sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<maaku>
cjd: unlikely. blockchains don't have an army or a navy
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<aj>
maaku: i notice you don't deny there being a blockchain air force or space program.
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<maaku>
aj: naturally
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<juscamarena>
You won't need a standing army with payable killer robots for hire. :-)
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<cryptotalk_>
Hello
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<cryptotalk_>
who is thinks bitcoin will rocket to above $1000?
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<cjd>
I guess there is not much thinking along this line but it is my claim that you become a State once you can make a decision amongst a group of people and then *enforce* consensus (even amongst those who disagree).
<cjd>
Because with that capability, you can agree to issue money if you want, agree to provide identity, collect taxes and if you want raise and keep an army.
<cjd>
By this definition religious cults are state-like entities but corporations fall short because they are utterly dependent upon their parent state.
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<nsh>
heh
<nsh>
(the state is defined by violence, explicitly or implicitly. code consensus is a transcendence of the requirement to predicate order on potential violence)
<nsh>
(this is a pretty important development in human civilisation)
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<waxwing>
nsh: the PoW signal is an important piece of the puzzle though.
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<nsh>
PoW provides the pulse everyone [ideally] has a finger on
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<maaku>
ansuz: seriously?
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<waxwing>
gutter journalism as usual. that's not what she said, i listened to it this morning. also 'mixers and tumblers don't work' massive sub-heading is wrong, she clearly stated that since 2013 they have greatly improved (not that i'm recommending centralized tumblers!).
<uiuc-slack1>
<amiller> "suggesting laws should be changed to hold bitcoin developers accountable" this doesn't seem to be present anywhere in the article at all
<waxwing>
amiller: ah well done, you took one for the team and actually read it :) i guess i should apologise if the article doesn't actually say that.
<uiuc-slack1>
<amiller> she says "if we could hold the developers of these technologies accountable [it would be] counter to the legal system" and that in terms of changing the laws, "she was not saying so or otherwise"
<waxwing>
there was a lot of "blockchain all the things" in that interview too, "encrypted medical records on the blockchain". sigh.
<uiuc-slack1>
<amiller> my favorite quote from it: "The lecturer in digital currencies, however, was unable to provide other unrelated examples of blockchain’s use when asked, falling back to a similar category instead, medical records."
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<ansuz>
maaku: that's the only way to respond to these people, I think
<ansuz>
"yea, hold the btc devs accountable!!!"
<ansuz>
"and the mexicans too!"
<ansuz>
anyway
<ansuz>
I heard this was a channel for math
<maaku>
Well given that such a law change would make a number of people in this channel (myself included) criminally liable for the work that they do, I considered it relevant.
<maaku>
And no laughing matter either.
<JackH>
prosecuted for writing code, that goes against every principle of the modern world
<maaku>
amiller: I generally read articles before posting them. It is the paragraph that starts with "The federal prosecutor wondered whether the law should be changed..."
<waxwing>
perhaps it's going to be crypto wars 3. (but, again, if you listen to the interview, she really didn't say that).
<maaku>
JackH: have you been living under a rock the last 30 years?
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<JackH>
there is a difference here. Intentionally writing malicious code AND utilizing said code to maliciously force access to what is possibly a closed ecosystem is much different
<maaku>
JackH: google "crypto war"
<maaku>
then maybe follow up with "DCMA"
<waxwing>
DMCA
<maaku>
ty
<JackH>
that is geared towards encryption rather than method
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<uiuc-slack1>
<amiller> maaku, ok, but it is like she said "i wonder if X..... and conclude no"
<uiuc-slack1>
<amiller> or "i wonder if X, and do not conclude one way or the other"
<uiuc-slack1>
<amiller> i guess that is distilled down to just disagreeing over the strength of the word "suggesting" but i was confused at first. anyway didn't mean to say you didn't read it, waxwin brought that ;P
<cjd>
> but even if we could hold the developers of these technologies accountable,” the federal prosecutor continued, that would be “counter to the legal system.”
<cjd>
that statement is in agreement with everything I know about law. If you're just developing software and you don't have intent to cause harm, you're really out of reach. Which creates a connundrum for authorities because they simply have no legal system to get authority over distributed systems
<cjd>
AFAICT the closest thing they have to shutter a distributed system is the body of law regarding cult religions and even that is a very difficult subject.
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<waxwing>
cjd: what about crypto wars 1, iirc they got quite a long way trying to argue that software was munitions
<cjd>
They classified crypto as a munition for export purposes but they were not thinking much about Open Source software. It was Daniel Bernstein and Phil Zimmerman who broke the blockade by making snuffle (trivial crypto, source published on usenet) and PGP (published as a book) which tested the question of software as speech, govt backed down.
<cjd>
but they were not persecuting developers, they were persecuting people who exported (they imagined this to mean selling commercial hardware and software products) to foreign customers.
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<maaku>
amiller: maybe the actual interview will shed some clarity, but it seemed more like "let me float the idea X to see what kind of reaction we get"
<maaku>
cjd: Phil Zimmerman was subject to a 3 year federal investigation, although it became a political football and no charges were brought
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<nsh>
i don't think the DOJ is allowed to levy any new charges against me, so i'll take commit bit on all the heavy cryptomunitions as required
<nsh>
no biggie
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<kanzure>
nsh: as not-your-lawyer i would advise you to not make comment on.. eh nevermind, sky's the limit.
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<belcher>
didnt the xkcd author say we should've argued that crypto is munitions and is therefore protected by the 2nd amendment
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<instagibbs>
belcher has to be considered in common usage and that's hard to argue with PGP
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