<kristianpaul> http://hackable-devices.org/shop/product/nanonote <- Out of stock  :o
<wolfspraul> yeah well :-)
<wolfspraul> kristianpaul: thanks for the heads up
<kristianpaul> founded just for curiosity i was checking another product..
<wolfspraul> maybe one day I setup a real reseller contract
<wolfspraul> that way we either have active resellers that help pull in a joint direction, or we can focus on a good online shop and direct sales
<wolfspraul> also I should do more to setup affiliate programs
<wolfspraul> that way I remain in control of the quality of service, and enlist others to help me attract people
<wolfspraul> so much good work :-)
<stefan_schmidt> wpwrak: did you ever try recvfrom on a ieee802154 socket?
<stefan_schmidt> wpwrak: I only get garbage in the sockaddr strcut
<stefan_schmidt> struct
<stefan_schmidt> Wondering if this is not supported by the stack at all
<wpwrak> all i tried is in dirtpan :) so no, just read, no recvfrom
<wpwrak> but you can find out what's happening - you have the source :)
<stefan_schmidt> wpwrak: sure, doing that right after lunch. Just thought you might have been hit be this as well.
<wpwrak> stefan_schmidt: naw, i take care to avoid looking for problems. they find me easily enough on their own ;-)
<stefan_schmidt> wpwrak: heh
<wolfspraul> wpwrak: if we wanted to integrate ben-wpan on a one-piece Ya NanoNote pcb, how much trouble would we have to expect from the pcb antenna?
<wolfspraul> if the cpu is a 4760, would you even wire it up to an SDIO port, or would you then opt for another connection to the cpu instead? (separate question)
<mth> if it doesn't use the SDIO protocol, only the SDIO pins, then any group of unused GPIO pins would work, right?
<stefan_schmidt> wolfspraul: I would expect it should go to the SPI hw controller.
<stefan_schmidt> wolfspraul: If I got it right that one is used for the LCD right now while for that one GPIOs would be fine
<stefan_schmidt> wolfspraul: at least thats how I understand it
<wolfspraul> ok, gpios for the lcd and spi hw controller for the atrf
<stefan_schmidt> wolfspraul: yup
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: (pcb antenna) i think as long as you can find a good spot for it, it shouldn't be much trouble. finding a good spot may be tricky, though. it should be relatively free-standing (so, left/right/top edge of display), and unobstructed around the meander
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: (ant) i think the antenna's ground area could safely be covered by, say, the LCM, though. in fact, this should improve antenna performance.
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: (ant) one thing to consider would be to add a switch for antenna diversity. that way, there could be one on the right and one on the left. (also as long as there's enough space)
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: (interface) hw-assisted SPI would be ideal. plus a few more gpios for control functions, one of them interrupt-capable
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: just idle curiosity or are you thinking in the direction of what should go into the ya ?
<wolfspraul> sure, Ya pops into my mind all the time
<wolfspraul> all sorts of Ya fantasies :-)
<wolfspraul> the one I was just thinking about was a 4 inch or so LCM, 640x480 resolution, resistive touch, no keyboard (just a flat 4'' tablet basically), 4760 pcb including atrf, case unknown, maybe acrylic?
<wolfspraul> but then I think through all the painful details and cannot really convince myself I'm even thinking in the right direction
<wolfspraul> at least 4760 would protect some of our kernel work, I need to double-check that though, not entirely sure
<wolfspraul> 640x480 would mean a relatively simple upgrade path from 320x240
<wolfspraul> resistive is easier to source than capacitive (well, I would need some sourcing tours for this Ya anyway, so it could change, but that's my current assumption)
<wolfspraul> what else? camera module - well, would be nice but drives up complexity and number of things that can go wrong and need to be supported well
<wpwrak> for the case, maybe something with an aluminium mold ? that shouldn't be too expensive to make
<wolfspraul> then I'm worried about market demand, if we are making an exotic geek toy that's not good
<wolfspraul> and what more could it ever be with the specs of other tablets shooting through the roof...
<wpwrak> not sure about table form factor. at what size does the killing ground begin these days ?
<wolfspraul> so I keep thinking :-)
<wpwrak> (tablet competition) yes ... that's where a keyboard would set it apart better
<wpwrak> USB host
<wolfspraul> to me it's just one big range of tablets, from 3.5'' to 10'' and more
<wpwrak> 2-3 x 8:10 slot
<wpwrak> so 4" would already be in the "nasty" zone
<wpwrak> (resistive) sounds good
<wolfspraul> well, I'm not sure
<wolfspraul> anything but capacitive will be labeled as 'outdated' by 99.99% of tech reviewers
<wolfspraul> we just need to be real about that
<wpwrak> if you have a keyboard, the touch screen is less important
<wpwrak> and all the multitouch stuff is a patentfest anyway
<wolfspraul> I'm not worried about that
<wolfspraul> first of all no software would make use of multitouch for how long? several months/years?
