<B0101> hi azonenberg
<azonenberg> hi
<azonenberg> berndj: lol
<azonenberg> And when you hit e-beam...
<azonenberg> You think DNQ is home synthesizable?
<azonenberg> I am not enough of a chemist to be willing to attempt it
<azonenberg> If nothing else because i dont know how to mix with the resin in the proper proportion etc
<azonenberg> Not to mention you have to do the entire synthesis in the dark :P
<azonenberg> And i know zilch about o-chem
<B0101> guess what? Someone really called the cops
<azonenberg> o_O
<azonenberg> how'd it turn out
<B0101> and i have a license, so nothing wrong with my experiments
<azonenberg> :)
<B0101> how paranoid can people get anyway?
<azonenberg> Very, apparently
<B0101> i hope that nobody is going to write a letter to the MP
<B0101> here, people call police --> does not work --> letter to MP
<azonenberg> And what can they do if you arent breaking any laws?
<B0101> nothing
<azonenberg> Exactly
<B0101> but they have pretty weird suggestions
<B0101> there was a case where someone was cooking curry, neighbors didn't like it --> write to MP
<azonenberg> lol
<azonenberg> And the result was?
<B0101> MP says: Cook your curry only when your neighbors are not around
<azonenberg> lol
<azonenberg> wow
<B0101> the neighbors are from china
<B0101> so i would say: racism
<azonenberg> you are?
<azonenberg> has no idea of your ethnic background :p
<B0101> I am of no race
<B0101> I am happy with anyone
<B0101> does not matter if you're muslim, indian, chinese, whatever
<B0101> we're still human...
<azonenberg> Too bad there aren't more people like that :p
<azonenberg> just imagine how nice it'd be if the world was run by scientists and engineers
<azonenberg> instead of politicians and, in some areas, religious zealots
<B0101> i believe it would be a better world
<azonenberg> Yeah
<B0101> can no longer stand political idiots
<azonenberg> I've abstained in every election since i became elegible to vote
<azonenberg> Because i disliked all candidates equally
<azonenberg> and could not in good conscience vote for any of them :p
<B0101> here in singapore, voting is compulsory
<azonenberg> In such a situation i'd probably vote for the candidate with the least chance of winning
<azonenberg> just so that when one of the other guys wins and screws things up even more
<azonenberg> i have the satisfaction of knowing i didnt vote for him
<B0101> but, here, if you don't vote, your name will be canceled off the voters list
<B0101> and you are not allowed to vote anymore
<azonenberg> Yeah - I'd still want the option if i ever found someone who was worth voting for
<azonenberg> But in the majority of cases, all of the candidates have the same fatal flaw
<azonenberg> They're all politicians
<B0101> agreed
<B0101> they claim to do things for the people, but when they get elected, they screw up everything
<B0101> but here...
<B0101> the same people are being voted for every election
<azonenberg> lol
<B0101> many people are aware that my government is failing in executing its duties
<azonenberg> like i said, there's a reason i stay out of politics as best i can
<B0101> how much does a bus fare cost over there?
<azonenberg> No matter how incompetent your government is, the people still need science done
<azonenberg> Hmm, its been a while since i actually paid for one
<azonenberg> my tuition includes a free pass for the local routes
<azonenberg> and i rarely travel farther than that
<azonenberg> gets me to the grocery store and back
<B0101> here... the bus fare costs 1.70+
<azonenberg> or into the city and back
<azonenberg> USD?
<azonenberg> or in your local currency
<B0101> SGD.
<azonenberg> 1.36?
<azonenberg> usd
<azonenberg> My guess is, it might actually be more for some of the routes here
<azonenberg> but it depends on how far
<B0101> 1.37
<azonenberg> Depends on whose conversion table you use i guess lol
<azonenberg> that last significant digit changes all the time
<B0101> last time, the fares were measured by time
<azonenberg> like i said i have no idea as i havent paid for a bus fare in months
<azonenberg> since i dont really travel too far from school unless i'm with a group and usually someone in the group has a car
<B0101> life is hell here though
<B0101> thats why many people have left singapore
<B0101> for good
<B0101> but...
