spain :(
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<drunk_foxx[m]>
Well, at least the lectures will be available after
<drunk_foxx[m]>
Like the ones from past symposiums
<phoe>
ebrasca: welp. I don't plan any meeting in Poland though.
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<siraben>
phoe: I'm planning to contribute to Emacs Calc, a default package that isn't well documented and needs a better integration algorithm
<siraben>
But for core C code and core Emacs Lisp functions, I can see why they are guarding it closely.
<phoe>
siraben: you're free to fork Emacs and modify it on your own, but expect a lot of work required to pull your changes back into the root codebase.
<siraben>
Lol even just documentation strings?
<siraben>
Oof
<phoe>
Well, docstrings could be much easier to work with.
<phoe>
They're text, not code.
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<siraben>
And adding relatively benign functions such as the powerset, more set operations, should be all right, but I have yet to submit a patch request
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<phoe>
siraben: powerset? you mean written in C or in elisp?
<phoe>
If it's C, I have no idea if emacs needs such functions; if it's elisp, they'll most likely ask you to create a package submittable to one of Emacs package repositories.
<phoe>
Lisp, including Elisp, is way more extensible by its users than C.
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<pjb>
Well, more precisely (turing equivalence and all that), the difference is that lisp is extensible at a smaller level, using small tools provided by the language itself, in the same program where the extension is used, while in C, extensions have to be made by way of pre-processors, that requires in general to implement a whole C parser, and a whole new program of the size of a compiler.
<pjb>
C is still extensible by its users (and is being and has been extended in several occasions: Objective-C, C++, PRO*C, etc).
<pjb>
But in lisp, it's nicer and nibbler.
<pjb>
And then, when you see the difficulties C programmers have with the simple abstraction tool that functions are…
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<siraben>
phoe: Elisp
<siraben>
phoe: to Emacs Calc
<siraben>
They already have some set functions like intersection, disjoint, union, so powerset can't hurt
<phoe>
Ooh, that. I see.
<siraben>
And I can't believe functions like `calc-prime-test' are still without documentation
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<random-nick>
are format strings turing complete?
<Shinmera>
There's ~/, so yes
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<phoe>
random-nick: ~/ invokes arbitrary Lisp code. without ~/, format is not turing complete.
<phoe>
But you have all of Lisp available when you do macroexpansion, just like during runtime, compile-time, read-time.
<siraben>
Of course
<phoe>
oh, SRS. It's Turing complete, but it doesn't have anything to do with Lisp macros, I think.
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<pjb>
phoe: I wouldn't be so sure. If you write (let ((string (make-array +infinite-size+ :element-type 'character))) (format string "…" string)), perhaps something can be done?
<phoe>
but if you want an explicit coercion to a boolean, then use (if foo 't 'nil)
<makomo>
i guess
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<makomo>
thought there might be a "more idiomatic" way
<makomo>
but i think i agree with what you said
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<Shinmera>
makomo: No, the point of explicitly returning NIL/T. If you document that it's a boolean, it's fine to return generalised booleans.
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<phoe>
^
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<makomo>
ah, hmm, well ok
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<Shinmera>
I'm much more in the camp of "conciseness" than "explicitness" myself, but it's just different ideals.
<Shinmera>
So if you want to return explicit booleans sure. Just better be consistent about it.
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<impaktor>
Hi!
<impaktor>
<impaktor>
common lisp's GSLL-call.
<impaktor>
Slightly shameful question/offer, but: I have an article that's about to be published in Scientific Reports (accepted, I just got the proof back for final check, called "Fitting a function to time-dependent ensemble averaged data"), and in it I have the sentence "Computer codes are freely available (Python, Octave/matlab, and Lisp)". My intention was to put "Common Lisp", but I got stuck when porting python's numpy method calls to
<impaktor>
I eventually gave up and ported the Python code to Hy Lisp, because I do want my article to mention there's code in "Lisp". If anyone feels up to tinker with it, I have both working python and hy lisp code here: https://github.com/impaktor/wlsice
<impaktor>
If so, I'll put a "code available in Common lisp and Hy Lisp"
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<impaktor>
Anyway, I'm tired of fighting this code, so just thought I'd throw it out as a last check here.
<impaktor>
If not I'll remove the common lisp code from the repo.
<phoe>
impaktor: put it on a branch instead of removing it
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<impaktor>
phoe: yeah, I'll do that at publication time.
<pjb>
makomo: the most direct from the user point of view, and assuming a dumb compiler would be (if b 't 'nil). But (not (null b)) (or (not (not b))) would also be nice if you have a good compiler, eg. a compiler that is able to deal with machine booleans, and who understand what (not (null b)) mean (but then, if it knew, it would also know about (if b 't 'nil)). On different processors, there booleans can be represented differently.
