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<kanzure>
for verifying inclusion and merkle tree updates, you don't need snarks. which particular consensus rules do we absolutely presently need a snark for?
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<greattobegood>
I have a question--one of the major risks of increasing blocksize is that it may decrease the number of full nodes because it increases costs on full node operators. Is there no possible mechanism to incentivize full node operators to help keep the network secure? Miners get incentivized to secure the network, but since full nodes are important as well, why can't we find a way to incentivize them?
<greattobegood>
I'm guessing one of the reasons is that it's hard to prove that you are actually running an honest full node?
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<kanzure>
you could use a snark, but who is going to pay the nodes precisely? it would be better to do snarks embedded in bitcoin transactions, and soft-fork in a rule that excludes all other transactions.
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<kanzure>
for small value schnorr P2PK (not P2PKH) utxos, where nValue < fee rate of even a single signature, it would be interesting to introdue a consensus rule for an extension block where miners can "sweep" all small value utxos into a single schnorr multisig pool. next, all the previous utxos would be marked as burned.
<kanzure>
this would be useful if there are ever periods where transaction fees are persistently high for very long periods of time
<kanzure>
*introduce
<kanzure>
the consensus rule would make the "sweep" implicit, such that no additional blockchain data is written (or a very tiny amount of data is written-- certainly not any signatures though)
<kanzure>
the trouble with this is that it would be difficult for all the "sweep" users to find each other and communicate with each other to open up new lightning channels or otherwise agree on giant transaction signatures.
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<kanzure>
jl2012 points out he had an old OP_COPY proposal for something similar, and also a more recent proposal using signature aggregation as long as you are okay with encouraging address reuse (so the utxo aggregation would only be for a single address utxo) also possibly involving a message that the user publishes with a single fee, to aggregate 10k utxos or something (which still requires a fee,...
<kanzure>
... but it's less fee than paying for the bytes to spend all those utxos, ouch)
<jl2012>
signature aggregation does not require address reuse
<jl2012>
i mean schnorr signature aggregation
<kanzure>
address reuse was explicitly for a rule like "only aggregate outputs from the same address" i think, right?
<kanzure>
*involving the same address
<jl2012>
yes
<jl2012>
that effectively turns Bitcoin into a balance-based system, instead of UTXO system
<kanzure>
only balanced-based for small utxos, i think?
<jl2012>
while is still UTXOs in the backend
<jl2012>
well, it could be any amount
<jl2012>
but the balance has to be deep enough (100 blocks) in the chain, otherwise a reorg will make the tx invalid
<kanzure>
yes this would probably be for super old utxos only
<jl2012>
i think 100 blocks is fine, same security assumption as coinbase UTXOs
<kanzure>
you also have to wait long enough to see whether the fee is permanently high
<kanzure>
(for the version of the idea using my automatic consensus rule )
<jl2012>
either one requires a hardfork or extension block
<kanzure>
in the case of the extension block, where do the new coins come from?
<jl2012>
the UTXOs being burnt in the main chain
<jl2012>
but that's not the usual definition of extension block......the coins can't be sent back to the main chain
<kanzure>
yes. the coins are stuck.
<jl2012>
so that requires hardfork
<kanzure>
extension block coins that can't be transported back, are still more valuable than unspendable mainchain utxos :)
<jl2012>
that's not extension block. Only 1-way peg sidechain
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<kanzure>
some of the coins can be spent in the other direction, i think, just not all of them
<kanzure>
depends on taint
<kanzure>
strangely, i think there could be eventual consensus around a long-term 'aggregate all the small utxos' hard-fork. it would just take approximately forever.
<jl2012>
you can't have very efficient aggregate without address reuse
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<kanzure>
jl2012: can you show me?
<jl2012>
if all UTXO belongs to different address, every outpoint (or address) in the aggregation must be listed
<jl2012>
it's O(n) , n is the number of addresses
<jl2012>
only with address reuse, it could be somehow O(1)
<kanzure>
why must tehy all be listed?
<kanzure>
implicit.
<kanzure>
ok i guess even an implicit list can be inefficient. fine.
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