<B0101> for men, if they haven't completed compulsory military service, they cannot give up their citizenship
<B0101> even if the guy have lived in US for his whole life, he still has to go back
<B0101> enough about government
<azonenberg> Lol indeed
<wolfspraul> B0101: someone called the police because you were doing some chemical work at home?
<wolfspraul> how did they find out about your experiments?
<B0101> wolfspraul: i know i was doing a chemical experiment but how they found out? i have no idea
<wolfspraul> maybe you should think about that
<azonenberg> wolfspraul: for a law abiding home scientist, hiding is usually the last thing on your mind
<wolfspraul> who called anyway? your neighbors?
<wolfspraul> ah well, let's call it 'environmental awareness' :-)
<wolfspraul> if you home is bugged, you would probably at least like to know, right?
<B0101> my neighbor called the cops
<wolfspraul> if your sources are keeping track of your purchases and reporting them somewhere, you would like to know
<azonenberg> wolfspraul: oh, lol
<azonenberg> That's what you're talking about
<wolfspraul> I live in Beijing, I have no illusions
<B0101> but my sources? no'
<wolfspraul> and he lives in Singapore
<wolfspraul> that's what we call a police state
<wolfspraul> but how did the neighbors find out?
<azonenberg> Well, they claim the neighbor called them
<azonenberg> first of all
<wolfspraul> yes
<azonenberg> Might be covering their real source
<azonenberg> if you want to be paranoid
<wolfspraul> me being an englightened westerner, I would directly talk to my neighbors
<wolfspraul> see what's going on
<azonenberg> And, having been on the wrong end of US gov't surveillance, i have few illusions either :P
<azonenberg> Though I do not think my apartment is bugged
<wolfspraul> B0101: most suppliers of chemical goods are nowadays reporting here and there
<wolfspraul> I think that's a given
<wolfspraul> but how do the neighbors know about your experiment? interesting
<B0101> time to find out
<wolfspraul> me in Beijing, I watch for the smallest 'unusual' thing
<wolfspraul> in China you learn this: there is nothing unusual
<wolfspraul> :-)
<wolfspraul> coincidence? ha ha
<wolfspraul> you bet
<wolfspraul> :-)
<B0101> be right back
<azonenberg> To quote an acquaintance of mine... "I'm a lawyer. They pay me not to believe in coincidences."
<azonenberg> I won't call him a friend, we didnt get along well
<azonenberg> but i do have to give him credit for that lol
<azonenberg> summed it up quice nicely
<wolfspraul> I would order as much as possible under aliases
<wolfspraul> I think that's just fair
<B0101> My neighbor said that he suspected me
<wolfspraul> balance it out
<azonenberg> It depends a lot on the situation
<azonenberg> the country you're in, general political climate
<wolfspraul> they do data mining, I use aliases
<wolfspraul> it just restores the natural equilibrium
<azonenberg> in the US people are somewhat paranoid but it isnt what i'd call a police state (not yet at least)
<B0101> he saw me bring in equipment into my house (dang!)
<azonenberg> it's such that the looking-bad aspect of trying to hide
<azonenberg> would do more harm than the possible benefit
<azonenberg> Somewhere else? You have to judge for yourself
<wolfspraul> trying to hide makes you look good in my book
<azonenberg> Around here, it would make you look like a criminal
<wolfspraul> the bad guys are in disguise, they have the best, and wrong, trained cover story
<wolfspraul> yeah well
<wolfspraul> that way the US will go deeper into police state, slowly :-)
<azonenberg> lol
<wolfspraul> unless more people learn that it's the worst guys that look best
<wolfspraul> because it's their profession
<azonenberg> yeah
<wolfspraul> I live in China
<B0101> wolfspraul: My suppliers will never report anything
<azonenberg> B0101: how sure are you about that
<wolfspraul> yes, I don't believe that
<wolfspraul> and in Singapore to boot
<wolfspraul> do you order anonymously?
