sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<bsm117532>
A braid (DAG) combined with mining into @lightning payment channels would solve the selfish mining problem, the orphan problem, and some of the unfortunate problems of @p2pool (like huge coinbases competing with the fees you could earn). New channel #braidpool for discussing this.
<bsm117532>
I've got the DAG pieces figured out, I could use some help with the payment channel side of the idea.
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<sarang>
What type of DAG consensus are you doing bsm117532?
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<kanzure>
bsm117532: would you need an n-member payment channel setup between all n participating miners?
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<bsm117532>
kanzure: yes. DAG header would have to contain a commitment to a set of payment channel transactions that become valid if the mined block becomes part of the main chain.
<bsm117532>
sarang: Consensus is the "cohorts" I've described previously, plus some new work for work-weighted ordering in sub-cohorts. I'll describe the latter publicly very soon...
<kanzure>
bsm117532: with payment channel construction, can do tiny miner payouts ya?
<bsm117532>
That's the idea
<bsm117532>
p2pool can do it too, at the expense of tiny payments consuming block space.
<bsm117532>
Moving that to a payment channel is an obvious win
<bsm117532>
Also, mining directly into payment channels could become a backbone of open payment channels for lightning users.
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<kanzure>
iirc the problem was that tiny payments in coinbases would be outcompeted by larger obligations, hence why many miners get stuck with worthless shares
<kanzure>
(small miners.. at least.)
<kanzure>
in non-p2pool context
<bsm117532>
can you elaborate on "outcompeted by larger obligations"?
<kanzure>
cpu miner might be owed a payment by a pool but they will never put in a 0.000001 BTC output into the coinbase
<kanzure>
(that would be a high payment for a modern cpu miner, but you get the idea.)
<bsm117532>
Agreed. Just didn't understand your phrasing.
<sarang>
bsm117532: will be interested to see the setup and security models... there have been many DAG-style proposals, but precious few with good models and proofs
<bsm117532>
sarang: in the context of a mining pool it's a lot simpler, because a block with multiple parents doesn't need a conflict-resolution rule. You just need to not punish orphans.
<bsm117532>
Work-weighting gives a conflict resolution rule though.
<bsm117532>
I've been harping that the work-weighting is pretty easy, but no one seems to have figured it out, so I'll write it up.
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<bsm117532>
All the people working on DAGs seem to come up with weird weighting and scoring algorithms that are totally gameable (because naming your parents has zero cost). They're totally ignoring decades of CS and math literature on graph theory.
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<fltrz>
I have a question about cryptography (not cryptocurrencies in specific). Actually the question is more about what the community (or alternatively prominent cryptographers) believes to be possible
<fltrz>
how widely accepted is Impagliazzo and Rudich's result that hash-based secret key agreement is impossible?
<fltrz>
is there a non-negligible fraction of the cryptographic community that still doesn't rule out hash-based secret key agreement? or do any prominent cryptographers refuse to rule this out?
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<maaku>
fltrz: genuine question, why does it matter?
<maaku>
science doesn't proceed by social consensus
<maaku>
being right or not is factually checkable
<fltrz>
it is relevant to orient a potential new result with respect to prior work, to introduce the reader
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<fltrz>
i.e. suppose I come to the conclusion that objects on which no force acts should actually not necessarily be static, but follow linear motion, its kind of useless to publish as Newton already pointed it out
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<fltrz>
so it is useful in science because scientific activity is inherently social in nature
<fltrz>
maaku, in theory it is factually checkable, in practice very few papers even in mathematics are formalized to a machine checkable format (say metamath)
<maaku>
factually checkable doesn't necessarily mean machine checkable. I mean if so inclined any cryptographer could go delve into the sub-field of hash-based key agreement scheme and decide for themselves
<maaku>
and that's kinda more what this channel is geared towards
<fltrz>
so there is a sub-field of hash-based key agreement schemes? if it exists it answers my question since then some cryptographers are still trying to come up with one
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<kanzure>
maaku: fltrz is trying to figure out if it's on-topic for him to talk about hash-based key agreement schemes in here. he is wondering if the impossibility statement was refuted, because he thinks he has a thing that could work, and he is confused about it.
<fltrz>
I also consider the possibility that the impossibility result is correct [in its claim that a black box reduction is impossible if one believes P!=NP], i.e. that hash-based secret key agreement schemes may be possible, but that they would need to be proven secure in a non black box fashion
<fltrz>
if this is the case, I wonder if the cryptographic community is still searching for such schemes, and if not, why not? too intimidated by the impossibility result?
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