<wolfspraul> second, multitouch is implemented in the IC that drives the capacitive touch layer, so getting it 'enabled' is already not easy as the guys implementing it make a big fuss out of this feature
<wolfspraul> the patents are a political game about markets between big players. it doesn't matter what hype-words some journalist uses in an article, those big guys would throw patent lawsuits at each other no matter what patents they are actually holding
<wolfspraul> so no, I would totally not be worried about 'multi touch' because of patents
<wolfspraul> let's just call it 'two finger touch' and done, problem solved :-)
<wolfspraul> my concern is simply on ease of sourcing
<wolfspraul> it may even be easier to talk to a multitouch screen because it's usually just uart with some simple coordinates coming down, wherease resistive is 4 wires and needs to go to an adc
<wolfspraul> sorry I meant "easier to talk to a capacitive screen"
<wolfspraul> the difference between single-touch and multi-touch is only in the software of the IC driving the capacitive layer
<wpwrak> "for eons, even the most sophisticated human beings have found one finger more than sufficient for communication amongst each other. thanks to sophisticated design choices, our device has the same capability and does need the "multitouch" crutches of inferior competitors" ;-)
<kristianpaul> haha
<wpwrak> the main usability difference may be calibration. not sure how modern resistive screens are doing in that regard.
<mth> a big problem with capacitive screens is fingerprints
<wpwrak> in any case, i'd treat the screen less as a touch screen but more as a touch pad. let the keyboard do the work with narrow semantics
<mth> I use iPod Touch devices for work and I have to clean the screen very often
<mth> which is relatively simple with a flat device, but would be a pain on a clamshell
<mth> putting a finger on a small screen is not useful anyway, since your finger blocks your view
<mth> it only works with relatively large widgets
<mth> what about a touch pad on the bottom of the device?
<mth> there are a few devices like that, but I've never used one
<wolfspraul> :-)
<wolfspraul> my main concern is software continuity, and after that it's finding a good market niche with actual sales potential
<kristianpaul> mth: but ipod touch screen have a glass-like layer that make easier that cleaning task
<wpwrak> mth: (pad on bottom) not very table-friendly. but otherwise, probably quite nice
<mth> yes, it's easy to clean, but you have to do it multiple times per day if you use it intensively
<kristianpaul> sure :)
<wolfspraul> so most discussions that compare to Apple/HTC/Samsung/etc or that propose all sorts of Startrek-like features will go nowhere, except to be entertaining
<mth> wpwrak: do people put their NN on the table or do they hold it with both hands?
<mth> I only have a Dingoo and I always hold it when I'm actually playing
<wolfspraul> I need to find a niche where I can realistically sell, let's say, 5000 units. Or even 2000 units. If you think about how small that number is in consumer electronics, you will realize the main problem is to identify and zoom in on the customer, and seal the deal.
<mth> only for gmenu2x testing I leave it on the table
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: (niche) i don';t think the "compete in the ardiuno sector" idea is quite dead yet, despite the lukewarm reception of ben+ubb
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: with many 8:10 ports and a better test point layout, it should be possible to be considerably stronger there
<mth> wolfspraul: I know I've said so before, but wifi would make it interesting to many more people
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: also, if we own the design 100%, the platform would become more interesting for derivative designs
<wolfspraul> I think about use cases first, Ben NanoNote is a great music player, and people use all sorts of pda-like apps
<kristianpaul> wolfspraul: wich device dimention are you thinking using this 640x480 lcm?
<wolfspraul> so if the Ya is a successor, it needs to continue to work well on those use cases, and add some new ones
<wolfspraul> mth: and I've answered before - at least from me - never expect a Wi-Fi device :-)
<wolfspraul> ever
<wolfspraul> ever ever
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: (selling) i would try to see if we can find sponsorship for the R&D part. that also takes some pressure from the sales side.
<wolfspraul> :-)
<wolfspraul> sales pressure is good, I like it. I am just explaining my thinking, how I qualify different feature ideas for the Ya.
<wolfspraul> #1 concern is software continuity, #2 concern identify and target a realistic market niche
<wolfspraul> that's just me
<wolfspraul> ben-wpan has to be integrated, it's something very unique and goes in the right direction
<kristianpaul> (software continuity) be aware of CLI apps around..
<wolfspraul> what do you mean?
<kristianpaul> no more vi device :)
<kristianpaul> i mean around in current nanonote
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: for the lcm, my main priorities would be (in no particular order): 1) access to controller documentation, 2) can be sourced, 3) can connect without complex interface boards, 4) thin/light.
<kristianpaul> i mean, just thinking in all current apps in the nanonote that require a keyboard..
<kristianpaul> jsut that
<wpwrak> yes, software continuity pretty much requires a keyboard
<wolfspraul> oh, in my idea above you connect a USB keyboard
<kristianpaul> or may be i undertood baddly software continuity
<wpwrak> that's clumsy
<wolfspraul> no you understood perfectly right
<kristianpaul> mini usb keyboard?
