sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<praxeology1>
A hash tree structure created in the background for a periodic utxo snapshots... could use the same method of hashing as the rolling add/subtractable hash... for each of its nodes... so its root hash would be equal to the rolling hash. Then we just need to agree on the order of adding to the tree and number of children per node... in order for people to be able to download from multiple sources
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<gmaxwell>
that makes no sense.
<gmaxwell>
you basically destroy the value of he rolling hash that way.
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<gmaxwell>
the rolling hash doesn't need to be anything but a rolling hash. you can download from multiple sources already.
<gmaxwell>
by using implementation specific commitments.
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<praxeology1>
When you download a piece, how do you know whether you are making progress towards a rolling hash, until you are done?
<praxeology1>
Maybe I was thinking it would be easier than it actually would be to make this tree structure. With the rolling hash functions suggested... does ((A+B)+C)+D equal (A+B) + (C+D)?
<gmaxwell>
with the implementation specific commitment information.
<praxeology1>
Wouldn't what you are suggesting result in a completely different hash for the snapshot (for synchronization purposes) than the utxo rolling hash?
<praxeology1>
Assuming your answer is yes, sure, that would still work.
<gmaxwell>
the distinction is that it doesn't matter how long it takes to compute the hashes used in fetching because they're only computed for authoring new versions, and they're implementation specific, so it doesn't matter that they've made the encoding and ordering normative.
<wallet42>
I've been recently thinking about roll-over transaction fees. has anyone done some research into this direction? I like to think of money that _actually_ spent on transaction fees to use a block chain's ability to reassign value from one public key to another as a metric for real usage (compared to speculative only usage by custodial wallets in exchanges volume). The problem is, once this metric is being
<wallet42>
used by others its also pretty easy to game by a miner. They just create fake transactions into their own blocks with high fees, they wont risk losing anything since they are mining their own transactions.
<wallet42>
the idea would be to have a softfork which forces miners to only collect like 1/6th of the current block's transactions fees and issue 5/6th to a second, OP_TRUE output, in the coinbase.
<wallet42>
the coins are still locked in there for 120 blocks but the first miner to find the block then, can collect those
<gmaxwell>
wallet42: those schemes strongly incentivize fees to move out of band.
<gmaxwell>
e.g. miners announce that they'll accept fees paid to outputs with the correct horse stapler battery key, and the 'fee' of the transaction is set to zero.
<gmaxwell>
so then all the fee goes to the miner who made the block, and none rolls forward.
<wallet42>
but there would still be competition. if your out of band fee is higher than the public one, i will chose the public route
<gmaxwell>
as an aside, your soffork is somewhat impeded by the fact that that coinbase isn't spendable for 100 blocks, ideally you'd like the next block to be able to spend it.
<gmaxwell>
wallet42: the out of band one would always be lower, because all the fees go to me.
<gmaxwell>
(if I'm a miner)
<gmaxwell>
if it would take a fee of 1 to mine your transaction where I only get a sixth... then I'd accept a transaction with a fee of one sixth via an OOB mechenism where I get all of it.
<wallet42>
oh now i see...
<wallet42>
can we ban transactions that don't pay a fee?
<gmaxwell>
no, because then I make the fee 1 satoshi, and then they "pay a fee", but not really.
<gmaxwell>
Otherwise it introduces an economic parameter into the system (by that I means some varable that 'knows' the value of a bitcoin)
<wallet42>
yeah... that would be a dangerous road to go down
<praxeology1>
wallet42: you could create an altcoin where some amount of coin burn is required... but who would use that vs a more efficient competing distributed currency?
<wallet42>
btw do we have any metrics on how many transactions are "new"? e.g. haven't been seen in the mempool by long running nodes before making it into a block?
<wallet42>
praxeology1: I don't think people want another altcoin /s
<praxeology1>
"As the update operations are also associative, H(a)+H(b)+H(c)+H(d) can in fact be computed as (H(a)+H(b)) + (H(c)+H(d))." Well, there is the answer to my above question of whether such a hash tree would be feasible, that computes to the same hash as the rolling hash.
<praxeology1>
gmaxwell: sorry, I don't follow how making the "implementation specific "commitments"" cannot use the same hashing function as the rolling hash for parallelized/distributed downloading of pieces. And I don't see how such "destroys" the value of the rolling hash. I'm not implying that such a structure must be made immediately... can be made in the background and non-available until complete.
<praxeology1>
Unless of course there is significant performance difference between the rolling hash function and something like plain old SHA256
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<sipa>
praxeology1: the rolling hash functions are many times slower
<gmaxwell>
praxeology1: if you combine the two you get the disadvantages of both.
<gmaxwell>
praxeology1: the result is no longer rolling, it's no longer implementation independant, and it's no longer fast like sha2.
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<bsm117532>
"constructing time-lock puzzles with a “gap” between the work of the puzzle generator and the parallel time of the solver cannot be done in the random-oracle model."
<bsm117532>
I'm looking for a way to measure time using a sequential operation (like a Rivest et al timelock) that does not have the trusted setup requirement and can be verified faster than it can be generated.
<bsm117532>
Just in case anyone has any ideas...
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<kanzure>
what is a verification of a timeloc?
<kanzure>
timelock?
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<bsm117532>
kanzure: Consider if someone gave you N=p*q as the product of two primes, which you will compute 2^2^t mod N by sequential squaring. I'm interested in the value t as a measurement of how long a computation took (e.g. a highly-parallelizable PoW computation)
<bsm117532>
e.g. as a replacement for the timestamp field in a Bitcoin block header, which can be easily falsified and used in timewarp attacks. I want a direct proof of elapsed time instead.
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<bsm117532>
So, this is not a timelock, but uses the same algorithm for a different purpose...
<gmaxwell>
bsm117532: using P Q you know the group order do you can just reduce mod that and compute it directly. :P
<bsm117532>
gmaxwell: yes that is how you verify the "proof of time" if you know P and Q. The idea is that the person proving elapsed time does not know P and Q.
<bsm117532>
So I'd prefer another algorithm that doesn't have this flaw...
<bsm117532>
Otherwise you might invent some algorithm where a miner reveals P and Q to collect his coinbase and publishes N for the next miner...but I can see a lot of ways to cheat such a system.
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<Taek>
mining pools that make out-of-band deals for fee revenue don't have to disclose those deals to their miners, allowing them to hide revenue and take larger fees
<gmaxwell>
yup
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