<kristianpaul>
this is odd, i inverted logic for the soft reset signal usign 1's complement, and now soc get in a reset loop...
<kristianpaul>
ah,, lekernel is gone..
<kristianpaul>
he, not here
<GitHub160>
[milkymist] kristianpaul pushed 1 new commit to gps-sdr-testing: http://bit.ly/mVZ0vK
<GitHub160>
[milkymist/gps-sdr-testing] missing negation in reset signal - Cristian Paul Peñaranda Rojas
<kristianpaul>
xiangfu: you have idea how interruptions are handle by lm32?
<kristianpaul>
with idea i mean workflow, in order properly handle it
<kristianpaul>
okay seems i have some fault with a internal reset signal with namuru, at least accum count is alive now..
<kristianpaul>
but what happended with channel 0 carrier and code nco... lets see
<GitHub65>
[milkymist] kristianpaul pushed 1 new commit to gps-sdr-testing: http://bit.ly/n9Zu7N
<GitHub65>
[milkymist/gps-sdr-testing] Missing epoch load write registers, also added full reset values for all write registers chan0 - Cristian Paul Peñaranda Rojas
<xiangfu>
kristianpaul, don't know that.
<wpwrak_>
tuxbrain_away: the one working on making an arduino+wpan device is "[g2]". haven't seen him here lately, though.
<wpwrak_>
kristianpaul: hmm, you invert the reset logic and then your thingy stays in reset all the time ? that actually sounds very plausible to me ;-)
<e1f>
there are several faculty members here and students who would be interested in it if it was arm
<wolfspraul>
e1f: unlikely. we are building out the platform we started, or at least that's what I'm doing. of course the project can be taken in other directions but I'm not aware of anyone working on that.
<wolfspraul>
when it comes to new CPUs I believe in the Milkymist project - www.milkymist.org
<e1f>
what was the decision behind not using the arm
<wolfspraul>
it wasn't that way round, it was just that the device that seemed best as a starting point for copyleft hardware had a mips-compatible cpu
<e1f>
ok. thanks for the info.
<wolfspraul>
from my observation so far, since we started, the number of actual buyers that bought the Ben because it was MIPS was probably equal to the number of buyers that would have bought it if it were ARM
<wolfspraul>
both cases are rare, most people do not look at the CPU architecture first, or make that their central decision
<wolfspraul>
I'd say maybe 5% of buyers bought because it was MIPS, and I assume there would be a few more that would have bought if it would have been ARM, let's say also 5% (maybe you are in there, don't know :-))
<e1f>
in academia, esp. for teaching and research, the cpu would be the primary motivator
<wolfspraul>
e1f: why do you prefer arm?
<wolfspraul>
what are you trying to teach or research?
<e1f>
our embedded systems courses are standardizing on arm
<mstevens>
e1f: so it's basically a network effect, you like arm because everyone is using arm?
<wolfspraul>
understood, nothing much we can do then. I spare you my comments about academia though, so happy I never went there :-)
<wolfspraul>
mstevens: yes, academia :-)
<wolfspraul>
but I understand, arm is pretty hyped right now
<wolfspraul>
they do good
<wolfspraul>
Milkymist uses a Mico32 core btw
<wolfspraul>
Lattive Mico (lm32)
<wolfspraul>
Lattice, sorry
<e1f>
mstevens: i think that would be a good summary of the situation. the industry has standardized on arm and market forces (i.e. students) want to learn it
<wolfspraul>
what's a good arm platform? don't know. maybe a reverse engineered Android phone?
<wolfspraul>
sounds like you are teaching future lobbyists
<wolfspraul>
is this a technical study?
<wolfspraul>
I'm not going to change your standardization, just curious to understand...
<e1f>
i meant ios is arm and windows will soon(!) run on arm
<mstevens>
wasn't the openmoko arm based?
<wolfspraul>
I would never think like that, but of course, I would never be able to sit still in a college for more than a few hours...
<wolfspraul>
arm sells around 2 billion licenses per year lately
<wolfspraul>
growing
<kodein>
olimex makes some arm prototype things that seem pretty decent for student laborations. we have a few in the computer club
<wolfspraul>
e1f: oh, watch out about 'ios is arm'
<kyak>
e1f: windows already runs on mips
<e1f>
arm might also have some educational licensing (i'm not sure) which makes "us" prefer arm
<wolfspraul>
I would totally disagree, that's not at all how those guys think, imho
<wolfspraul>
apple is making very strategic investments into llvm for a long time
<wolfspraul>
I'm still not trying to understand what is being taught.
