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<dmiles>
i was indeed using chance loosely.. What I was trying to do is distinguish chess from a game of perfect information
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<dmiles>
yet most all chess solvers i know about are designed to work based on "perfect information" which is never possibly going to happen
<dmiles>
in fact with all chess gambits if your opponent was playing with the same perfect information they cant win
<dmiles>
i mean the gambit will fail if your opponent actually was making all the perfect counter moves
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<dmiles>
the best case is that your moves have create a multiplex of gambits that at leat one is not detected by your opponent
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<dmiles>
which one will succeed will always be at best a random guess
<dmiles>
not that this makes it a game of chance but you cannot know which gambits your opponent will miss
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<ebrasca>
dmiles: I think you can find some steps with 100% win rate. I don't know if for white or black.
<dmiles>
yes with white i think there are
<dmiles>
but those still i assumed is when both sides play with the same bootstrap
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<dmiles>
if you, ebrasca, are correct then indeed there can be a perfect, non-chanchy, game of chess played
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<dmiles>
also i was wrong about not being perfect information.. it is.. but its a game of incomplete information instead
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<pierpa>
dmiles: but chess*is* the prototypical example of a perfect information game!
<pierpa>
and the point of chess is not hoping the opponenet doesn't see your cunning plans
<pierpa>
(but let's continue in lispcafe, if interested)
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<iqubic>
where's is lispcafe? is that just #lispcafe?
<pierpa>
yes
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<Josh_2>
https://pastebin.com/Ay4Utu8x can someone help me with this macro, I understand why it is saying it is an unknown block but I don't know how to fix it
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<pierpa>
(loop named foo ... (return-from foo ...)) maybe
<z3t0>
Hi, I am trying to learn about programming languages that are fundamentally different from others
<z3t0>
So far I have spent some time hacking in common lisp and now am taking a look at smalltalk
<z3t0>
One of the main features of smalltalk is that everything is accessible and reflective as it is based on a live image
<z3t0>
I have noticed pretty much the same idea in common lisp, or is there something different about how one of these functions in terms of everything being at your fingertips at all times?
<pierpa>
I'd say CL is less reflective than Smalltalk.
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<Josh_2>
So I was just thrown into the ldb, how do I get back to my normal slime session?
<pfdietz_>
Can't?
<Josh_2>
I don't know how
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<theemacsshibe[m]>
I think if you get thrown in, you should go to inferior-lisp, quit ldb and start a new lisp.
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<Josh_2>
Yeh that's what I did
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<Josh_2>
Just caused my pc to crash because I didn't manage to kill a rogue thread on time
<pierpa>
hmmm
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<Josh_2>
Yeh wasn't smart
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<Josh_2>
added a sleep now so it doesn't crash
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<asarch>
Is [1] == (account bank-account) and [2] == amount?
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<Bike>
"account" and "amount" are parameter names. bank-account is a specializer.
<asarch>
Thank you Bike
<asarch>
Thank you very much :-)
* asarch
takes notes...
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<asarch>
Another question: what is a "specializer"? Does it mean, "an instance" or "a super class"?
<Bike>
specializers are either classes or eql specializers.
<Bike>
your method definition is for a method that takes two parameters, and the first parameter is an instance of the class bank-account.
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<asarch>
Thank you
<asarch>
Thank you very much once again Bike :-)
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<carmack>
Hi! Anyone have job where you wirk with clisp?
<carmack>
work*
<phoe>
carmack: CLISP or Common Lisp?
<phoe>
The first is an implementation, the other is a language.
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<carmack>
Common Lisp
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<phoe>
some of us do, yes; I know of at least two companies which are hiring right now
<phoe>
they advertised at the last European Lisp Symposium.
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
<phoe>
beach: good morning!
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<addsub>
I am not sure whether the author cares, but I found a grammatical error in the first chapter of 'gentle intro'
<beach>
What's the error?
<addsub>
one sec
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<addsub>
I lost it, it isn't really important since it doesn't impact the procedure, but sounds ghetto. It's a 'be' that should be an 'are'.
<addsub>
no big deal though.
<beach>
addsub: Are you sure that it is not the subjunctive form?
<carmack>
i read "ghetto" like a "gentoo", lol
<beach>
addsub: As in "I would rather they be fired".
<addsub>
beach: exactly.
<beach>
That's correct.
<addsub>
:/
<addsub>
ok nevermind then.
