sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<fluffypony>
"A Solution of the P versus NP Problem"
<fluffypony>
"Berg and Ulfberg and Amano and Maruoka have used CNF-DNF-approximators to prove exponential lower bounds for the monotone network complexity of the clique function and of Andreev's function. We show that these approximators can be used to prove the same lower bound for their non-monotone network complexity. This implies P not equal NP."
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<IniGit>
I'm currently learning the basics of cryptography. As far as I understand a public key is the product of two primes. But how can I choose two primes myself that are not already in a database? I mean how to I know if the gigantic number that I choose is prime? I want to create my own public private key pair myself, so I want to use the windows random number library for that, but I do
<IniGit>
can somebody help me here to grasp that?
<IniGit>
not the questions that I meantioned.
<IniGit>
I'm currently learning the basics of cryptography. As far as I understand a public key is the product of two primes. But how can I choose two primes myself that are not already in a database? I mean how to I know if the gigantic number that I choose is prime? I want to create my own public private key pair myself, so I want to use the windows random number library for that, but I do
<IniGit>
can somebody help me here to grasp that?
<IniGit>
not the questions that I meantioned.
<IniGit>
hi :)
<kanzure>
use a library that implements the primitives you want (maybe crypto++). then read the source code.
<IniGit>
I want to learn the basics before I dig into the souce code via NBitcoin. Can you maybe explain it to me without code like a documentation?
<IniGit>
would be so nice
<kanzure>
so you mean RSA?
<kanzure>
or bitcoin ECDSA things?
<IniGit>
I tell you what my current state of knowledge is
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<IniGit>
public key is the product of two primes
<IniGit>
Now in order to create an asymetric keypair I have to choose two prime numbers
<IniGit>
But Obviously I cannot choose two numbers from that the product is already in a database
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<IniGit>
So how do I pick two gigantic prime numbers from which the product is not already in a database. As far as I know it is not easy to compute if a number is prime if the number is gigantic
<adlai>
IniGit: right away i spot a misconception: a public key is not the product of two primes in any cryptosystem of which i'm aware
<adlai>
in RSA, your public key includes a composite number p*q, where p and q are kept secret; but the public key includes an exponent too
<adlai>
people spew falsehood everywhere. fwiw, this might not be the right place for crypto 101
<kanzure>
there is also ##crypto
<IniGit>
How would you describe the process of generating your own keypair like when you write you own program, what would the summary look like
<IniGit>
the documentation summary
<IniGit>
or should I ask in #crypto ?
<waxwing>
IniGit: ## <- 2
<IniGit>
ok
<IniGit>
So I should ask there instead of here?
<waxwing>
it'd be more on topic there for sure. there are people there that certainly can easily answer beginner Qs, whether they will or not, i couldn't say. you may get lucky :)
<waxwing>
it's really quite off topic here.
<IniGit>
ok
<IniGit>
thank you I'll ask there
<kanzure>
better to use highly-validated implementations and learn from them. too many edge cases otherwise.
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<cottenio>
*waves*
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<musalbas>
"the paper claims to give an exponential circuit lower bound for Andreev’s function, but that function as defined in Section 7 of the paper seems clearly to have a polynomial-size circuit, based on polynomial interpolation (thanks to Luca Trevisan for this observation). So I don’t see how this can possibly stand"--http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/
<musalbas>
re: p!=np paper
<kanzure>
"Luca Trevisan Andreev's function, which is claimed to have superpolynomial circuit complexity (abstract, then section 7), is just univariate polynomial interpolation in a finite field, which, if I am not missing something, is solvable by Gaussian elimination"
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<kanzure>
oh. bad formatting, i see.
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<cottenio>
Are there any blockchains that don't rely on timestamps in the same way Bitcoin does for each block?
<andytoshi>
cottenio: anything that avoids proof-of-work, so all the developer-signed-blocks ones (e.g. peercoin). but i don't think there are any interesting examples
<cottenio>
I was looking at proof-of-stake and trying to find any examples where timestamping wasn't necessary by design, but wasn't a case of developer (or centrally) signed blocks like you mentioned
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<cottenio>
waxwing: thank you, I'll read through that
<waxwing>
cottenio: oh, it wasn't in reference to your discussion, just of general interest here (potentially)
<cottenio>
oh!
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<gmaxwell>
I suspect many have seen it already, but blockstream has announced that we're doing Bitcoin over Satellite (and have it running already) covering 2/3 of the populated parts of the earth.
<gmaxwell>
Anyone can recieve it with a $100-ish in reciever hardware. (Direct TV dish + rtl-sdr dongle, and some fits and fittings)
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<nsh>
might try that!
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<musalbas>
one thing unclear to me from the github and faq is how much block history is transmitted. does it only transmit latest blocks and assume that receiving nodes are already bootstrapped with the previous blocks?
