sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<oleganza> andytoshi: thanks! that's the link i was looking for (http://archive.is/BgImB) !
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<rusty> aj: just replied to your crazy feebump idea with my own. Take that!
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<aj> rusty: oh, i was thinking just making all that witness data go into a single signature, like your varints
<rusty> aj: that needs a new kind of data, and I think everyone is still avoiding adding that.
<aj> rusty: ie, any random coin that you're happy to spend to fees and a change address
<rusty> aj: Oh, that's getting pretty obscene as a signature tho.
<aj> rusty: yeah; if it's just a relative offset back into the merkle tree it's not that bad, could be [3 txes: -5, -3, -1] rather than n lots of 32-byte txids
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<rusty> aj: prefer my solution still, I think it's sufficient to just say N previous txs. Though a bit more complex with block construction.
<aj> rusty: oh, with that requirement you'd just have a single small varint in the sighash then?
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<aj> rusty: having a "tx bundle" in the mempool might not be a nightmare for validation too
<rusty> aj: I wasn't putting it in the sighash, but yeah. Ofc, you need a new tx format flag to say 'here are the txids I'm committing to'.
<aj> rusty: block construction is /easy/ that way: you just check the set of them has a higher fee rate than the individual bits, and treat them as a single tx
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<rusty> aj: hmm, I guess so. The current algo uses a virtual feerate (ie. across children), so not sure if this could be similar or need something else.
<aj> rusty: so yeah, in conclusion, you lose: your idea is way less crazy than mine
<aj> rusty: (still pretty crazy though: you'd need some p2p magic to link the new tx against the old ones; validating blocks would need to traverse back over recent txids; gbt would need some tweaking; because of the p2p bit, wallets would need updates to be able to support it; and it needs a new sighash in order to work on arbitrary addresses)
<rusty> aj: we already have the flag byte, we just define a new bit.
<rusty> aj: validation would have to keep all txids in block, yes, but that's pretty simple.
<rusty> presume that the sigflag would be "append the last N txids to the normal stuff you'd hash to sign".
<aj> rusty: cached validation of the tx would still have to check all the txes were there in the right order too, but yeah, just-a-matter-of-code
<aj> rusty: define a new bit, and add in a byte/varint for "N", yeah
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<aj> rusty: (or define three bits, and limit it to a max of the last 7 transactions? technically N would give you N^2 hashing - 2nd transaction sets N=1, 3rd transaction sets N=2, etc. that won't scale for petabyte blocks ;))
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<rusty> aj: No, I really want the "slowmode batch" use case where someone pushes txs through on some guaranteed timeline. That might be hundreds of txs.
<aj> rusty: i suppose doing 500 txes as 72 batches of 7 with below market feerate, and a final CPFP of all 72 that actually makes stuff happen would be a bit wasteful
<rusty> aj: and fugly, too.
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<aj> rusty: would work better when incrementally adding transactions to the pool -- you bump one set of 7 and the final CPFP, rather than bumping a jumbo block of 500 txes
<aj> eh, not like a byte and ~64MB of hashing's going to hurt anyone
<rusty> 500 * 32 == 16k? Unless you rehash the entire tx, which nobody does because you need the txid as an index anyway.
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<aj> rusty: malicious block where every signature commits to every prior transaction in the block; 2000*2001/2*32B
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<rusty> aj: hmm, yeah, disallow overlap?
<aj> rusty: depends how hard it is to code?
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<aj> rusty: if you limited it to 7 you could just keep a cache of all of them as you went :)
<rusty> aj: AFAICT it's a single counter during validation; last tx signed by a SIGHASH_PREVTXIDS.
<aj> rusty: yeah
<rusty> aj: so, sighash idea needs including with the signature changes, which causes a logjam. Using an output script doesn't have that interconnect....
<aj> rusty: por que no los dos?
<rusty> aj: because we're already going to have a massive bikeshed over SIGHASH_NOINPUT and other crazy flags with Schnorr?
<aj> rusty: the p2p changes seem scarier to me than the sighash bit though
<aj> rusty: exactly, so the marginal cost approaches zero :)
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<rusty> aj: ha, no.
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<aj> rusty: if it were going to be a sighash flag, an OP_NOP4 implementation would be an excellent proof of concept, so seems a fine path forward whatever the outcome anyway
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