<beach>
It is not the subjunctive, but I forget the name of the verb form.
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<TMA>
I have seen subjunctive or conjunctive for this form in English
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<beach>
Yes, but Steven Pinker says it is something different. I just can't remember.
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<TMA>
addsub: it is the same form as in "If I were ..." or "If he care"
<phoe>
Sigh
<phoe>
It is impossible to retrieve the value of a class-allocated slot without creating an instance of said class.
<addsub>
I found it. In this case I doubt it's a special verb form.
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<phoe>
I thought that MOP:CLASS-PROTOTYPE would allow me to do this, but: "Whether the instance is initialized is not specified."
<phoe>
Or rather, s/impossible/impossible in a way I hoped to do it/.
<jackdaniel>
everything is impossible in lisp! wait, that doesn't sound right :-)
<phoe>
I'll need to write a class-slot-value or something that fetches the slot metaobject from the class itself.
<addsub>
page 19 'Chapter 1 Functions and Data 7. Second sentence in second line 'It is important that you be able to tell the difference between numbers'
<phoe>
beach: "Whether the instance is initialized is not specified."
<phoe>
Does this mean that class-allocated slots are also not initialized?
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<addsub>
I wish the first chapter had expanded exercises, those look fun.
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<phoe>
beach: I can't yet see the MOP specifying this anywhere.
<beach>
phoe: You use the prototype only for specialization.
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<beach>
The prototype does not contain the slot. The class does.
<phoe>
Hm. Wait a second.
<beach>
phoe: So don't attempt to read any instance-allocated slots.
<phoe>
Does this mean that I can do (slot-value (class-prototype 'foo) 'class-allocated-slot)?
<beach>
yes.
<beach>
That's the typical use for the prototype.
<phoe>
...oh. Oooooh.
<phoe>
Makes sense now. Thanks!
<beach>
Anytime.
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<phoe>
beach: I have one more question that you might be able to answer.
<beach>
Sure, go right ahead.
<phoe>
Why SET-FUNCALLABLE-INSTANCE-FUNCTION is not a (SETF FUNCALLABLE-INSTANCE-FUNCTION)?
<beach>
Oh, I don't know. I have asked myself that as well.
<phoe>
Hmm. Okay.
<beach>
The MOP definitely does not have the same level of standard as the Common Lisp HyperSpec does.
<beach>
... as the authors also admit.
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<LdBeth>
How to translate string to bit array?
<beach>
That depends a lot on how you want it translated.
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<LdBeth>
I want to checksum a password string
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<LdBeth>
So it probably like how the characters represented in a text file
<phoe>
LdBeth: best translate it to a vector of (unsigned-byte 8)s then
<LdBeth>
Yes I get some idea
<phoe>
is your string a hexadecimal string?
<phoe>
or does it contain arbitrary text?
<LdBeth>
Just ASCII texts
<phoe>
use FLEXI-STREAMS:STRING-TO-OCTETS
<phoe>
that will give you a vector of uint8s that you can work on.
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<jackdaniel>
fe[nl]ix: I've updated the semaphore PR yesterday (taken into account your remarks)
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<light2yellow>
why am I getting "value (fact k) is not of type number" ( https://pastebin.com/raw/EhG8tW6R ) ? shouldn't it look at fact and see that it returns number? or I cannot do this because macros don't evaluate at compile time, but have to be compileable?
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<light2yellow>
if I replace (mult2 (fact k)) with (* 2 (fact k)) it works as intended, so I don't undestand why it doesn't work with the macto
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<phoe>
light2yellow: why do you use macrolet?
<phoe>
replace MACROLET with FLET and this code will work.
<phoe>
Also, why do you use INCF? Now both X and Y contain 5.
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<light2yellow>
phoe: because I'm exploring the laguage. also, never mind, I finally figured out what `, , and @ do, so (mult2 (a) `(* 2 ,a)) seems to work
<beach>
But it is not good style to use a macro when a function will do.
<light2yellow>
I know
<light2yellow>
see first sentense
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<beach>
light2yellow: Things don't quite work that way. If you ask for help, you can not demand that people ignore all the style violations in order to answer only the particular issue you are asking for.
<beach>
light2yellow: And there is still the question of the INCF.