<wolfspraul> yes, very clumsy, agreed
<kristianpaul> like in the palm era? :-)
<wpwrak> worse. the palm wasn't really designed to be a keyboard device, so the keyboard was quite optional
<kristianpaul> hum truth
<wpwrak> i don't think we need to be afraid of making a keyboard. it's something we haven't even tried yet, so it may not be as hard as one would think.
<wolfspraul> you mean a diy keyboard?
<kristianpaul> what exactly you with with making?
<wpwrak> needs someone with a CNC mill, access to some materials (plastics, rubber), and a bit of time, though.
<kristianpaul> thats you !
<wolfspraul> omg
<kristianpaul> hahah
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: "DIY" in the sense that we want to own the design
<wolfspraul> when I visited our keyboard factory, I was really sad that I couldn't take pictures, or rather I didn't dare to ask because those 2 guys already went way over anything with us as their teeny tiny customer
<mth> afaik the keyboard was one of the few parts of the Pandora that didn't cause problems
<wolfspraul> they have some equipment there!
<wolfspraul> and 6000 workers
<wolfspraul> keyboards are very labor intensive
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: so skip all the fancy bits and do what you actually can do ;-)
<wolfspraul> sure sure, I'm just saying. I like your mental approach'
<wolfspraul> "want to own the design"
<wolfspraul> even after our deaths, I guess :-)
<wolfspraul> we own everything!
<wolfspraul> in the keyboard factory I learnt how labor intensive at least the current industry keyboards are. I didn't know before.
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: not sure about labout intensive. there are designs that look relatively automatization-friendly, but one would have to analyze them a bit deeper
<wolfspraul> they have clean rooms, I think class 1k
<wolfspraul> god you have no idea, at least from visiting an actual factory that makes 4 million keyboards / month
<wolfspraul> I mean they have enough capital to automate everything, and they do, but it's still very labor intensive, and lots and lots of steps.
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: also, we have to keep in mind the volume. an automated process step that takes a few minutes to make the keyboard would be quite okay if you expect to produce, say, 5000 units over a few weeks
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: (4M/month) and this is exactly the difference ;-)
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: also, even if it is labor-intensive, that alone wouldn't make it infeasible. after all, you're in china :)
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: and again, if someone has to work 1-2 minutes, say, inserting keycaps, that still wouldn't be a big deal for the intended quantity
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: of course, you may want to think of a contingency plan, just in case that 4M order rolls in ;-)))
<wolfspraul> making keyboards sounds like a distraction to me
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: (own the design after our deaths) well, that's the real value we're creating :) a completely open complete process. that ya should be a lot more than just a gadget
<wolfspraul> in the general market, the move to capacitive touch is unstoppable
<wolfspraul> maybe there are some niches where keyboards will prevail for a while, but then an external keyboard, even if clumsy, may still not make it impossible to sell to such a niche
<wpwrak> mth: what is the pandora keyboard like ? did they just OEM it ?
<DocScrutinizer> http://events.ccc.de/camp/2011/Fahrplan/events/4412.en.html  looking forward to meet you there :-)
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: (touch screen vs. keyboard) dunno. but the keyboard here has a different role. first, it ensures continuity. second, it acts as a differentiator.
<wolfspraul> that project [openpandora] is such a clusterfail, it makes Om look like a stellar success story. just my 2c
<wolfspraul> among many other mistakes they made the wifi mistake
<wolfspraul> and the preorder mistake
<mth> wpwrak: it's a rubber keys keyboard
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: well, if their keyboard is nice, maybe we can also learn from their successes ? ;-)
<wpwrak> mth: a la sinclair spectrum ?
<wolfspraul> god no, please not :-)
<mth> what I meant is, they got so many things wrong, but the keyboard works, so simple keyboards are possible
<wolfspraul> I think in all honesty OpenPandora turns out to be just a scam.
<wolfspraul> they have scammed and betrayed in so many ways, it's almost funny again.
<wpwrak> mth: is the pandora keyboard also pleasant to use ? (within its class)
<mth> I've never typed on one
<wolfspraul> it's scam entertainment
<wpwrak> mth: but people who have like it ?
<mth> I think "don't attribute to malice that which can be explained by incompetence" applies here
<mth> wpwrak: I haven't heard complaints about it, but the typical Pandora user plays games and doesn't work in vi all day
<wolfspraul> ok, so that's why I lower to 'scam entertainment'
<wolfspraul> which may actually be worth its money, given the show they put up for it, don't you think?
<wolfspraul> I mean - have you ever seen something like this???
<wpwrak> mth: maybe one could plant a text adventure to make hem use the keyboard :)
<wolfspraul> it's not even open hardware, so thanks god nobody who gets to that level will compare the OP effort to ours
<mth> true, only the software layer is open
<wpwrak> mth: what's the one with just a single step called again ... ? well, tehre are actually several. but the one that, i think, begins with "re..." is pretty cool.