<wolfspraul> if that is even possible in Singapore
<azonenberg> One of my biggest suppliers is a US gov't contractor from what i understand
<azonenberg> They impose quantity limits on purchases of strong oxidizers by private individuals etc
<azonenberg> And i'm sure if i ordered specific combinations of materials it'd get reported
<B0101> everytime I buy chemicals, its always over the phone
<B0101> and...
<azonenberg> On the other hand, i also doubt they have a database of every single person who bought a liter of technical grade HCl
<wolfspraul> they mine everything they can get their hands on
<wolfspraul> and it's stored indefinitely, I think we can safely assume that
<B0101> since my company does use chemicals, nothing wrong about that
<azonenberg> Oh, if its collected it definitely is
<wolfspraul> in the US in particular the 'national security' machine is already mostly out of control
<azonenberg> The NSA's data warehouses are probably in the exabytes by now
<azonenberg> if not more
<wolfspraul> they do whatever they want, justify their own need, grow happily, etc.
<wolfspraul> let's see where it goes
<B0101> I wonder what people can do with Quantum computers...
<wolfspraul> if you say anything against this 'security' machine you are deemed suspicious already
<azonenberg> lol
<azonenberg> security != security theater
<wolfspraul> but we need the (old) US!
<wolfspraul> "if you are a good guy you have nothing to hide" ha ha
<wolfspraul> how out of that with reality that is
<azonenberg> lol
<wolfspraul> like from evil's playbook
<B0101> wolfspraul: i agree about your security machine statement
<azonenberg> wolfspraul: I have reasonable precautions re encryption of sensitive stuff
<wolfspraul> the opposite is true
<azonenberg> All of my long term archival storage is compartmentalized by project
<azonenberg> and i never mount them unless i need to
<wolfspraul> if it were that simple, lies could grow indefinitely
<azonenberg> so even if i'm being keylogged i'm safe
<B0101> Encryption may soon be useless though
<wolfspraul> so this stupid trick must be debunked first
<azonenberg> But, tbh, i am not that worried about national intelligence
<wolfspraul> the more you hide, the more likely you are a good guy
<azonenberg> by the time they're interested in me, i'll probably be working for them or someone on their level
<azonenberg> i am far more worried about the paranoid neighbor
<azonenberg> who can make my life a hassle now and doesn't have to do any data mining to make that happen
<wolfspraul> it's the worst case that try to tell us we shouldn't hide anything
<wolfspraul> remind to self: use more aliases more consistently :-)
<wolfspraul> rotate them more often
<wolfspraul> B0101: keep an eye on your neighbors :-)
<wolfspraul> if something suspicious happens, they would probably want you to call the police...
<wolfspraul> just in case
<wolfspraul> 1-800-suspect
<azonenberg> lol
<B0101> Never buy a lot of paint here. you'd know why
<azonenberg> wonders what illegal purposes paint can be used for
<azonenberg> i know about (and avoid buying) several common drug / explosive precursors but paint isn't on any of the lists i'm aware of
<azonenberg> Thats another thing that helps
<azonenberg> Not buying items on watchlists
<B0101> in Singapore, loan sharks splash paint on houses (if the owner didn't pay up)
<B0101> and therefore, if your neighbors see you buy a lot of paint, watch out
<B0101> wonders if ISP is logging her internet use
<azonenberg> B0101: Don't wonder that
<azonenberg> Wonder how much they're logging
<azonenberg> full packets? keywords? just basic stats like average bytes per second plus some search queries?
<B0101> i have no idea what they're logging (if they are logging)
<B0101> I hope they aren't though
<wolfspraul> oh of course they are
<wolfspraul> in fact most likely multiple entities are logging, whatever they can get their hands on
<B0101> wonders where has privacy gone to
<wolfspraul> I don't think I'm paranoid, just realistic about internet traffic in 2011
<azonenberg> Ok, its possible your ISP isnt logging
<azonenberg> But they are cooperating with the gov't logging
<wolfspraul> we need to use more ssl (no matter how broken it is), more tunnels, more anonymizers/tor etc.