<pierpal>
and you may want to add a comment clarifying that this conversion has only an aesthetical purpose when using the function in the repl. otherwise readers, including you at a later time, will wonder why you did that
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<pjb>
in any case, I would write a functional abstraction. (defun bool (x) (not (not x))) (declaim (inline bool)) (defun foop (x) (bool (some-predicate-foo x)))
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<pfdietz>
I'd prefer if functions that return generalized booleans return T for true. In general, more specific provided behavior for an interface is good, unless there's a significant reason for that not to be the case.
<phoe>
absolutely not my work and I take no credit for it, but I think it would be worthy to quickload it, run it, and do some silly things in the web browser
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<kolb>
phoe: I had to implement tegex in lua, so to parse them I ported maxpc
<phoe>
unless someone has already set up a semi-permanent instance of reddit1.0 somewhere
<phoe>
kolb: wow
<kolb>
Then I compiled regex to maxpc, and only then realized regex needs backtracking:D
<kolb>
So i grafted on backtracking combinators to maxpc
<kolb>
Its a white hot mess of closures
<kolb>
But I think its cheeky and cute
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<kolb>
phoe: +1 for Reddit 1.0, I glanced at the sources and it looked reasonable
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<Shinmera>
kolb: I'll be there in about 15 hours
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<dim>
make it 23h and I'll be there too ;-)
<dim>
it's going to be strange, nice, and fun to meet with all you guys from IRC!
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<phoe>
dim: you'll actually get a proof against the Internet theorem
<phoe>
"there's only three people on the Internet: you, me, and this guy who types really fast"
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<makomo>
phoe: hey that's pretty neat. i saw that the reddit 1.0 code was out but didn't know someone made it work
<pfdietz>
What changes were needed?
<phoe>
makomo: /r/Common_Lisp had it some time ago
<makomo>
i suppose the ELS will be recorded this year too?
<phoe>
pfdietz: some code changes to make it work on non-CMUCL, reconstructing the database schema
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<trocado>
Is it possible to use portacle with OSX 10.6?
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<Shinmera>
No
<Shinmera>
You might be able to compile it yourself
<Shinmera>
but I won't support it.
<trocado>
Shinmera: what's the oldest OSX it runs on?
<Shinmera>
The official releases run on 10.11 as the website states.
<trocado>
Shinmera: thanks!
<Shinmera>
Though actually the current 1.1 release was erroneously built on 10.12 and thus doesn't run on 10.11. There's a 1.1b release though that does run on 10.11: https://github.com/portacle/portacle/releases/tag/1.1b
<Shinmera>
I did build it with travis on 10.10, which works, but 10.9 gives errors from brew about it no longer being supported and I didn't want to care to try and make it work.
<Shinmera>
I don't ship 10.10 because 10.10 breaks on 10.11+, if I remember correctly.
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<Shinmera>
I could ship for each OS X version but for now I'd like to avoid such a nightmare
<Shinmera>
Apple isn't making that easy though
<trocado>
Shinmera: yes, i understand
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<pfdietz>
(scrolls back in log) That unicode's case mapping is not 1-1 doesn't prevent it from working with a comformant Common Lisp, I think. Those beyond-standard characters just aren't treated as having Common Lisp case.
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<frgo>
Shinmera: Are you online? Would like to ask a Q re GLOP.
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<phoe>
Okay. You'll hear from me again when I'm waiting for my plane in Warsaw. Over and out.
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<iqubic>
What is the difference between lexical and dynamic scoping in CL?
<pfdietz>
(bar) ==> 1 if x is not special, (bar) ==> 2 if it is.
<phoe>
lexical scoping example
<iqubic>
pfdietz: That breaks my brain.
<iqubic>
Why does the way x is declared have anything to do with the output of that?
<phoe>
take your time with that concept. (:
<pfdietz>
It affects how the value of X is determined in foo.
<phoe>
it;s not trivial to get it at first.
<pfdietz>
If x is special, it goes and grabs it from (symbol-value 'x) (essentially).
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<iqubic>
I see.
<iqubic>
And if x is not special it gets the value from the scope x is defined in?
<phoe>
yes
<iqubic>
I see.
<phoe>
or rather
<iqubic>
Lisp is weird and odd.
<phoe>
if it is lexical, its value comes from scope.
<pfdietz>
In the lexical case the symbol 'x' goes away entirely, typically, except if the compiler has kept the name around for debugging and such.
<phoe>
if it is dynamic, ot xomes from the last binding on the stack.
<pfdietz>
Think of special variables as global variables that have controlled lifetimes.
<pfdietz>
The binding starts the lifetime, and leaving the binding form ends it.
<pfdietz>
I believe they are also typically thread-local, although that's not in the standard.
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<comborico>
Can't find the answer to this: 9 / 4 . nine is the dividend, four is the divisor, 2 is the quotient, and one is the remainder. But what is it called when you carry the remainder over to as in 2 1/4?
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<theemacsshibe[m]>
That's a complex fraction
<comborico>
It doesn't have a special name in relation to division?
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