sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
weez17 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
weez17 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Belkaar has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
Belkaar has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Belkaar has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Belkaar has quit [Changing host]
dgenr8 has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
dgenr8 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Samdney has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
Chris_Stewart_5 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
nealsampat has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Chris_Stewart_5 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
tiagotrs has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
CubicEarths has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Chris_Stewart_5 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
CubicEarths has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
CubicEar_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
DrOlmer has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
tromp has joined #bitcoin-wizards
DrOlmer has joined #bitcoin-wizards
CubicEar_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
tromp has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
Chris_Stewart_5 has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
Chris_Stewart_5 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tromp has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tromp has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
Murch has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Chris_Stewart_5 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
othe has quit [K-Lined]
fluffypony has quit [K-Lined]
nealsampat has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
Newyorkadam has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Murch has quit [Quit: Snoozing.]
nuncanada has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
Murch has joined #bitcoin-wizards
nuncanada has joined #bitcoin-wizards
zoomzoom has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tromp has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tromp has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
zoomzoom has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
Murch has quit [Quit: Snoozing.]
zoomzoom has joined #bitcoin-wizards
zoomzoom has quit [Client Quit]
legogris has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
legogris has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tromp has joined #bitcoin-wizards
nuncanada has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
tromp has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
jimmysong has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Krellan has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
Krellan has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tromp has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tromp has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
cryptojanitor has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
mnkk has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
BlueMatt has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
BlueMatt has joined #bitcoin-wizards
qawap has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
qawap has joined #bitcoin-wizards
qawap has quit [Changing host]
qawap has joined #bitcoin-wizards
meshcollider has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tromp has joined #bitcoin-wizards
jtimon has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
tromp has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
DrOlmer has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
Emcy has joined #bitcoin-wizards
AaronvanW has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tromp has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tromp has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
AaronvanW has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
Samdney has joined #bitcoin-wizards
thrmo_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
thrmo has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
arubi has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
arubi has joined #bitcoin-wizards
arubi has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
arubi has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tromp has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tromp has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
mr_burdell has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
mr_burdell has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tromp has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tromp has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
CubicEarths has joined #bitcoin-wizards
CubicEarths has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
CubicEarths has joined #bitcoin-wizards
CubicEarths has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
priidu has joined #bitcoin-wizards
priidu has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
nephyrin has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
nephyrin has joined #bitcoin-wizards
AaronvanW has joined #bitcoin-wizards
AaronvanW has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
tromp has joined #bitcoin-wizards
kenshi84 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
keymone has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
kenshi84 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
mnkk has joined #bitcoin-wizards
belcher_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
AaronvanW has joined #bitcoin-wizards
AaronvanW has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
tiagotrs has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tiagotrs has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tiagotrs has quit [Changing host]
Krellan has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
Krellan has joined #bitcoin-wizards
zoomzoom has joined #bitcoin-wizards
zoomzoom has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
meshcollider has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
zoomzoom has joined #bitcoin-wizards
zoomzoom has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<bsm1175321>
mmm yeah. Hashgraph appears to have gone off the deep end.
<bsm1175321>
In other news, I'm pretty sure that the kind of graph (braid) generated by blocks with multiple parents is O(n) to analyze, contrary to some statements made by Sompolimpsky recently. If true this would be awesome.
<bsm1175321>
In other words, analyze this kind of DAG is NOT an NP-complete problem.
<bsm1175321>
And all the people using arbitrary marking, scoring, voting rules to order the DAG don't need to do that. They just need to do a bit more work to understand it.
d9b4bef9 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
d9b4bef9 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
SopaXorzTaker has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Newyorkadam has quit [Quit: Newyorkadam]
Newyorkadam has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Newyorkadam has quit [Client Quit]
Newyorkadam has joined #bitcoin-wizards
zoomzoom has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tromp has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
AaronvanW has joined #bitcoin-wizards
SopaXorzTaker has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
AaronvanW has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
Newyorkadam has quit [Quit: Newyorkadam]
Guyver2 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
tromp has joined #bitcoin-wizards
zoomzoom has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
AaronvanW has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Newyorkadam has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Newyorkadam has quit [Client Quit]
belcher_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
tromp has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
nealsampat has joined #bitcoin-wizards
belcher_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
lmatteis has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
tromp has joined #bitcoin-wizards
zoomzoom has joined #bitcoin-wizards
nuncanada has joined #bitcoin-wizards
fluffypony_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
othe has joined #bitcoin-wizards
fluffypony_ is now known as fluffypony
fluffypony has quit [Changing host]
fluffypony has joined #bitcoin-wizards
cryptojanitor has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
tiagotrs has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
RegulatorsToMars has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Chris_Stewart_5 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
thrmo_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
<Taek>
Varunram: I will not be looking at anything hashgraph related due to its patents
<bsm1175321>
^^^ I second that.