<azonenberg> I run SSL over basically everything that allows it
<wolfspraul> I don't think you can make that distinction anymore
<azonenberg> but i trust it only to prevent casual snooping
<azonenberg> wolfspraul: the isp isnt logging for their own purposes
<azonenberg> i mean
<wolfspraul> there's too many backdoors here and there
<wolfspraul> after 9/11, it was still a big deal that the 'feds' wanted access to the 'server rooms' at the big telcos
<wolfspraul> I think nowadays the only question is how big the teams are that are working on yet smarter 'apis' for the various 'agencies'
<wolfspraul> in China they are getting to the point of doing automated live tracking of certain keywords spoken over the phone
<wolfspraul> for SMS that already works for many years
<wolfspraul> but now they are upgrading, and can do it even for audio :-)
<azonenberg> wolfspraul: The only thing i use phone for, re sensitive data
<azonenberg> is to exchange key fingerprints
<wolfspraul> so if I speak certain keywords, bang, the line drops
<azonenberg> afetr authenticating the other party by voice and the codeword of the day/hour :P
<wolfspraul> the capacity is only enough for part of all numbers now, but moore's law should help with that
<azonenberg> And i dont think they drop calls here
<azonenberg> just flag them for monitoring
<wolfspraul> oh I play with the system :-)
<wolfspraul> I send the dirty words, only to watch the sms disappearing in nirvana
<azonenberg> Let me put it this way, even when i know for a fact that They were watching
<azonenberg> as in, a conversation between me and a friend was being MITMed in real time
<wolfspraul> but I also don't care about 'canceled' sim cards, since I swap my sim cards often
<azonenberg> and messages were being received the other guy hadnt sent
<azonenberg> the communication never got dropped
<wolfspraul> yes that is happening in CHina, right now only for numbers on (growing) watchlists
<wolfspraul> for sms it's here for years, for audio growing now
<wolfspraul> that's in addition to the archiving and voice fingerprinting, of course
<azonenberg> Well, thats the difference between our countries
<azonenberg> china wants to suppress communication of certain subjects
<azonenberg> in the usa, they just want to know you're talking about it
<wolfspraul> I wouldn't be surprised if they archive _all_ mobile phone data
<wolfspraul> I mean, I would
<wolfspraul> :-)
<azonenberg> You mean, full voice logs plus sms?
<wolfspraul> storage capacity is cheap, and you never know what you can mine out of it later
<azonenberg> and endpoint data?
<wolfspraul> and there is zero judicial oversight, no downside essentially
<B0101> I want to have as much privacy as possible, but i think that may not be possible now... :(
<wolfspraul> yes sure, everything
<wolfspraul> why not
<azonenberg> here in the usa my guess is that they have sms logs
<azonenberg> voice ID data (who called what number when)
<azonenberg> and maybe TTS transcriptions
<wolfspraul> it's just a technical problem, amount of data etc.
<wolfspraul> but that means - more budget for my unit :-)
<wolfspraul> that's all
<wolfspraul> I would do it.
<azonenberg> i dont know if they have full audio
<wolfspraul> in China I would be surprised if they didn't
<azonenberg> if i had reliable enough speech recognition i'd just do transcripts
<wolfspraul> only a technical problem
<azonenberg> But yes
<azonenberg> it would not surprise me at all
<wolfspraul> they will start with watchlists, then grow as the technical abilities get better
<azonenberg> I just dont think the usa is going to go to the point that china is, because the gov't has differnet goals
<azonenberg> thdey dont want to prevent people from talking about stuff
<azonenberg> they want information
<azonenberg> if they cut you off, they dont know what you're about to do
<wolfspraul> let's see. gsm is nicely compressed, 1KB/sec roughly?
