sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<bsm117532>
Of the recent flurry of signature aggregation work, which (if any) of it is usable with ECDSA?
<andytoshi>
none
<sipa>
none
<bsm117532>
Is there a simple way to understand why "none"?
<andytoshi>
all of it uses the linearity of schnorr signatures
<bsm117532>
mmm of course...
<bsm117532>
So when do we get Schnorr? ;-)
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<PaulTroon>
Bram Cohen claims he's going to write a BIP for BLS aggregate signatures too
<bsm117532>
On a tangential note...I noticed in @sipa's talk that he says any monotone boolean function can be done with schnorr aggregation. Does anyone know of any compiler which can convert an arbitrary monotone boolean function into a Bitcoin multisig-like script?
<sipa>
wow wow wow
<bsm117532>
Because I want to do this before we get Schnorr... ;-)
<sipa>
you're talking about 3 independent things
<andytoshi>
BLS doesn't stand for "boneh or linear or schnorr"?
<sipa>
schnorr threshold-like techniques can be used to build any monotone boolean function of participants into a single 1-key 1-sig signature
<sipa>
(which relies on schnorr's key aggregation property internally)
<bsm117532>
yes
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<bsm117532>
Then I should be able to write a bitcoin script using only IF/ELSE, OP_CHECKSIG, OP_VERIFY that is the same as that monotone boolean function, no?
<sipa>
bitcoin doesn't have schnorr signatures
<sipa>
and you don't need any of those
<sipa>
just checksig (with schnorr)
<sipa>
as i said: threshold signatures look like a single simple 1-key signature on chain
<bsm117532>
Well say I want a 4-of-4 or a 3-of-3 with some subset of keys shared, and use an ECDSA signature (so I can do it today)
<bsm117532>
I can achieve the same logical condition specified by the monotone boolean function...
<sipa>
i believe that is not generally true
<sipa>
and it's also unrelated to any research i've been talking about
<bsm117532>
@sipa that would be interesting. I'd bet it is. Script might be annoyingly large though...
<bsm117532>
@sipa yes this is an engineering question not a research question. Unless you think it's impossible...
<andytoshi>
mm, i think IF/ELSE/CHECKSIG are sufficient for any monotone functions. in principle
<sipa>
well i'm entirely uninterested in working on improving ecdsa :)
<sipa>
or application of it
<andytoshi>
you would get very large scripts if you did this naively
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<bsm117532>
@sipa can't blame you there. But I would have a set of transactions I can immediately aggregate when Schnorr launches... ;-)
<bsm117532>
andytoshi: most scripts are going to reduce to something simple that you can explain to a customer...4 of 4 except in case of nuclear war then it's 3 of 3...
<bsm117532>
andytoshi: I'd bet through the use of OP_DUP you could make the script not repeat any pubkeys...
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<bsm117532>
Though any m-of-n will have (m choose n) script branches...
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<andytoshi>
well, for m-of-n you'd want to ADD the results of CHECKSIG
<andytoshi>
and check that they add up to m
<sipa>
some policies can be written as a weighted threshold (where some keys count as more than others)
<sipa>
and as long as the weights per key are relatively small integers, you can use OP_ADD OP_DUP sequences to emulate them
<bsm117532>
Agreed to all...in any case a tool which generated schnorr aggegations and an equivalent ECDSA bitcoin script would be interesting... Just looked through the Ivy code, doesn't look like it can do anything like this.
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<oleganza>
hi, i'm looking for a link to an archived email from Claus Schnorr (ca. 1998) where he replies to someone discussing workaround for Schnorr's patents. Prof. Schnorr argues that ECDSA and whatever-DSA people are talking about all fall under his patent and therefore must obtain a license. I think i've seen the link to that email somewhere in the reddit comments, but cannot google it :-/ Does anyone have a clue where to look, or has a link maybe?
<oleganza>
(i think it was a snapshot from webarchive)
<oleganza>
s/webarchive/archive.org/
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<andytoshi>
i think it was on coderpunks aug 1998, but i'm having trouble finding the exact mail
<andytoshi>
i remember seeing it somewhere (here?) a year or two ago