sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<nicolagreco>
where should I go to ask SNARK questions?
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<CrazyLoaf>
zcrash channel :D
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<fluffypony>
#rekt
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<nsh>
nicolagreco, here's good for SNARK questions
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<nsh>
or maybe some crypto stack exchange or just email one of researchers involved if it's a question worth their eyes
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<Chris_Stewart_5>
So i'm reading BIP146 right now, and I don't understand why 'the relevant signature must be an empty byte array' How does this introduce malleability?
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<Chris_Stewart_5>
So we can't push OP_FALSE onto the stack unless we were evaluating an empty signature?
<Chris_Stewart_5>
this is wrt to NULLFAIL
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<instagibbs>
Chris_Stewart_5, #bitcoin-core-dev
<instagibbs>
or #bitcoin
<Chris_Stewart_5>
Oh, oops
<instagibbs>
:)
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<bsm1175321>
I was thinking again this morning about a DAG/braid combined with Mimblewimble, after we had a nice journal club yesterday on this paper: https://eprint.iacr.org/2016/871.pdf ["Blockchain-Free Cryptocurrencies"]
<bsm1175321>
I think the combination might actually be workable. The issue is that a single double-spend "poisons" all the other transactions it is coinjoined with.
<bsm1175321>
So a single double-spend causes an entire group of unrelated transactions to be discarded.
<bsm1175321>
However, it's straightforward for miners to back-out the double-spend, and create a new block that excludes it (as long as they don't discard transactions after they're mimblewimbled-up)
<bsm1175321>
So miners would need to keep a backlog of previously seen transactions, and the mechanism for resolving double-spends would have to be markedly different from Bitcoin's.
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<bsm1175321>
Is there any work out there as regards other forms of coinjoins and double-spending? Any form of coinjoin essentially has this problem.
<bsm1175321>
You could attack a coinjoin by contributing to it, and then double-spending your contribution.
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<bsm1175321>
which just reminded me why I don't read Reddit...
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<waxwing>
there is a scenario in JM in which double spends occur naturally; a participant does not consider a utxo "used" until he sees the new join tx on the network, if there is a propagation delay he will happily keep reusing the utxo in new joins (otherwise DOS). it seems to be very rare (as you'd expect). it could also happen due to people doing weird things (custom code for example)
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<bsm1175321>
I fear that this tactic could be used as an attack to effectively neuter coinjoins -- preventing them from working most of the time.
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<waxwing>
but if there's a double spend, one goes through
<bsm1175321>
By submitting such a double-spend, I have some probability to prevent the coinjoin from going through.
<waxwing>
we always just looked at it as, well, you're in a race with other customers to get your join to go through. if someone wants to attack the system by providing income for makers they are just going to incentivize more makers.
<waxwing>
i'm not saying the observation is nothing, just, well, not really sure of its status compared with other potential dos vectors
<bsm1175321>
It's not DOS, it's preventing the coinjoin from working. (maybe that's what you mean there...) If I create *many* double-spends and submit half to the coinjoin, I can with good probability prevent the coinjoin from getting mined.
<bsm1175321>
And there are certainly actors that want to prevent anonymization...
<waxwing>
oh i misunderstood, you're talking about double spends as inputs?
<bsm1175321>
Yes, one side of the doublespend is *in* the coinjoin.
<waxwing>
we don't allow unconfirmed inputs
<bsm1175321>
What does that mean? I'm confused.
<waxwing>
sorry, my confusion, it's dinner time here :)
<waxwing>
i had in mind multiple coinjoins as double spends, you have in mind 1 coinjoin and 1(+) other non-cjs
<waxwing>
in that case, my economic argument doesn't apply.
* bsm1175321
goes to read about JoinMarket
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<waxwing>
best summary of current situation is that, Takers/consumers need to provide commitments which rate limit snooping or attacking behaviour, but on Maker side it's still possible to fail-to-complete as a DOS currently in various ways.
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<waxwing>
bsm117532: any chance that meetup will be recorded? i remember in the old days some of those meetings were, but haven't seen any last couple of years
<waxwing>
pretty good list on that page. only one i can think of that isn't mentioned is stealth addresses. as has become standard coinshuffle is listed as separate from coinjoin, which i think is wrong, but at some point i'll give up saying that :)
<waxwing>
would love to see someone try to do tumblebit IRL as a standalone tumble (it's listed under payment channels there which is right ofc but the simpler classic tumble is kind of right there ready to use. more or less i think)
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<bsm1175321>
We don't plan on recording. Some people in this space like their privacy, and this is a debate/discussion which will bounce around the room.
<bsm1175321>
Would be awesome if we could get some implementors of the referenced protocols to join
<waxwing>
understood
<waxwing>
i was vaguely musing the other day how it would be nice to have some kind of fungibility conference, mainly because i had in mind exactly that kind of bewilderingly long list. it's such a huge topic though.
<bsm1175321>
It's developing rapidly. I expect we'll soon have multiple good options with better fungibility and privacy than bitcoin has now.