<wolfspraul> so in 1hr that's 3.6 MB
<azonenberg> no idea, but yes its def feasible to log
<wolfspraul> the cutoff is to avoid 'waves' going through the system, like a large group coordinating for some event/demonstration
<wolfspraul> that needs to happen in real-time
<wolfspraul> just cutoff keywords
<wolfspraul> watch the chatting, if some keywords suddenly grow - block them
<wolfspraul> that's like a first-line response
<wolfspraul> then you can do some mining to find the sources and quietly track down and labor-camp those people later
<azonenberg> i see
<wolfspraul> only take out the top 5-10 troublemakers, and weeks later
<azonenberg> Makes sense
<wolfspraul> so wait, 3.6 MB / hour
<wolfspraul> let's say 2 hours / day
<wolfspraul> 7 MB
<azonenberg> i'd say 20
<azonenberg> be conservative
<wolfspraul> 1 million phones = 7 terabytes?
<wolfspraul> correct?
<azonenberg> double that, say 16TB
<wolfspraul> 500 million phones would be?
<azonenberg> you can build a server with that much capacity for $4000
<wolfspraul> what comes after tera?
<azonenberg> if not less
<azonenberg> peta
<wolfspraul> ok
<azonenberg> a PB per day is a little much i think
<azonenberg> but transcripts of calls?
<wolfspraul> 16tb*500=8000tb=8 petabytes
<azonenberg> from automated speech recognition
<azonenberg> plus metadata of who called who when for how long
<wolfspraul> who knows there are lots of dialects etc.
<wolfspraul> better be safe than sorry
<azonenberg> In china it'd be harder
<wolfspraul> plus remember: bigger technical problem = more budget for my unit/department
<azonenberg> Or, record anything you cant make text of
<wolfspraul> nah, just everything
<azonenberg> with >95% probability
<wolfspraul> 8 petabytes per day
<wolfspraul> 250 petabytes per month
<wolfspraul> 3000 petabytes per year
<azonenberg> Thats a lot
<wolfspraul> what budget is needed for that?
<wolfspraul> 100 million USD / year ?
<azonenberg> Three exabytes per year
<azonenberg> Let's see
<wolfspraul> peanuts
<azonenberg> 3000 PB = 3 million TB
<azonenberg> 1TB = say $20 at bulk prices
<azonenberg> plus infrastructure for hosting etc
<azonenberg> So hmm
<azonenberg> for $100M/yr you probably could
<wolfspraul> and?
<azonenberg> it might actually be feasible
<wolfspraul> you think it's not happening?
<wolfspraul> h aha
<wolfspraul> that's almost too small for the military
<azonenberg> I had no doubt that metadata was being logged
<wolfspraul> they need multi-billion USD projects
<azonenberg> along with probably text transcripts
<azonenberg> i just wasnt sure if full audio was feasible
<wolfspraul> but sure they will do this too
<wolfspraul> plus it gets expensive with all the corruption etc.
<azonenberg> but now that you've run the numbers? i have little doubt NSA is doing it already
<wolfspraul> so price * 10
<wolfspraul> 1 billion USD / year
<wolfspraul> China spent ca. 100 billion USD last year on 'harmonious society'
<wolfspraul> which is their codeword for all sorts of suppressive activities
<wolfspraul> if 1 billion logs all phone traffic, it will be done
<wolfspraul> and the price is even coming down each year :-)
<B0101> I think the size of those logs would have reached the zettabyte range
<azonenberg> Well, email and other stuff is almost certainly being logged
<azonenberg> probably not full packet logs of internet traffic
<azonenberg> but full content of voip and im traffic
<azonenberg> search history
<azonenberg> maybe list of URLs visited, at least from pages containing flagged keywords
<wolfspraul> yes not all internet traffic
<wolfspraul> but the phone networks are 100% controlled
<wolfspraul> in China for sure
<wolfspraul> it's just a technical problem
<B0101> azonenberg: remember that i told you that i will be fabricating josephson junctions?