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<light2yellow>
beach: not demanding anything, but okay
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<Xof>
_death: at some point you have to say "no-one would ever do that"
<_death>
but we just did ;)
<Xof>
it's my line and I'm sticking to it
<Xach>
no-one ought ever do that
<Bike>
i was doing i forget what in clasp and it started trying to take class prototypes of numeric classes, and that went badly
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<Bike>
it ws something general like trying to get prototypes of classes methods specialized on, for some reason
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<phoe>
woah
<Xof>
next up: I need to write a method combination which uses args-lambda-list, and then redefine it in an interesting way
<phoe>
(mop:class-prototype (find-class 'integer)) on ECL gives me a god object
<phoe>
I am that I am
<Xof>
comments that make me feel this might be a long afternoon:
<Xof>
;;; This baby is a complete mess. I can't believe we put it in this
<Xof>
;;; way. No doubt this is a large part of what drives MLY crazy.
<Bike>
args lambda list is just inoperable on ecl and clasp
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<Bike>
what is MLY? a maintainer?
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<Xof>
probably a developer of PCL back when it was at Xerox
<splittist>
Molly Miller?
<Xof>
the good news is that I reckon this can be made to display hilariously broken behaviour
<Xof>
so much worse than anything Didier showed at ELS
<_death>
could be Richard Mlynarik
<phoe>
Xof: please document it and submit to the next ELS, so you can stand up and announce everyone, "I have bad news and bad news; the bad news is that Didier was right last year, the bad news is that I found things that are even worse than that"
<phoe>
s/everyone/
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<Bike>
i've thought about how to implement it, but it seems like a huge pain in the ass, and nobody uses method combinations to begin with, let alone their exotic features
<Bike>
and i don't think that's because of poor support
<Xof>
I think they have potential in the obfuscated lisp coding contest
<Bike>
oh, well, when you put it that way
<addsub>
I guess in lisp world there's no real rush to port docs to epub format.
<beach>
McCLIM defines a method combination called VALUES-MAX-MIN.
<phoe>
addsub: what do you mean?
<addsub>
phoe: I am converting 'gentle intro' to epub.
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<phoe>
obfuscated lisp coding contest is troublesome as soon as you allow reader macros because you can implement a malbolge parser and write the rest of your program in malbolge.
<Bike>
looks like it's only used for one function, which has two methods, both of which return 0 as primary value
<Bike>
need some extensions to truly leverage all the complication
<Xof>
pretty sure it is (was) actually used
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<MichaelRaskin>
phoe: you do know that obfuscated C contest is considered succesful when the year's winning entry leads to a rule change for the next year?
<MichaelRaskin>
A malbolge parser as a reader in obfuscated lisp content would not even need a rule change, it will just get a «so what» from every judge
<Bike>
yeah dull
<Bike>
now, if there was a malbolge method combination,
<Xof>
don't tempt me
<Bike>
at least a turing complete method combination
<Bike>
you could have the qualifiers be transition tuples
<phoe>
MichaelRaskin: yes
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<phoe>
Bike: oh my god
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<jackdaniel>
are we designing CL++ or what? :)
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<Bike>
should be doable without standards changes
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<Xof>
well I think method combinations might be the opposite of Turing complete
<Xof>
I can't work out how to do anything with them
<phoe>
Xof: you could get it to loop unto itself somehow
<Bike>
off the top of my head, you could have a positive integer be the parameter, then have qualifiers be a rational, then make the effective method the list of execution of a FRACTRAN program in order
<phoe>
while inside a method combination, you could perhaps redefine the method combination and call the GF again
<phoe>
I don't think the standard disallows this
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<beach>
jackdaniel: The clstandard_build is not exactly what I am looking for to use for WSCL. It builds each file separately, which is not good enough for the kind of cross referencing I have in mind.
<beach>
jackdaniel: But thanks for suggesting it.
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<jackdaniel>
sure
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<Xof>
looping back is, I think, fairly easy: you can manipulate the next method list for every call-method site
<Xof>
ok, I have a semi-sensible long-form method combination with arguments
<Xof>
remember Didier said he wanted to be able to choose between or and and method-combination at runtime?
<jackdaniel>
thing described in your ticket is not the cause of cairo demos failing
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<thorondor[m]>
ok, thanks
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<asarch>
If I do: (defgeneric bread (butter ham) (:documentation "Bread for your breakfast")) and then I do: (defmethod bread ((butter hot-cake) coffe) (format t "American breakfast to go")). What's wrong?