zoomzoom has quit [Quit: Leaving...]
fluffypony has quit [Quit: peace out, A town]
fluffypony has joined #bitcoin-wizards
fluffypony has quit [Changing host]
fluffypony has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Chris_Stewart_5 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
SopaXorzTaker has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Guyver2 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
hk3380 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<hk3380>
Can LN or a 3rd-layer solution on top of LN make it such that transactions between clients and merchants are feeless?
brand0 has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
<bsm1175321>
hk3380: LN itself can be fee-less. Just make a payment channel directly to the merchant, or find a route that doesn't charge fees.
<hk3380>
bsm1175321: But you need to pay a fee to make a payment channel, no?
<sipa>
these are meaningless questions
<sipa>
fee is a an implementation detail
<bsm1175321>
Correct. But once the channels are open it can be fee-less, and channels can stay open indefinitely.
<sipa>
there are always costs involved
<bsm1175321>
Long term I agree with sipa -- feeless is a pipe dream, and people will recoup their costs through fees.
<sipa>
for example, the receiver takes a censorship risks if the buyer tries to get a previous state mined
<hk3380>
But doesn't Nano provide feeless payments for example?
<sipa>
furthermore, even the fees in transactions "can" be free - if you have a miner who wants to mine them
<sipa>
but someone is still paying for network infrastructure
<sipa>
fees are not what you should care about
<sipa>
costs are
<sipa>
if the costs are low, low fees will follow
<bsm1175321>
hk3380: you mean RaiBlocks? anything that claims to be feeless is hopelessly naive and should be ignored, because its creators are idiots.
brand0 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<hk3380>
But the costs for RaiBlocks seem to be low: just running a pruned full node to validate transactions no?
<hk3380>
I've been trying to figure out what can be wrong with RaiBlocks/Nano's model but I can't figure out?
<bsm1175321>
Oh god it's another DAG-thing...
<bsm1175321>
Anything that has zero fees can be shut down at near-zero cost to an attacker, by generating a large number of low-value, zero-fee transactions.
<hk3380>
But they have a small adjustable PoW to protect against this
<bsm1175321>
Then the value of the coin is the amount of "small adjustable PoW" used, because PoS systems have zero cost and zero value.
<hk3380>
Why zero value though?
<bsm1175321>
Because no one put any money into it.
<bsm1175321>
Buying a VIP ticket on your spreadsheet does not cause the *spreadsheet*itself* to have any value.
<hk3380>
I'm confused. If you can use their tech to transfer coins that have exchange rate value, does this not mean they have some value?
<bsm1175321>
No. When you buy something on an exchange, the dollars do not cease to exist or get transferred into the system. The remain outside the system in someone else's hands.
<bsm1175321>
PoS has zero net flow of value into the system, and remains a system of zero value. Then people speculate on top of that.
<bsm1175321>
By contrast, PoW systems have a net flow of real-world value into them by burning that real-world value (mining HW, electricity costs).
Chris_Stewart_5 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<hk3380>
Well you still use electricity/hw to host nodes and validate transactions, but indeed you pay less than what Bitcoin miners pay. Is this bad though? Why shouldn't a (d)PoS system work if it facilitates fast/feeless transactions of value
<bsm1175321>
hk3380: you're describing a database, where the cost of validating transactions is marginal compared to the size of the transaction itself. How would such a system ever achieve a value larger than its own marginal costs?
<bsm1175321>
s/size/cost/g
<sipa>
bsm1175321: i think you're missing the lack of trust
<sipa>
in a system with a particioant (or group thereof) who is trusted with censorshipship rights it is certainly possible to transact coins of higher value than validation costs
<sipa>
where is the link to the PoW criticism wroteup, andytoshi?