<azonenberg> Yeah
<azonenberg> What supplies are necessary for that>
<azonenberg> i know little about the physics
<azonenberg> I do suggest that you start at macroscale and not try doing lithography AND a new device simultaneously
<azonenberg> if you are going to try doing microscale, get lithography debugged first
<azonenberg> Which i am still working on :P
<B0101> If i manage to fabricate that, I will use them to do encryption way better than our current technology
<azonenberg> How so
<B0101> they can be used as Qubits for a quantum computer. so,
<azonenberg> Ooh
<B0101> i can use them to encrypt data using states of atoms (quantum computers use atoms)
<azonenberg> Home quantum computing research
<azonenberg> i like it
<B0101> got the idea from my younger brother
<B0101> He told me about these
<azonenberg> One thing is for sure
<azonenberg> There is going to be some interesting research coming out of this group in the next few yers
<azonenberg> years*
<azonenberg> On that note... going to head out to the living room and play with immersion lithography and double patterning (not simultaneously)
<azonenberg> be back in an hour or so with results, hopefully
<B0101> ok, see you later
<CIA-67> homecmos r123 | trunk/lithography-tests/labnotes/azonenberg_labnotes.txt | Merging old lab notes
<CIA-67> homecmos r124 | trunk/lithography-tests/labnotes/azonenberg_labnotes.txt | Today's lab notes
<bart416> azonenberg, somebody beat you to it!
<azonenberg> bart416: there have been quite a few
<bart416> Yeah, but this time it was an instructables idiot :(
<azonenberg> lol
<azonenberg> The ones in the game are 58 inches high? o_O
<azonenberg> That's big
<azonenberg> Mine is going to be ~36" i think tooo
<azonenberg> Also, i dont think his shoots
<azonenberg> The biggest feature of mine is that it will have proper machine-vision based target tracking (not just a simple motion detector)
<azonenberg> and shoot rubber bands at them
<bart416> Have you made a chain rubber band launcher?
<azonenberg> I have a fully automatic one in progress
<azonenberg> hoping for ~600 RPM rate of fire
<azonenberg> and 10-20 shot ammo capacity
<bart416> I've always found the issue with rubber bands to be feeding the "ammunition"
<azonenberg> I have a firing mechanism worked out already
<azonenberg> just have to work out some detalis like the slopes of the ratchets and the exact angle/position of each solenoid
<bart416> Yeah, that's a simple firing system
<bart416> the issue is feeding the ammunition though
<azonenberg> You load it all in advance
<azonenberg> Thats the only feasible way
<azonenberg> But if you have two of them and 10-20 shots per launcher
<azonenberg> and the thing fires in 2-5 round bursts
<azonenberg> that'd last a while
<azonenberg> Oh, and mine will have an accelerometer
<azonenberg> so it'll freak out appropriately when knocked over
<azonenberg> shooting everywhere and a suitable sound bite
<azonenberg> "No hard feelings"
<bart416> meh, loading in advance is meh
<bart416> I want to be able to throw 100 rubber bands over a rod
<bart416> and get it to launch all of them :P
<azonenberg> lol
<azonenberg> Would be nice
<azonenberg> if you design an actuation system that can do it, i'll write the aiming software :P
<berndj> azonenberg, while you're working alone in your lab, remember to occasionally randomly say aloud, "I know you're listening"  (xkcd reference)
<azonenberg> lol
<berndj> and i think you guys are living in the wrong country!