<mth> which still makes it better in that regard than the GP consoles, where it takes a lot of pressure to even make them comply with the GPL
<wolfspraul> OpenPandora is a scam, so I'm not sure whether I would rather want someone buy a GP console, or send money to OP and expect ? what?
<mth> wpwrak: I'm not an expert on text adventures, although I have written a few when I was a kid
<wolfspraul> years of excuses?
<wpwrak> "rematch". this one: http://www.wurb.com/if/game/1114
<wolfspraul> wpwrak: OpenPandora took pre-order money in 2008 and is still coming up with new excuses for the folks who ordered in 2008 and haven't gotten anything yet ;-)
<wolfspraul> can you imagine this type of longevity? it's amazing!
<DocScrutinizer> wolfspraul: will you join the camp?
<wolfspraul> and the excuses were always good and entertaining, and made you want to wait for the next excuse or dramatic turn 1-2 months later
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: see, in the end, they may outlast us :)
<wolfspraul> well, I wouldn't want to have their problems
<wolfspraul> for example they need to find a way to identify those of the early buyers who gave up on it on the 2+ years ordeal
<wolfspraul> but how?
<wpwrak> die young, never have to worry about longevity ;-)
<wolfspraul> if they come out with a statement now "sorry, we will never deliver", then they get lots of people suing them and what not
<mth> wolfspraul: "2 months" is always the time needed to completion for Pandora, just like 20 years for commerical fusion power generation
<wpwrak> (identify persistent customers) that could be handled by the complaints department :)
<wolfspraul> so they cannot do that
<wolfspraul> they can also not just finally do good on their orders, because of infinite incompetence, and also financial pressure by now (preorder money spent)
<wolfspraul> so...
<wolfspraul> the show must go on
<wolfspraul> excuses forever
<wolfspraul> :-)
<DocScrutinizer> no excuses to miss the camp :-)
<wolfspraul> no I won't come, way too far to get there, too expensive, takes too much time
<wolfspraul> mth: are you following op?
<wpwrak> they could say that they lost tgheir database and customers who still want their unit have to snail-mail in a receipt. make the address somethere in malaysia, with local writing. that should nicely separate those who still care from those who don't.
<wolfspraul> I think for the show they put up as a tech project, they should setup a donation opportunity
<mth> yes, I made the mistake of preordering one
<wolfspraul> ahhh :-)
<wolfspraul> want me to throw some salt in your wounds?
<mth> then half a year later I got a Dingoo so I'd actually have something to play with
<wolfspraul> so tell me. you are still waiting?
<mth> yes
<wolfspraul> if they would now say "sorry, it will never come"
<wolfspraul> let's say with a very long and dramatic and emotional blog post
<wolfspraul> would you 'forgive' them and write off your money?
<rozzin> The Pandora website claims `delivery within 7 days', right now...?
<mth> I'd ask for whatever money they have left, or part or whatever as compensation
<wolfspraul> that's their big challenge now, to group their customers into the ones who already forgot, the ones that would forgive, and the ones that would sue
<mth> *parts
<wolfspraul> rozzin: nah, even though the 'premium' program was setup to betray on the early preorderes like mth, by now they are betraying the premium guys as well :-)
<wolfspraul> at least they stay true to their core values
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: i think people's readiness to sue is greatly over-estimated. particularly if it's internationally and against low-value targets (so there's no lawyer edging them on)
<wolfspraul> no, don't say that
<wolfspraul> especially in the US there are a lot of 'small claims' courts that are especially setup for the small guys to sue the big corps
<wolfspraul> and they are very effective
<mth> I knew it was risky when I preordered, but it's not an amount of money that I'd cannot do without
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: where is the home of openpandora ?
<wolfspraul> there may be similar 'arbitration' offices in other developed countries
<wolfspraul> they have legally registered companies in the UK, Germany
<mth> I've also got a stack of unplayed PS2 and Wii games and added up that's also a lot of money
<wolfspraul> this is not the same type of 'sue' like then Apple sues Samsung
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: not US ? good. then they should be safe
<mth> although I could play them any minute, it's likely I won't ever play half of them
<wolfspraul> mth: so what would your reaction to that blog post be?
<wolfspraul> basically you would be willing to give up your money
<wolfspraul> sounds like
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: germany could be tricky if they still have those "rechtsschutzversicherungen" there, though
<wolfspraul> unfortunately OP may not know you are in that group
<wolfspraul> anyway, the OP excuse show will go on, for sure
<mth> wolfspraul: I would want to get compensated in some way
<wolfspraul> but it's a scam, really. and it's not open hardware either.
<mth> even a broken unit would be better than nothing
<wolfspraul> just a big incompetence show
<wpwrak> mth: maybe a t-shirt ? "i was among the first to pre-order an openpandora and all i got is this lousy t-shirt"
<mth> I probably wouldn't start a lawsuit all by myself, but I might join a group
<wolfspraul> ouch
<wolfspraul> you are more belligerent than I thought
<wolfspraul> you got 2 years of freak incompetence show already, that's not enough for your money?
