sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<maaku>
someone sent me plasma.io asking for a review
<maaku>
as far as I can tell this is just sidechains from 2014?
<maaku>
I'm not sure what is new
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<roasbeef>
maaku: it's pretty diff from 2014 sidechains
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<maaku>
roasbeef: the consensus enforcement is locked waiting periods with an spv reorg proof.. looks the same
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<stevenroose>
andytoshi: Greg mentions in his CT talk @ Coinbase that with the CT scheme at that time there was a choice between unconditional privacy and computational soundness or either unconditional soundness and computational privacy
<stevenroose>
andytoshi: whether that was implemented and/or deployed, I cannot know
<stevenroose>
tell*
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<andytoshi>
stevenroose: i implemented an unconditionally sound rangeproof, but we never came up with a satisfactory unconditionally sound assets scheme
<andytoshi>
and bulletproofs are not unconditionally sound, but they're so much more efficient that it's hard to go back from them
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<stevenroose>
andytoshi: so when they would get deployed on a livenet, it would be all about finding a quantum-proof replacement before it is needed?
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<andytoshi>
yes
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<stevenroose>
That's tricky
<stevenroose>
I mean, they will exist. But they might not be feasible footprint-wise
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<roasbeef>
maaku: well it tries to go beyond a re-org proof to generaly invalidity, also diff from 2014 sidechains in that the root block hash of the sidechain is committed in the main chain every few state transitions
<roasbeef>
they've mostly moved to a simpler variant, based on peter todd's clients side validatino stuffs
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<maaku>
"it tries to go beyond a re-org proof to general invalidity" -- meaning? the mainchain has no idea what the consensus rules of the sidechain are
<maaku>
" also diff from 2014 sidechains in that the root block hash of the sidechain is committed in the main chain every few state transitions" -- no that was very much a part of the 2014 idea
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<maaku>
it's sortof a forced choice. it's the only way you can get things to scale reasonably well and do things like unilateral withdraw
<roasbeef>
you'd post a hash of the sidechain, there's a contestation window, if you can prove the transition between this hash and the last was invalid, then things get rolled back to that prior hash
<roasbeef>
was it? can't find any mention of that in the paper, just about deposit/withdrawl
<maaku>
regarding "general invalidity" the mainchain can't know what the sidechain rules to check are. it just has to understand enough of the rules to check what it cares about, which is the reorg proof
<roasbeef>
it's also meant to be hierarchical
<roasbeef>
yeh it tries to do more than a re-org proof
<maaku>
the paper is an academic paper, it focuses on just the necessary mechanism
<roasbeef>
think of there being some master output in the main chain that knows what transitions "should" look like
<maaku>
the unilateral withdraw stuff goes back to stuff alex mizrahi started back in 2013
<roasbeef>
sure...but if it isn't mentioned in the main paper then not sure how people are meant to just assume various components of the scheme
<maaku>
i know there is discussion of implementation approaches in 2014 on wizards, bitcointalk, and reddit
<maaku>
i didn't say it was in the paper :)
<roasbeef>
yeh i understand that
<maaku>
just that this is exactly what was widely being talked about back then
<roasbeef>
from my PoV it's very different
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<maaku>
I'm just saying we must be failing at preserving continuity of knowledge if some touted new idea is exactly the same as one from 4 years ago
<maaku>
and I still don't see how it's any different at all
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<roasbeef>
if it is the very same idea then yes would agree seems there's a shortcoming
<waxwing>
oh so it's paillier based? (the new scriptless script ecdsa thing)
<roasbeef>
the main diff from my PoV is: there's a permanent output in the main chain for the sidechain, this output gets threaded through (in utxo land), it commits the blockhash of the side chain but also has another clause to verify that an _entire_ block may have violated state transition rules, if that's the case, then the prior output (state) is instead created (a rollback), this lets people do mass withdrawls if funny things happend on the sidechain
<roasbeef>
waxwing: yep
<waxwing>
istr something similar was done before for .. what was it, threshold multisig?
<roasbeef>
maaku: if that's a party of the 2014 idea, then i guess i totally missed it
<roasbeef>
waxwing: a 2-party 2-of-2 ecdsa technique
<maaku>
roasbeef: the threading through of a single utxo is just a more constrained choice of design space. that's definately the realm of things that were discussed back then.
<maaku>
the mass withdraw stuff was 100% considered back in 2014. i built the design for some of that. my employment contracts for blockstream explicitly transfers IP rights for it :)
<maaku>
you don't need block invalidity proofs though, you just need a bonded request for dispersal which is invalidated by a proof of extension
<roasbeef>
well, then i guess none of this was really communicated to the wider community
<roasbeef>
may be the case that the general idea is similar, but the actual impl in there is pretty specific to their target main chain
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