<berndj> nobody could care less about what experiments you do at home.  well if it really is a meth lab and the police have other reasons to visit you, you might have a problem
<azonenberg> lol
<azonenberg> If you have a meth lab at home you have problems already :p
<azonenberg> Like rival dealers
<azonenberg> to say the least
<berndj> metadata is certainly logged; how do you think you get billed for your calls?  also, police have been catching crooks for years with call metadata.  logged at telco of course; but big brother can get at that
<azonenberg> Yeah
<azonenberg> The only question is, how much more
<azonenberg> our consensus is, quite a bit :p
<berndj> and i think one should make it a habit, and proselytize this habit, of using "suspicious" words in random harmless conversations
<azonenberg> lol
<berndj> i think josephson junctions weakly imply microscale - if your loop is too big you won't see the flux quantization
<azonenberg> Hmm
<azonenberg> I dont know enouhg about the physics'
<berndj> ok i'm caught up now
<azonenberg> And i'm doing homework lol
<azonenberg> machine vision ftw
<berndj> i don't feel qualified to have an opinion on complete call logging in your locales, but i expext it's somewhat unlikely in ZA
<azonenberg> While also trying to make room in my schedule to grade homework for the two classes i'm TAing (computer organization and crypto 1)
<azonenberg> and if i'm lucky even get some work done on my research
<berndj> surveillance with (?) warrant during an investigation, sure, but not all-logging-all-the-time
<azonenberg> I expect its unlikely in the USA but i am nearly certain they have keyword triggers that initiate a speech-recognition based transcript
<azonenberg> As well as full logging during investigations
<berndj> all below the board of course
<berndj> black rooms or what's the jargon?
<azonenberg> Of course
<azonenberg> You dont go out and advertise it, the people will revolt
<azonenberg> you do it slowly
<azonenberg> it gradually becomes common knowledge and people learn to accept it
<azonenberg> before long its too late
<berndj> "for security reasons" [weasel words]
<azonenberg> and you're living in modern China
<berndj> there should be some counter-spying
<azonenberg> The EFF has some nice info on that
<berndj> i wonder if one can build an interferometer to spy on government offices - red dot on window style
<azonenberg> I know for a fact that serious intel folks have air-gapped windows etc for that reason
<azonenberg> and white noise generators
<berndj> drat
<azonenberg> Also, red dots are so 1980s
<azonenberg> everyone doing it these days uses IR
<berndj> yeah
<azonenberg> easy to detect electronically or with night vision but at least it wont show up in a casual investigation
<berndj> don't want visible spots
<azonenberg> Yep
<azonenberg> IR you have to look for
<azonenberg> not that its hard to find
<azonenberg> But visible can draw your attention and tip your target off
<azonenberg> Assuming he's not [A-Z]{3} in which case he already knows people want to watch :P
<berndj> yeah, you have to suspect it before you can find it
<berndj> anyway my idea is rather to spy on *politicians* than on the NSA itself
<berndj> to give them a taste of their own medicine
<azonenberg> Lol
<azonenberg> I saw that in a movie somewhere
<azonenberg> Someone was being spied on by a government conspiracy
<azonenberg> they took all of the surveillance devices and moved them to the office of the senator who ordered the investigation
<azonenberg> and made at least some of them obvious enough to tip the guy off
<azonenberg> then his team combed the place and found hundreds of cameras, audio bugs, etc
<berndj> plot fragment looks familiar
<berndj> oh, and yes, DNQ looked semi accessible, if you can get HNO3 and H2SO4
<azonenberg> Those are easily obtainable
<azonenberg> But i dont trust my ochem knowledge that far
<azonenberg> I'm not a chemist
<azonenberg> i'm a computer scientist dabbling in EE :P
<berndj> the biggest problem is probably getting the reaction yield you need
<azonenberg> Like i said, i woudlnt even attempt it
<azonenberg> But if someone sends me a batch of homemade photoresist i will gladly test it :P
<berndj> heh. i'm cursed with a bootstrap-everything-from-stone-age-materials mentality
<berndj> yeah, if you want DNQ in 2011, i'd certainly say just buy it
<azonenberg> no, i'd buy photoresist :P
<berndj> (if only i knew where to get it locally, prefer to avoid having to import)
<azonenberg> complete with resin and solvent
<azonenberg> where do you live again - ZA?
<berndj> yes, those ratios are also important, but i think that's minor if you've already made DNQ in your kitchen sink!