<e1f>
i was trying to explain my "standardization" comment
<wolfspraul>
sorry I mean I am still not understanding what is being taught.
<wolfspraul>
CPU architecture?
<wolfspraul>
embedded systems?
<wolfspraul>
kernel development?
<wolfspraul>
compiler architecture?
<e1f>
i said embedded systems earlier
<wolfspraul>
Apple is the only company that successfully switched from one 'platform' to another one, they'll do it again :-)
<wolfspraul>
no platforms... just products...
<e1f>
there might be other courses too
<kodein>
wolfspraul: the m68k -> ppc switch or the ppc->x86 one? ;)
<wolfspraul>
e1f: I'm sure there is nothing you as an individual can do to escape that 'industry standardization'
<wolfspraul>
I'm really just curious to think deeper about it, now that you mention it
<wolfspraul>
as a student, I would immediately resist learning this stuff
<wolfspraul>
unless I want to become a lobbyist
<wolfspraul>
which I hear are well paid jobs...
<mstevens>
wolfspraul: they do seem to have a decent investment in ARM
<wolfspraul>
most important in embedded systems still seems C, kernel architecture, and lots of peripherals, I think also needs knowledge about electronic circuits at some point
<mstevens>
not to say they wont' switch as soon as something else looks like it has an advatnage
<wolfspraul>
you mean Apple?
<mstevens>
yes
<wolfspraul>
sure, I agree
<wolfspraul>
ARM is on a roll
<wolfspraul>
Intel needs to watch out
<wolfspraul>
I think those things are all easy to agree on.
<wolfspraul>
2 billion chips a year, not bad
<wolfspraul>
license & fabless model more powerful, more partners
<wolfspraul>
but it's just a proprietary CPU design, that's all
<wolfspraul>
how many lines of Verilog? let's say 10k-100k maybe
<wolfspraul>
neither the beginning nor the end of the world...
<wolfspraul>
ok let's be generous, with all they do they have 500k of sources now, plus tons of tools, testing stuff, etc. a large proprietary IP enterprise.
<wolfspraul>
I just don't understand why a student needs to learn that first, since it's better to learn the underlying concepts, they can easily be applied to ARM or any other architecture
<wolfspraul>
maybe the university can reuse some arm marketing material :-)
<wolfspraul>
but I should hold my cynicism back, be positive! :-)
<wolfspraul>
e1f: I propose an Android smartphone with good reverse engineering status on the software side
<wolfspraul>
that'd be pretty cool for students, I think
<wolfspraul>
e1f: and if you have some time and curiosity, for CPU architecture I propose you take a look at www.milkymist.org
<wolfspraul>
it's both fully open and fully functional, a combination which is rare. so I think it serves well as a study object.
<e1f>
in general, i would say faculty tend to teach the cpu with which they are familiar with
<wolfspraul>
that's for an IC design course though, maybe too far from 'embedded systems'
<wolfspraul>
when you work on an 'embedded system', cpu choice is the first thing you do?
<wolfspraul>
I mean you first say "it has to be arm", and then you think about the system?
<wolfspraul>
honestly, especially in embedded systems, that sounds very wrong to me
<wolfspraul>
but I am not trying to change your thinking here, please dont' misunderstand
<wolfspraul>
you are looking for an arm system, got it!
<wolfspraul>
how about an android smartphone?
<wolfspraul>
not sure whether that counts as 'embedded'
<wolfspraul>
does anybody know other cool and cheap arm boards?
<wolfspraul>
ron is typically flooding this channel with them, we could search the backlog
<wolfspraul>
nobody disputed that, I think they will continue to do well
<e1f>
and that articlea ppears in my rss feed
<wolfspraul>
2 billion chips (see above)
<wolfspraul>
laptop market is actually small, about 350 million/yr I think
<wolfspraul>
one quarter = 87.5 kk?