<andytoshi>
+1, i've been looking for this
<fluffypony>
even if it's only new blocks that's fine, you're still protected from an isolation attack
<waxwing>
unless the satellite is the one isolating you? :)
<fluffypony>
(necessary in highly adversarial environments, or operating in an oppressive regime)
<musalbas>
(and what if nodes go offline? - when I was in Iraq in early 2000s we only had electricity a few hours a day)
<sipa>
i believe the last 24 hours worth of blocks are being submitted
<gmaxwell>
musalbas: At the moment it's only new blocks, though we're planning on supporting several forms of catchup
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<fluffypony>
gmaxwell: what's the expected max bandwidth you'll be able to tap into, as a matter of interest?
<gmaxwell>
fluffypony: We aren't actually sure of the maximum yet. Our design target was 64kbit/sec. We're currently running at somewhat higher than that. We need feedback from people in more marginal reception areas to tune it.
<mmeijeri>
@waxwing: downloading the block headers from other sources doesn't take a lot of bandwidth and allows you to detect if the satellite is isolating you
<fluffypony>
nice
<gmaxwell>
musalbas: so for example, we'll retransmit the blocks with a one day delay, and after there is a widely deployed sync from utxo mechenism in bitcoin, also transmit data for that.
<waxwing>
mmeijeri: yah, i guess i was imagining someone in the desert or something like that :)
<mmeijeri>
fountain codes should help with IBD. patented though
<gmaxwell>
Yes, if you have other connectivity but which is expensive and/or unreliable, you can connect to both; and then only download blocks from the other links if there is a longer chain that the satellite isn't telling you about.
<gmaxwell>
mmeijeri: there are unpatented alternatives. Also classical fountain codes don't work when the data is expanding.
<gmaxwell>
mmeijeri: (and we already use something which is behaves like a fountain code for relaying blocks on the sat (fibre protocol))
<fluffypony>
also, if we behave, it provides a tool that others can build on top of
<fluffypony>
"Idea: federation embeds every 30th XMR block hash in a BTC TX (WU/data hash method) for out-of-band validation via @Blockstream Satellite:)"
<mmeijeri>
It would be nice to combine this with meshnets. Meshnets + LN are already a promising combination, this seems like a natural add-on.
<gmaxwell>
fluffypony: we're also, seperately from bitcoin, planning on supporting a micropayment funded arbritary message channel.
<fluffypony>
awesome
<mmeijeri>
Also, I wonder what it would cost to get a license for a local radio station
<mmeijeri>
or what it would cost to have an existing operator run an additional blockchain broadcasting channel
<fluffypony>
so could just abuse that for block header broadcast
<fluffypony>
mmeijeri: Bitcoin radio has already been done, and was a great success
<fluffypony>
we discussed it here just recently iirc
<andytoshi>
fluffypony: if you're just embedding hashes this can be done freely and undetectably with sign-to-contract. you can also encrypt small amounts of data to yourself, though i don't know how to encrypt to other people without needing to use extra space
<fluffypony>
"Data Insertion in Bitcoin's Blockchain"
<musalbas>
How about distributing the Bitcoin blockchain through 10-page QR codes in remote local newspapers
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<grubles>
cheap USB devices would be better
<andytoshi>
fluffypony: unfortunately that paper seems confused on several points: the history of OP_RETURN, on all validators needing to track UTXOs, on unspent OP_RETURN outputs somehow being more prunable than spent ones
<sipa>
gmaxwell: a short survey indicates that the blockchain size of all spent OP_RETURNs is negligable... which is far better than the average size of unspent ones!
<sipa>
*negligible
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<arubi>
maybe they're parsing op_return in unexecuted branches?
<andytoshi>
gmaxwell: sorry, i worded that badly
<andytoshi>
gmaxwell: the paper talks about OP_RETURN outputs being prunable, and suggests using multisig outputs where some keys are dummies, to get spendable outputs that still contain garbage, to avoid the risk of nodes deleting them
<gmaxwell>
andytoshi: more reasons to change to an encrypted txout database. :(
<andytoshi>
well, ultimately the nodes would be forced to serve up the unencrypted data when helping others sync the chain, so the goal of "free" data storage is still attained
<gmaxwell>
andytoshi: well we have no "fetch me this TX out" interface, among other reasons, to prevent that sort of thing.
<gmaxwell>
And making the txoutset (replace the chainstate key/value store with key=H(key), value=enc(value,h2(key))) ... pretty strongly abstructs that sort of thing.
<andytoshi>
ok, maybe i'm unfamiliar on how this data-storage stuff actually is used
<andytoshi>
i would assume these services are running archival nodes themselves (which ofc they can locally "gettxout" rpc call to)
<gmaxwell>
sure, and if you do that you didn't gain anything over opreturn.
<andytoshi>
right, so as a secondary thing i think this "op_return outptus might get pruned" commentary is just confused and doesn't actually affect anybody
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<oleganza>
gmaxwell: you mean, pubkey encryption to demonstrate that the key is not a dummy?
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