<hk3380>
bsm1175321: Not exactly sure what you mean by achieving a value larger than its cost. If the system allows merchants or trades in general to be faster and cheaper in terms of fee, isn't the value provided relative or intractable to calculate
<bsm1175321>
Trustless, BTF-databases are still valuable, don't get me wrong. But let's not fool ourselves into thinking it's "money". Such systems always have a counterparty risk in tying the database record to its external value. That's where your censorship comes in sipa. A censorship-resistant system which is not a digital bearer bond...
<bsm1175321>
*BFT
sipa has left #bitcoin-wizards [#bitcoin-wizards]
<hk3380>
sipa: do you think Nano is a useful product? I didn't get your position initally sorry
Krellan has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
Krellan has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<bsm1175321>
hk3380: best not to invest in things whose value is intractible to calculate. That's the realm of fiat currency issuers.
<Varunram>
hk3380: regarding no-fee stuff in Nano, its"fee less" because you validate other's transactions too, along with transmitting yours
<Varunram>
and they have some weird stuff with two chains, you can go through their stuff on the wiki
<hk3380>
bsm1175321: not really thinking about investing. I was thinking about its usefulness--I could see it being useful if it's really feeless and instant for merchants
<bsm1175321>
Nothing in the real world is fee-less. Everything has a cost.
Guyver2 has quit [Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)]
<hk3380>
Varunram: I think that's IOTA's approach no? Validate at least 2 other transactions to send yours. I think Nano just counts on people running nodes for no explicit reward other than making sure transactions are valid and the network functions
<Varunram>
hk3380: (maybe off-topic) Nano has two chains - a private one and a public one, but yeah, the "making sure transactions are valid and the network functions" part is the "fee" in some sense
<Varunram>
because you pay for the electricity and stuff
<hk3380>
Varunram: yeah I think that's why they call them feeless transactions rather than free transactions
<hk3380>
to make the distinction a bit explicit
cryptojanitor has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<hk3380>
i don't know about private/public chains. my understanding is that every user has their on blockchain (account-chain)
<hk3380>
and transactions are send/receive blocks on top of the sender/receiver blockchains
<hk3380>
"has their on" <- has their own*
rabidus has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
* Varunram
agrees silently
son0p_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Emcy has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
othe has quit [Quit: kthxbye]
Chris_Stewart_5 has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
othe has joined #bitcoin-wizards
AaronvanW has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
intcat has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
ghost43 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
ghost43 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
AaronvanW has joined #bitcoin-wizards
AaronvanW has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
AaronvanW has joined #bitcoin-wizards
intcat has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Emcy has joined #bitcoin-wizards
nuncanada has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
AaronvanW has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
Chris_Stewart_5 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Murch has joined #bitcoin-wizards
AaronvanW has joined #bitcoin-wizards
CubicEarths has joined #bitcoin-wizards
CheckDavid has joined #bitcoin-wizards
CubicEarths has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
SopaXorzTaker has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
mzfr has joined #bitcoin-wizards
mzfr has left #bitcoin-wizards ["Konversation terminated!"]
RegulatorsToMars is now known as thrmo
AaronvanW has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
jk has joined #bitcoin-wizards
AaronvanW has joined #bitcoin-wizards
jk is now known as Guest81539
Guest81539 has quit [Client Quit]
Aaronvan_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
AaronvanW has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
mn3monic has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
mn3monic has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Murch has quit [Quit: Snoozing.]
mn3monic has quit [Excess Flood]
mn3monic has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Krellan has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
Krellan has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Murch has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Aaronvan_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
AaronvanW has joined #bitcoin-wizards
satwo has joined #bitcoin-wizards
laurentmt has quit [Quit: laurentmt]
satwo has quit [Client Quit]
satwo has joined #bitcoin-wizards
AaronvanW has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
wxss has quit [Quit: leaving]
hk3380 has quit [Quit: Page closed]
Samdney has quit [Quit: Verlassend]
Emcy has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
dgenr8 has quit [Quit: Leaving]
CheckDavid has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
CubicEarths has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Emcy has joined #bitcoin-wizards
CubicEarths has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
CubicEarths has joined #bitcoin-wizards
r251d has quit [Quit: WeeChat 2.1]
CubicEarths has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
satwo has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
Chris_Stewart_5 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
d9b4bef9 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]