<wolfspraul>
hardly a blimp in the arm statistics, but at least those chips are expensive, that's good for arm
<wolfspraul>
arm makes as little as 3-4 cents for their cheapest chips, 10-40 for the bigger ones
<wolfspraul>
crazy numbers from an Intel perspective :-)
<wolfspraul>
they will think it must be DOLLARS not CENTS
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<larsc>
well, there is a big difference between ARM and Intel. Intel actually builds and sells the physical chip, while ARM just sells the blueprint
<wolfspraul>
yes and no
<e1f>
but i assume the fab is a lot cheaper than the intel cpus
<wolfspraul>
so yes, you are right, those 4-40 cents are just for the 'license'
<wolfspraul>
then some of their licensees add IP on top
<wolfspraul>
some don't
<wolfspraul>
it's a totally different machine/business model
<wolfspraul>
Intel is still doing manufacturing themselves, but it seems they have already decided that while this helped Intel the last 20-30 years, it will not do so the next 20-30 years
<wolfspraul>
so Intel will get out of manufacturing, and use fabs that can pool investments from many customers. maybe slowly, maybe not for their high-end chips first, but it will start.
<wolfspraul>
but that's a huge change in Intel's business model, so I have no idea whether Intel can survive such a turnaround - they will need their cash...
<wolfspraul>
this is not me guessing crazy stuff, but sort of reliable information from Intel Labs people that is also not a big secret
<kodein>
the foundry model does have its good points, yes
<wolfspraul>
that's why Intel bought McAfee, for example. you will see more like that.
<larsc>
still, intel sells the chips at the end of the day
<e1f>
did you read gordon moore's article in business week a few days ago about u.s. losing manufacturing industry to china?
<larsc>
even though if they were fabless
<wolfspraul>
you mean the strength of their brand? hmm. ARM's is also strong, as we can see here :-)
<wolfspraul>
but you are all right, this change will come slowly, it will take years
<wolfspraul>
Intel is still selling many chips > 100 USD
<wolfspraul>
ARM licensees pay pennies
<wolfspraul>
totally different machine, imo
<wolfspraul>
Intel is basically doing what a whole bunch of companies in the ARM ecosystem do together
<wolfspraul>
for my notebook I want power, as much as is reasonably priced
<wolfspraul>
so most likely I will not want those ARM notebooks
<wolfspraul>
unless Intel really screws up :-)
<wolfspraul>
but I think the percentage of users for power notebook will go down, like the workstations did
<wolfspraul>
most people just do a bit of browsing... skype, email, chat, etc.
<wolfspraul>
larsc: I'm sure Intel will have the most powerful chips for a long time, 10 years, or more.
<wolfspraul>
but ARM is coming and eating into their business in a nasty way, with a new model and new ecosystem with many partners. So Intel cannot just continue like before.
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak_: [refers to discussion a while ago] the Sharism Ltd. business model is entirely different from dangerousprototypes/sparkfun/seedstudios/adafruit/arduino/etc. 100% different
<wolfspraul>
Tuxbrain I don't know, he has to explain his model, I think he is moving more to a dangerousprototypes model?
<wolfspraul>
the only other company I know that I would say has the same model as Sharism is Elphel
<wolfspraul>
e1f: I did not [moore article], but maybe because I spent so much time in China I'm fairly relaxed about it
<wolfspraul>
nothing much is 'lost', imho
<wolfspraul>
don't know where to start, really. Let me know if you want to know more. I'm not Gordon Moore though :-)
<wpwrak_>
e1f, wolfgang: for researching the internals of a CPU/SoC, M1 should indeed be perfect. similar to what happened in operating system research when linux came out. completely changed the landscape.
<wpwrak_>
e1f, wolfgang: as far as assembler programming and general architecture is concerned, ARM (which one ? nowadays, the core is much less important than the SoC around it) or MIPS (again, which one ?) hardly matters. and you rarely have the luxury of spending enough time on a single core to become a great assembler programmer there. nor are such skills much needed.
<wolfspraul>
fully agree
<wolfspraul>
but the ARM mindset in academia will still be strong, even if it only helps to reuse ARM marketing material and tools in class 1:1
<wolfspraul>
my belief is rooted in a general suspicion of recent academic values though, so I hope Werner is right...
<wolfspraul>
Werner believes in academia, that's a good sign. Maybe they rediscover independent thought one day.
<wpwrak_>
wolfspraul: i'm a little surprised there would be an "ARM mindset" in academia. i can understand that arm is convenient (large choice of boards, large choice of books, etc.), but that should be all
<wolfspraul>
that's what e1f said. arm = industry standard = that's the only thing faculty looks at
<wpwrak_>
if a student thinks they MUST learn arm or they'll be doomed, i think some much earlier lesson went very wrong ;-)
<wolfspraul>
or even the teacher :-)
<mstevens>
wpwrak_: I've noticed academia seems very absolutist
<mstevens>
if a tool is good, it must be the best tool, and should be used for everything
<wpwrak_>
well, very young teachers or those nicely shielded in their ivory tower could be excused ;-) although the latter sometimes hatch weirder plans :)
<wolfspraul>
I totally agree about convenience, and I'm not against ARM in any way. but it's just one proprietary architecture/business model out of many. There have been others before, and there will be others in the future.