<wolfspraul> I mean - they don't entertain you?
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: (incompetence) seems that they lack the courage of doing a clean reset. we've seen this at openmoko as well. remember the quad-band disaster ? sean lived in fear for months because of that. and in the end, nothing happened.
<wolfspraul> I seriously think it is entertaining, like in a bad comedy movie or so.
<wolfspraul> yes correct
<wolfspraul> need to make drastic back-to-reality decisions, or else you lift off into fantasy land
<wpwrak> do it properly, and people will even applaud your honesty :)
<mth> wolfspraul: it's less of an entertainment if you still have a little hope that one day it might be delivered
<wolfspraul> well, the OP case is hopeless
<wolfspraul> mth: come on. you know how incompetent they are.
<mth> like hope of winning a lottery, not a certainty
<wolfspraul> let's give them a break
<wolfspraul> among their many many mistakes was wifi
<wolfspraul> just because you mentioned it above
<rozzin> What about wifi?
<wolfspraul> wifi is a difficult beast, and it already cost OP a lot of sweat by now
<wolfspraul> mth: do you agree?
<rozzin> Did they not get it working?
<wolfspraul> I mean, I can vaguely remember at least 3-5 wifi dramas at OP.
<mth> I don't agree that wifi is a mistake
<wolfspraul> ha
<wolfspraul> :-)
<wolfspraul> seems you still enjoy waiting
<wpwrak> anyway ..... so, if a ya is to have sw continuity with the ben, then a keyboard is non-optional. everyone agrees ?
<mth> it is difficult, yes, but it's so very useful that when it does work
<wolfspraul> seems you like waiting
<wolfspraul> not sure whether you want to buy an illusion or a functioning product
<mth> I got a Dingoo to pass the time
<wolfspraul> :-)
<wpwrak> mth: so are unicorns. don't give up on the breeding experiments ! ;-))
<mth> and now even if they would deliver the Pandora I'd stick to developing for the DIngoo
<wolfspraul> mth: in 3 months you will have 3 year preorder anniversary, right? you think you get it before then?
<kristianpaul> mth: or upgrade your existing order!
<kristianpaul> :-D
<wolfspraul> mth: no, they are already screwing over those guys as well now!!!
<wolfspraul> :-)
<wolfspraul> kristianpaul: I meant kristianpaul not mth
<kristianpaul> that's website said ;)
<mth> I don't expect to get one before 2012
<wolfspraul> it's really unbelievable
<kristianpaul> sure sure, i realize it now after readinf this chat and checking website
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: if it worked once, why not try it a second time ? :)
<wolfspraul> first they make the upgrade program, a clear betrayal of the worst kind, and now they scam out those folks as well. argh.
<wolfspraul> that's why I rather say 'scam' than 'incompetence'
<wolfspraul> but mth, being an early preorderer, has more authority on this than me, a mere bystander
<wolfspraul> so if mth says it's incompetence, so be it :-)
<mth> I don't know for sure, it's just my nature not to assume the worst
<wpwrak> we should ask them if they could manage the ya project for us. they seem to have a very efficient approach to ensuring long-term financing. and their customer base doesn't seem to be a lot more unhappy than average. instead of complaining about shortcomings of the product, they're complaining about shortcomings in the delivery. what's the difference anyway ;-)
<wolfspraul> 'very different approach'
<wolfspraul> :-)
<wpwrak> that too :)
<mth> wpwrak: I think it's not sustainable though
<mth> very few people would pre-order for batch 2
<wolfspraul> if OP wouldn't exist, it would need to be invented. so entertaining.
<wolfspraul> oh of course not
<wolfspraul> scamming business doesn't scale well
<wpwrak> mth: let's see how they solve that problem then. maybe an enhanced model ? or maybe sell the IPR to another company that promises to do everything right ? ;-)
<wolfspraul> they will try to sell any more unit they can make to new people
<wolfspraul> while keeping the old preorders unfilled
<wolfspraul> which is what they have been doing for a while already, and amazingly people like mth accept it
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: speaking of scamming, did yi ever get her ben back from that "business contact" ?
<wolfspraul> so yes, they have a 'very different approach to long-term financing' :-)
<DocScrutinizer> you are aware it's iirc been Carsten (raster) who tried to cooperate with them?
<wolfspraul> wpwrak: no, many excuses, but she's having fun
<DocScrutinizer> no surprise they were so reluctant
<wolfspraul> the problem for OP is that they leave a growing trail of betrayed/scammed people behind, and it gets harder and harder to rise above that
<wolfspraul> so they need to be very careful in their public statements, so that people like mth can keep giving them the benefit of the doubt ("incompetence"), instead of looking at legal action
<wolfspraul> not a good position to do anything new, new product, new anything
<wolfspraul> mth: you can search the channel here for me saying very clearly - preorder will _always_ fail
<wolfspraul> I was consistant in that for years, and it remains true.