<asarch>
"There is no class named COMMON-LISP-USER::HOT-CAKE."?
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<Bike>
that seems like a pretty informative error message
<jackdaniel>
well, do you have class hot-cake?
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<jackdaniel>
bisection indicates, that problem is somewhere between screen and a chair (exclusive)
<jackdaniel>
;-)
<Bike>
(defmethod ((butter hot-cake) coffee) ...) means the method takes two arguments, and the first one is an instance of the class hot-cake
<Bike>
if there is no class hot-cake to be an instance of, t here's problems
<asarch>
How would I fix it?
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<Bike>
have a class hot-cake
<asarch>
I mean, this example is from the PCL and it doesn't say anything about it
<Bike>
what are you trying to do here? what did you expect to happen?
<asarch>
The book doesn't say anything about a previous class definition for, this case, "hot-cake"
<Bike>
there's no "hot-cake" in this text, or 'bread" in code
<Bike>
am i missing something
<asarch>
No, I just replace some words for other words
<asarch>
Then, would you declare a class?
<asarch>
*How would you...
<Bike>
defclass. covered in the next chapter.
<asarch>
Doesn't DEFGENERIC do that?
<asarch>
D'oh!
<Bike>
no, defgeneric defines a generic function.
<Bike>
looking at this chapter, it doesn't seem like the code is intended to be run independently.
<asarch>
Oh :-( I thought generic function was the same for classes in Lisp
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<asarch>
Thank you Bike
<asarch>
Thank you very much :-)
<edgar-rft>
asarch, the last sentence on that page is "In the next chapter I'll show you how to define your own classes."
<Bike>
there's a section in here titled "Generic Functions and Classes"
<hjek>
hi, anyone tried LTK? any code i run just gives me a blank window. tried to run a TCL/TK example with 'wish' and worked fine.
<asarch>
D'oh! I still was in the section "Multimethod" trying to figure out how to run that code...
<jackdaniel>
hjek: check out query
<jackdaniel>
I didn't paste code here for obvious reasons
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<jackdaniel>
you may have forgotten to call "pack" for instance
<jackdaniel>
or you didn't estabilish dynamic context by using with-ltk macro
<hjek>
even (ltktest) just shows up blank though...?
<jackdaniel>
and the thing I've pasted on query, if you type it in the repl – does it work?
<hjek>
and (ltk-eyes). the two examples. but will give 'pack' and 'query' a look
<jackdaniel>
it should show a button
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<hjek>
jackdaniel: pasted on query (?). what's that? a code pasting channel?
<hjek>
ah ok i see, another window popped up!
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<hjek>
ouch, i need to disable the smileys in pidgin. all the lisp code is just smiling faces
<jackdaniel>
on IRC you have channels (like #lisp) and direct messages
<jackdaniel>
which are sometimes called query
<edgar-rft>
hjek, Lisp was designed to make you smile :-)
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<hjek>
jackdaniel: it shows a blank window
<hjek>
with the title LTK
<jackdaniel>
then there is something wrong with your system, but I can't tell what is wrong
<jackdaniel>
(as in: works for me)
<hjek>
oh actually, it was the :p in "(ltk:pack b)))" that was a smiley. so tcl is happy too
<hjek>
using newest ECL and LTK from quicklisp. any idea how to get information that would be useful for debugging / filing bug report?
<thorondor[m]>
I've fixed cl-cairo2 on ECL
<jackdaniel>
thorondor[m]: what was wrong?
<jackdaniel>
hjek: no, I don't know, but it works with ECL on my host
<hjek>
ah ok also on ECL. weird.
<thorondor[m]>
it was not ECL problem
<jackdaniel>
hjek: ops, my bad, it does not work on ECL
<jackdaniel>
it worked on sbcl though
<jackdaniel>
OK, so the problem is that ltk was never proted to ECL
<thorondor[m]>
jackdaniel: cl-cairo2 assumed that after calling (trivial-garbage:finalize <object> <function>), <object> was returned, but that was not the case for ECL
<jackdaniel>
it has some mop stuff for sbcl/cmu, but nothing for ecl
<hjek>
mop?
