#bitcoin-wizards on 2017-08-30 — irc logs at freenode.irclog.whitequark.org

2015-10-30 00:53 sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja

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00:30 <eddiewang> i would like to apologize if i've been connecting on and off recently... just got irssi and tmuxed it to my vps so shouldn't happen as much anymore

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06:48 <nopara73> Would you take a look at my fungibility proposal, ZeroLink: https://github.com/nopara73/ZeroLink/

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11:56 <bsm117532> nopara73: nice review of mixing ideas. So you're proposing a Chaumian coinjoin?

11:57 <bsm117532> Personally I think the practical value of mixing is little, unless you can make the anonymity set be the the entire output set (a la Zcash).

11:57 <bsm117532> Correlation analysis is still incredibly powerful when only some coins get mixed.

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12:29 <instagibbs> bsm117532, prob not true for at least current de-anon tech; every spend mixing with some other spender(and doing smart things like dumping change) would confuse these services greatly. Lots of things wallets can do to be more private

12:29 <instagibbs> fatalism results in additional privacy loss, in other words :)

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12:31 <bsm117532> And incomplete solutions (small anonymity sets) provide a false sense of security :-P

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12:41 <instagibbs> only if users act differently based on the knowledge of their wallet doing it. I don't think users actually care/understand...

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12:57 <bsm117532> instagibbs: agreed. That's why I think the anonymity set must be all transactions, by default, or privacy tricks such as coinjoins just provide a false sense of security. The battle to explain why users need privacy will be a losing one.

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13:06 <nopara73> What do you mean by correlation analysis?

13:07 <nopara73> @bsm117532 (1) Yes, I do. (2) You must use what you can for Bitcoin. You cannot create altcoins all the time. But I think the expected hundredish real anonymity set would be sufficient to say it's fully anonymous. Add to the rest of the proposals those are aimed to defend against network level privacy attacks in ZeroLink and you're practically more safe than an altcoin (see the popular flawed usage of Monero, through mymone

13:08 <bsm117532> nopara73: you got cut off at mymone....

13:09 <nopara73> @instagibbs In ZeroLink the users cannot use it in a flawed way, eg. no input joining allowed, which results in UX problems, what ZeroLink tries to mitigate with UX recommendations, too: https://github.com/nopara73/ZeroLink/#coin-selection

13:09 <nopara73> *mymonero web wallet

13:13 <bsm117532> nopara73: With insufficient mixing, a correlation analysis is still useful, and there have been reports that the NSA can still de-anonymize mixed transactions with very high accuracy.

13:13 <bsm117532> Hey this is pretty interesting https://www.coursera.org/learn/cryptocurrency/lecture/WAiaS/mixing

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13:31 <nopara73> @bsm117532 Agree, high liquidity must be achieved over time. There is no way around that.

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13:33 <nopara73> @bsm117532 I saw that lecture, it's great. If I remember well he's missing out private transaction retrieval and he's proposing an improvement upon centralized traditional mixers, how they should conform with each other, but the mixer can still link together in his proposal.

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15:02 <kanzure> why are there no linebreaks in the lecture transcript for https://www.coursera.org/learn/cryptocurrency/lecture/WAiaS/mixing

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