<DocScrutinizer> afaik they were "not interested in any cooperation" regarding building a phone based on pandora
<wolfspraul> some people think they can be smarter than the rest, and proove everybody wrong, but seriously. Everybody with experience will tell you that - "preorder will always fail". always always always.
<wolfspraul> 100%, not 99%
<wolfspraul> that's because with innovative products, unexpected things will happen
<wolfspraul> and once you are in a preorder situation, you cannot communicate with your preorder customers anymore
<wolfspraul> you cannot ask "should we remove this feature?" "should we fix this and delay x weeks?", once you have several thousand customers you would get dozens of different answers back
<wolfspraul> so the only thing that works is if you have 1 or maybe 2-3 large preorder customers, let's call them 'financiers'
<mth> actually the Pandora wasn't all that innovative, it's largely based on the beagle board design
<wolfspraul> that works, because you can communicate with them
<mth> the main problem is that none of the team seem to have any experience with manufacturing
<wolfspraul> or if you do something strictly non-innovative, like just a buy & sell trade type of thing. you collect preorders, once you have enough you execute the trade.
<wolfspraul> no they are not listening
<wolfspraul> they get exactly what they deserve and what was clear would happen
<wolfspraul> the 'manufacturing' you mention there is a boatload of 'innovation'
<wolfspraul> preorder in their situation = fail
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: the keyboard is admittedly one of the most troublesome bits. but we already know several of the steps can be handled efficiently. so just needs a bit more research into the remaining ones. in parallel, it would of course be good to see if, say, something like the ben's rubber-metal-keycaps assembly can be ordered as a finished unit
<wolfspraul> it's easy to say that now in hindsight, so we shouldn't bash on them too hard
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: the pcb structude (pcb, domes, film) would be similar it not the same anyway
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: ah, and for the feature list: no NAND ;-) lower cost, less PCB complexity, more GPIOs to have fun with. a triple win ;-)
<wolfspraul> :-)
<kristianpaul> (no NAND) yes !
<mth> if no nand, then 1 or 2 SD slots?
<mth> since one would be filled with the OS all the time
<wpwrak> we could have "perfect" VGA out quite cheaply via the LCM controller. up to 8 bit RGB (3+3+2 or such) would be very easy. just a few registers, maybe a driver chip (74125 series or such)
<wpwrak> mth: 2-3 of them :)
<wpwrak> ("prefect" VGA) perfect in terms of the timing. actually, the ben could do that too. one would just have to make an adapter board with a few pogo pins
<mth> VGA and RGB TV-out are pretty much the same except for the horizontal refresh frequency, correct?
<mth> ah, there was something about having hsync and vsync on one or two pins
<wpwrak> mth: yup. all the same signals
<wpwrak> mth: vga has separate hsync and vsync. and the 47xx too, of course
<wpwrak> it's one of those things we can design-test easily with the ben
<mth> I remember seeing a design for a VGA to SCART cable, but I never built it because the TV-out from the Matrox card was much better quality than I expected
<mth> is HDMI an option or is it not possible to do that while being open?
<wpwrak> mth: the 4760 doesn't seem to have HDMI capability
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: btw, have you found out anything about the 4765 ? like data sheets, programming manual, production status ?
<kristianpaul> wpwrak, i wrote ingenic.. as expected no reply, but i tried !
<kristianpaul> 1Ghz catch me i confess :-)
<wpwrak> 1 GHz more like scare me :)
<kristianpaul> erghh, it was about 4770
<mth> wpwrak: the 4760 data sheet does mention the possibility to send 1280x720 to an external HDMI encoder
<wolfspraul> no I haven't spoken to Ingenic in a while
<wpwrak> ah, maybe s/4765/4770/ then. get confused about their numbers :)
<wolfspraul> they will just grind forward, copy/paste semiconductor IP blocks, tape-out, see what works, run 3 different software teams in parallel, see what works, in all the mess try to sell as many chips as possible, etc.
<wolfspraul> zero continuity anywhere
<wolfspraul> I don't care what Ingenic manages to manufacture, I care what software we have and whether it will easily run on any of their new chips or not.
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: sure. but some of their chips are a bit more long-term-stable than others, no ?
<wolfspraul> what do you mean with 'long term stable'?
<wolfspraul> this being a chinese manufacturer, they will make even 1 wafer for you, so moq maybe 500-1000 chips or so
<kristianpaul> like 4740? :-)
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: (don't care) if you want to make a device, you need to know the chip ...
<wolfspraul> oh sure, I'm just saying I don't go there to learn about their latest features, I go there to look for continuity paths for our software
<wolfspraul> so I need to look at the kernel and ask lars first, not Ingenic...