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<jackdaniel>
metaobject protocol
<hjek>
ah
<jackdaniel>
well, it has run-program for ecl, but except that nothing
<jackdaniel>
either way it is most likely a bug in the library
<jackdaniel>
I'm not going to debug ltk beyond what I did until now though
<hjek>
cool, thanks
<hjek>
i know where to look now
<Bike>
thorondor[m]: the trivial-garbage documentation states that finalize returns the object. if it doesn't on ecl, that's a bug in trivial garbage, not cairo2.
<thorondor[m]>
oh. ok.
<thorondor[m]>
I'll make a ticket for trivial-garbage then. thanks
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<thorondor[m]>
it is trivial to implement in trivial-garbage anyway. just return the passed object, regardless of the implementation specific finalizer implementation
<phoe>
jackdaniel: gasp
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<ealfonso>
I was using one package (via (:use :lib1)) and decided to change to a different library lib2, so I removed lib1 from the :use list. now I'm getting a warning: "MY-PACKAGE also uses the following packages: lib1". how can I "un-use" a package?
<ealfonso>
I tried (unexport nil (FIND-PACKAGE 'lib1)) (unexport 'lib1), etc, which didn't work
<Bike>
package redefinition is kind of egh though
<Petit_Dejeuner>
"it is trivial to implement in trivial-garbage" ha
<ealfonso>
Bike thanks, I should probably have thought of that.
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<phoe>
Petit_Dejeuner: time for trivial-trivial
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<phoe>
gosh, I wrote over a thousand lines of markdown over the course of the last three days
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<phoe>
and one of the worst things is that I'm enjoying it
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<ealfonso>
anyone familiar with stefil know how to clear/delete previously defined tests in a suite?
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<PuercoPop>
ealfonso: following ensure-test points to the *TESTS* variable. Also FIND-TEST is SETFable. So (setf (find-test 'my-test) nil) should work
<PuercoPop>
(you are using the hu.dwim.stefil version right?)
<pfdietz_>
Is there a CL test framework for property-based testing? That is, it allows descriptions of properties that some piece of software must have, and (separately) ways of generating inputs for the software.
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<ealfonso>
when I saw an array returned from drakma:http-request, I thought it had interpreted the application/json content type and automatically parsed response JSON to an array... I was wrong. apparently I have to add the hack: (push (cons "application" "json") drakma:*text-content-types*) suggested here https://sites.google.com/site/sabraonthehill/home/json-libraries
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<z3t0>
ealfonso, you may find cl-json useful to convert that to a list
<pfdietz_>
That all made me not appreciate CL's punning of () and NIL.
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<pierpa>
I like CL's punning. The problem only occurs when interfacing with a format that chose a different set of punnings.
<antoszka>
What's a punning, pierpa?
<pierpa>
so, a naive mapping between the two doesn't work. Not a CL fault.
<pierpa>
it means something for two different purposes
<pierpa>
*something used
<pierpa>
(in this context)
<pierpa>
like nil being the empty list and the boolean false value
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<antoszka>
Is there a reader macro out there for ingesting/operating on IP addresses written in decimal notation? (and keeping them internally as 32-bit integers as they are?)
<antoszka>
I'd rather not have to enter them as strings and convert manually.
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<Bike>
not that i'm aware of. i think socket libraries tend to use vectors as addresses, but i could be wrong
<Bike>
so like #(127 0 0 1)
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<antoszka>
Bike: oh, okay, any particular socket library you have in mind? Do you think it'd be useful to write a macro like this?
<antoszka>
I could try creating a library for that.
<Bike>
sb-bsd-sockets
<Bike>
e.g. (sb-bsd-sockets:host-ent-address (sb-bsd-sockets:get-host-by-name "google.com")) => #(172 217 3 110)
<antoszka>
thx
<antoszka>
guess that's not bad
<Bike>
tho it's actually a ub8 vector, not a general vector
<antoszka>
still, that works
<Bike>
as for a reader macro, id on't know, i don't deal with that kind of stuff much, but i thought hardcoded ip addresses weren't common
<antoszka>
wonder if ipv6 is supported
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<antoszka>
that'd actually be non-trivial for a reader macro (and probably fun to code)
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<Bike>
let's see, on sbcl gethostbyname actually returns two values, and the second is v6
<pierpa>
There's only a finite number of characters, and very few of them are usable easily. I wouldn't waste one for this macro. And the convenience would be infinitesimal anyway.
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<antoszka>
Yeah, seems most of the useful code is there already in sb-bsd-sockets.
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<Bike>
despite the name, the interface is also usable on ecl and maybe other implementations