<azonenberg> Lol true
<berndj> yes, ZA - cape town in particular
<azonenberg> Hmm, i dont know if there is much ic work going on down there
<berndj> not that it's impossible to buy stuff from china, but i'd rather just touch a bottle of solution before i buy it
<azonenberg> i know there are fabs all over western europe and the far east
<azonenberg> And nobody sells photoresist reatil
<azonenberg> retail*
<azonenberg> Nobody
<azonenberg> I bought mine from a company halfway across the state mail order
<berndj> we *had* a fab, but i called them the other day to ask about their MPW service, but the fabbing now happens in china :(
<azonenberg> who rebottled it from a large company
<berndj> we used to have a whole lot of high-tech stuff, it was part of apartheid sanctions-busting
<azonenberg> the big companies like AZ wont sell anything less than a few gallons or *maybe* a liter
<azonenberg> i bought eight ounces of shipley SP24 a year ago
<berndj> yikes
<azonenberg> from the reseller
<azonenberg> they sold down to two
<berndj> what sort of price does it go for?
<azonenberg> and in retrospect i should have gotten two :p
<azonenberg> i havnet used much
<azonenberg> prices in USD
<berndj> an ouce being 30-odd grams?
<berndj> *ounce
<azonenberg> fluid ounces
<azonenberg> 2 oz = 59 ml
<azonenberg> so my 8-oz bottle is 236 ml
<azonenberg> i've used maybe 50 or 100 over the last year
<azonenberg> if not less
<azonenberg> the bottle is around half full but it wasnt full to start
<berndj> and this stuff is useable also for PCBs?
<azonenberg> It is marketed for use on pcbs
<azonenberg> 20um resolution is way more than its made for lol
<berndj> oh, but it happens to work also on silicon?
<azonenberg> Yes
<berndj> nice
<azonenberg> It also forms a much thicker coating than conventional IC resists
<azonenberg> so i dilute 50% with acetone
<azonenberg> to reduce viscosity and form a thinner layer
<berndj> good point
<azonenberg> needless to say this also increases yield
<azonenberg> in terms of cm^2 / ml
<berndj> and you use only a drop at a time?  although you cover a far smaller area too
<azonenberg> I have a 30ml amber glass bottle
<azonenberg> half full of 50% SP24 in acetone
<azonenberg> that i mixed up begining of summer
<azonenberg> i've been using a drop per die, which is overkill (maybe 80% wastage, if not more)
<bart416> That nitrogen group on DNQ is hard to do I think
<azonenberg> And i still am not going through it at any appreciable rate
<berndj> part of my anti-import mentality is that it's non-trivial to send money overseas sans credit card.  we still have exchange controls :(
<azonenberg> bart416: My point is that except in extenuating circumstances, you are probably better off buying photoresist
<azonenberg> since its cheap - a 2-ounce bottle that will last you a year
<azonenberg> costs about as much as one blank 2-inch wafer
<bart416> It'd be cheaper to make though :P
<azonenberg> $40?
<berndj> bart416, i imagine it's a slow / low-yield reaction.  converting an NH2 group to N2 with HNO2
<azonenberg> for 2-ounces
<azonenberg> good luck making it cheaper than that on a small scale
<bart416> berndj, I wouldn't use that to be honnest
<azonenberg> it'd cost me that much just to get hno3 + h2so4
<bart416> I'd start out with something that already has the double nitrogen
<berndj> hmm. like what?
<berndj> mothballs are cheap
<azonenberg> lol, i'm just thinking what a bunch of geeks we must look like to outsiders :p
<azonenberg> Discussing methods of turning mothballs into chemicals for making ICs
<azonenberg> as a sunday-afternoon pastime
<azonenberg> And being entirely serious about it
<azonenberg> ooh
<bart416> Not sure if I'll be allowed though :(
<azonenberg> why?
<bart416> Credit contract?Access is determined after successful competences assessment
<bart416> ^that's why
<bart416> I'm not in chemical engineering
<azonenberg> oh, what are you in?
<bart416> EE
<azonenberg> if you've taken basic chem and push the right people in the right direction
<bart416> Though strictly speaking I do qualify for it no matter what with my physics degree
<azonenberg> you probably will be able to
<bart416> Not so sure
<bart416> There are a lot of problems with this
<bart416> + only 15 hours