<wpwrak> oh, if you can just order a la carte, then it's indeed easy
<wolfspraul> or Ingenic can pay Lars for work, if he's interesting, but I doubt I can convince Ingenic about this, no matter how much they waste in their crazy internal efforts
<wolfspraul> "if he's interested"
<mth> iirc larsc has a 4760 dev board
<wolfspraul> yes, and I think some 4760 support is already showing up in a unified kernel, I just have no overview
<wolfspraul> mth: don't worry about HDMI and 'open'
<mth> well, he does have a track record of getting drivers merged into mainline, but I don't know if they are already at a point where they consider that important
<wolfspraul> that's the usual scare tactic
<wolfspraul> we have this problem in many areas, even USB (no trademark/logo rights), *SD (all sorts of FUD), etc.
<wolfspraul> so if we do anything with HDMI, for sure it won't be HDMI
<wolfspraul> it will be the Qi Digital Video Interface, QDVI
<mth> so it won't be called HDMI, but it will conveniently accept a HDMI cable?
<wolfspraul> or something else out of Werner's kitchen
<wolfspraul> we will test HDMI interoperability to our newly created standard later
<wolfspraul> these kinds of organizations work with 3 weapons:
<wolfspraul> 1) trademarks
<wolfspraul> 2) copyrights
<wolfspraul> 3) patents
<wolfspraul> #1 also includes logos (quite important on the retail side actually)
<wolfspraul> and then trade secrets, but since we don't break into anybodys office that's never a problem for us
<wolfspraul> #2 is easy, since we only use proper free software
<wolfspraul> #1, well, no 'HDMI' anywhere, also no claims of 'HDMI compatibility' (only the trademark owner has the right to claim compatibility)
<wolfspraul> #3 will always hang over anybody, I go by practical threats and afaik HDMI is not known to be an aggressive patent enforcer. If they are, I would like to find out.
<wpwrak> we could "leak" the BOM, with the part identified (by the manufacturer) as "HDMI receptacle" or such :)
<wolfspraul> no it won't help, we have to work clean
<wolfspraul> trademark is trademark
<wolfspraul> that is actually a problem on the sales/retail side, in brochures, etc.
<mth> does it realy work thay way? for example 3rd party controllers for PlayStation list the name "PlayStation" on their boxes to identify the system it can be used with, but do not use the logo since they are not approved by Sony
<wolfspraul> and they know that, so they enforce that quite strict
<wolfspraul> it's a big world
<wpwrak> if the part manufacturer has the right to call it "HDMI", why couldn't we identify the part as "HDMI" as well ? (without making claims about the rest of the device, obviously)
<wolfspraul> where I like you can find Nckia, Nokic, Smugsnug, Sumsung, and so on
<wolfspraul> s/like/live/
<qi-bot> [commit] kyak: config.full_system: disable some busybox utils in favor of already included fully-functional counterparts; enable all dejavu fonts (the package had been splitted recently); enable ip utility (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/848173c
<wolfspraul> so I have no idea about those PlayStation controllers, where they are made, where they are sold, why they think they can do this, etc.
<wpwrak> "smugsnug" is cute ;-)
<wolfspraul> Sony may also have a trademark policy somewhere that allows this, for some markets, in some cases, etc.
<wolfspraul> all variations
<mth> they are sold in all game and toy stores in the Netherlands
<mth> it's not mail-order from Hong Kong thing
<wolfspraul> I'm just trying to decipher the HDMI situation, because you are worried about HDMI and 'open'
<mth> if Sony doesn't have to allow 3rd parties, they won't
<mth> they are one of the worst companies in that regard (about as bad as Apple)
<wolfspraul> I don't know about any particular case, first I try to explain my thought process
<mth> see Memory Stick
<wolfspraul> yes, HDMI is known to be restrictive
<wolfspraul> that's why we have DisplayPort now
<wolfspraul> but then it comes down to trademarks/logo, copyrights, patents
<wolfspraul> a normal commercial company cannot make a product without all of this
<wolfspraul> but we can
<wolfspraul> if:
<wolfspraul> a) our software is all free software
<wolfspraul> b) we make sure the company is not also an aggressive patent enforcer/troll
<wolfspraul> c) we stay away from their trademarks/logos
<wolfspraul> that only leaves the problem how we actually communicate the feature, but then we need to stay true to ourselves
<wolfspraul> we cannot communicate it as 'hdmi' easily, maybe not at all
<wolfspraul> maybe we can say somewhere that we did HDMI testing and found some to work, we can publish a list of 'white-listed' peripherals or so
<mth> or call it "H-video out"?
<wolfspraul> if we are very brave we can say 'hdmi-like' (as opposed to 'hdmi-compatible')
<wolfspraul> that's the maximum, and it's right on the fine line of the law
<wolfspraul> but the less hdmi the better, and 'hdmi-like' maybe somewhere in the find print or footnotes or so
<wolfspraul> fine print
<wolfspraul> but if all this is followed, I am not worried, we can definitely implement a digital video output that we test against some hdmi-compatible tvs :-)
<wolfspraul> and not pay a royalty, and not have to worry about opening our design and software
<wolfspraul> then the only thing that remains is an aggressive patent enforcement, but we take that risk in many places
<DocScrutinizer> if it's like a compatibility list, then I guess you are allowed to write "this acme headphones work for Nokia, Sony, iPhone" or "Controller for PlayStation"
<DocScrutinizer> you must not however claim it's a genuine playstation product, a Sony product, or use any of Sony's logos
<DocScrutinizer> I frequently find statements similar to "compatible with all HDMI displays like A, B, Foo"
<qi-bot> [commit] Jiri Brozovsky: Cscope source code browser -initial port to OpenWRT. (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/1ce048c
<viric> cscope works great.