<mstevens>
at a more technical level, I have no personal knowledge but I've heard ARM assembler is quite nice
<wpwrak_>
mstevens: be careful not to confuse individuals with academia as a whole. it's often a lot of little fiefdoms, each with its very own very strict rules ;-)
<wolfspraul>
maybe it's even better to study a small not so ubiquitous platform, it helps focus on core principles that can then be easily applied to any other instance or currently commercially successful platform
<mstevens>
wpwrak_: I'm handwaving a bit, but see eg the way most of academic CS had a java love fest in the late 90s
<wpwrak_>
mstevens: ARM, MIPS, LM32, they're all okay. learn one and you know the rest. heck, even x86 will do.
<wolfspraul>
but I may be naive, if people only want to spend the minimum amount of hours, and make the maximum return on investment, maybe they want the straightest path to employment only
<wpwrak_>
mstevens: academia has its fashions and fads too, that is true :)
<wolfspraul>
god yeah, the Java thing was bad :-)
<wolfspraul>
is that over now?
<mstevens>
wpwrak_: my degree didn't actually do any assembler, we did CPU design and C, but nothing inbetween
<wolfspraul>
now it's Ruby on Rails?
<mstevens>
wolfspraul: I dunno, I left :)
<wpwrak_>
mstevens: funny to skip assembler but do cpu design ;-)
<mstevens>
wpwrak_: I actually regret missing the more mathematical stuff like formal methods
<wpwrak_>
mstevens: would you have appreciated it while studying ? :)
<mstevens>
wpwrak_: well I kinda regretted not doing straight computer science at the time
<wpwrak_>
mstevens: one problem with the theoretical stuff is that it doesn't age well (unless you use it regularly)
<mstevens>
wpwrak_: I found the same effect with the electronics!"
<wpwrak_>
heh :)
<wpwrak_>
today is tuesday ? wow. could have sworn it was wednesday. guess i'll need a resync soon :)
<mstevens>
In theory my degree was half electronic engineering, in reality I remember nothing
<wpwrak_>
wolfspraul: regarding the selection process, i agree. there are so many constraints that it simply doesn't make sense to make the CPU architecture one of them. except for things like whether it's supported by gcc.
<wpwrak_>
there should have been a good amount of math in the EE
<mstevens>
but not the cool math
<wpwrak_>
;-)
<mstevens>
regrets not doing things like lambda calculus and more algorithms
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak_: correct. in embedded systems the cpu architecture is just not so central a decision, other constraints often outweigh it. You may still end up with 50% arm or whatever, but you don't solve your equation in that order.
<wpwrak_>
mstevens: you can always get a good book and learn from there. now you'll even have the proper motivation for it ;)
<rozzin>
mstevens: So, do lambda-calculus :)
<mstevens>
rozzin: I will one day, my current obsession is french
<rozzin>
mstevens: Ben NanoNote comes with Guile ;)
<rozzin>
Oh, Epiphany--so broken I cannot see the animations.
<mstevens>
je voudrais apprendre francais
<mstevens>
only I'm still pretty crap
<rozzin>
mstevens: The best college-educated hackers I've known have tended to be `electrical engineers' by schooling.
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak_: (reset) sure,well the problem was my own reset logic is not negated so i did some small portinng for some namuru modules harcoded to altera stuf,, anyway,the thing was i forgot namutu logic for reset is negate, but thats fixed now i think
<valhalla>
I couldn't find on google a nanonote reseller in italy because there isn't one, right? (I know that tuxbrain sends to italy, I'm just writing a list for the local LUG)
<wolfspraul>
yes I think Tuxbrain in Barcelona is closest
<valhalla>
thanks
<tuxbrain_away>
Hi valhala , if is a group sales, send me an email at david@tuxbrain.com and tellme how many, to try to arrange you the price acordinly.
<valhalla>
sorry, no, I haven't found other people who are going to buy one :(
<valhalla>
I'm just collecting a list of local sellers of hardware that is related to the foss world, for my LUG, and it would have been nice to smuggle some free hardware in there :D
<wolfspraul>
wow so cool, I think Niels is working on a NanoMap update for the Ben!