<viric> even better, with cbrowser.
<kristianpaul> ah, you are Jiri !
<kristianpaul> read who usefull could be cscope
<viric> Jiri?
<viric> I am not
<viric> I promise I don't commit to openwrt :)
<viric> I'm the one of "nix"
<kristianpaul> ok ;)
<viric> but I'm an old user of cscope
<viric> that was the only piece that could handle fast the code I had to deal with
<kristianpaul> looks interesting i must admin, ack-grep and grep have limits also my screen session..
<tuxbrain_HxxHhzo> wpwrak: ping
<kristianpaul> he, i need something like that for verilog :-D
<kristianpaul> hello tuxbrain ! :_)
<tuxbrain> hi kris :) hi all
<tuxbrain> wpwrak: need help with the Latex file, I have translated it but it doesnt "compile" and doesn't generate the pdf file. can any one help me, I don't understand anything on the error log
<wpwrak> tuxbrain: what's the error ?
<wpwrak> tuxbrain: and where did you put the source ?
<tuxbrain> source: http://pastebin.com/i2B2FcCV
<tuxbrain> error log:http://pastebin.com/NFv9iHvB
<tuxbrain> I have to wake up in 4 hours to take the plane to Bilbao, and I have not the presentation yet... youuuhuuu
<wpwrak> 4 hours is plenty :)
<tuxbrain> yes if I achive to sleep 3 of that 4 ours I will have doubled the sleeping media of this week
<wpwrak> maybe you should be careful. too much sleep all of a sudden. that can't be healthy :)
<tuxbrain> every infinitesimal part of my body dissagrees with you
<wpwrak> this will fix the error: http://pastebin.com/0XNRZfbM
<wpwrak> i get the non-ASCII characters all wrong, too. not sure what they look like at your end
<wpwrak> the proper way of doing accented characters would be for \'a, \'e, \'i, \'o, \'u, \~n
<tuxbrain> arrrgh
<tuxbrain> ok gonna try search and replace of this
<wpwrak> actually, instead of \'i, you should write {\'\i}, but it seems they now both produce the same result
<wpwrak> ah, here 's an easier solution:
<wpwrak> (i never use non-ASCII :)
<tuxbrain> arrrgh and for the ñ?
<kristianpaul> ~n
<tuxbrain> ok the \usepackage[utf8]{inputenc}
<tuxbrain> works :)
<tuxbrain> wpwrak: mmm letter is too big
<tuxbrain> in some diapos it overcomes the edge
<wpwrak> tuxbrain: in geneal or just at some spots ?
<wpwrak> tuxbrain:  yuo can try reducing the 14pt in the first line
<wpwrak> tuxbrain: or trim the problem text a little
<tuxbrain> fuck dude next time open office like whatever else in the world , right? :P
<wpwrak> i was thinking of writing it directly in postscript ... :)
<tuxbrain> I also have a piece of stone and piece of metal to borrow you to next doc
<tuxbrain> runic fonts works best with that standard
<wpwrak> hmm, i could then cnc-mill my talk. present it on stone tablets .. sounds classy :)
<tuxbrain> ok I think know is acceptable
<tuxbrain> wpwrak: http://pastebin.com/BX0abKpS can you please add it to your repo and generate a downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/fisl12_es.pdf ?
<wpwrak> naw, what;s the name of your conference ? :)
<tuxbrain> f4hc  stands for "Fredom for hardware and comunications"
<wpwrak> page 9: sure you want to capiltalize "Esquemas" ?
<wpwrak> similarly, page 11: "Coloracion Realista" (the R)
<qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: fisl2011/talk-ex.tex: Spanish translation, by David Samblas (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/6ec53ad
<wpwrak> tuxbrain: what's your projects.qi-hardware.com user name ?
<tuxbrain> I like the R , I agree with the E
<tuxbrain> I think is tuxbrain
<wpwrak> dsamblas = David Samblas
<wpwrak> mutrox = David Reyes Samblas Martinez
<wpwrak> seems dsamblas is the one you use
<tuxbrain> yes I think so
<wpwrak> you now have commit access to wernermisc, so you can edit it if you want
<tuxbrain> ok I will try to not mesh anything :)
<tuxbrain> well time to sleep
<tuxbrain> three hours of full sleep, wow incredible :)
<qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: fisl2011/talk-es.tex: fixed capitalization of esquemas in mid-sentence (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/419dd44
<qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: fisl2011/Makefile: added generation and uploading of the Spanish translation (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/4fb280c