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<brendafdez>
hi guys
<brendafdez>
sorry if this was already asked many times, which I guess it was but I couldn't find the answer in the website. the eur 990 estimation would be just for the board or the complete device? I'm interested in getting the board only but really can't order at that price (I would salsa have to pay 50% customs in Argentina, which would bring the price to eur 1500 just for the board)
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes, correct
<brendafdez>
ok, thanks for confirming it :(
<brendafdez>
the n900 is good for 5 more years I guess...
<DocScrutinizer05>
maybe knows deatails about import to .ar, but I guess he will confirm too
<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak ^^^ maybe ...*
<brendafdez>
that's cool. officially if you send it by mail and devalue that price we will have to pay 50%. I used to buy on eBay. and it was easier before the latest rule changes in 2014
<DocScrutinizer05>
I just know I can't even get N900 devel devices to wpwrak in BUE
<brendafdez>
there's one going for $90 instant buy in local eBay right now
<brendafdez>
ars 1350 in mercado libre
<brendafdez>
used in good condition in rosario.
<wpwrak>
(50%) yes, correct. and if the price is > (or was it >= ?) USD 1000, then you also have to be careful about the shipping method
<brendafdez>
yep
<wpwrak>
and of course, you previously need to declare your import, have enough import operations left in the year (of 2), and pay the fees and taxes before customs may release it
<wpwrak>
jonwil: the government is trying hard to beat venezuela at economical suicide
<jonwil>
Is .ar one of the countries with a dictatorship or is it one of those countries that has pretend elections?
<wpwrak>
jonwil: but if you don't need anything that was invented after, say, 1940, then argentina is pretty good
<brendafdez>
the government is doing what it always does. robbing everyone to purchase votes and stay in power.
<wpwrak>
this one adds particularly damaging economical policies to the mix, though
<wpwrak>
argentina has a lot of resources, so a large amount of abuse could actually be tolerated. but everything has its limits.
<brendafdez>
we have elections. they vote moar free stuff
<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak: do you share flight with hellekin?
<DocScrutinizer05>
ohmy
<DocScrutinizer05>
do you have same flight as ...
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: no, he's traveling to eu already around now. not sure when he'll return
<DocScrutinizer05>
aah
<brendafdez>
they can't rob faster so have to print faster, hinder purchases denominated in real currency etc
<brendafdez>
what can I say. I bet Europe will be in our position sooner rather than later. at some point you'll decode to print your way to prosperity. there's no other way out of the debt spiral.
<wpwrak>
jonwil: argentina democratically elects a tyrant every four years. then the tyrant enjoys unlimited powers for that time. after that, he tyrant can apply again, or if someone can tell better lies, there will be a regime change.
<DocScrutinizer05>
that sounds like Germany already
<DocScrutinizer05>
or USA ;-P
<brendafdez>
the tyrant always win. who was the last president to go for reelection and lose?
<wpwrak>
duhalde ? :)
<brendafdez>
he was never elected. no one knows how he ended president after all
<wpwrak>
a bit of a special case, though
<wpwrak>
well, someone had to do it :)
<brendafdez>
;) I bet
<wpwrak>
and for once, nobody was too eager to take care of that mess
<DocScrutinizer05>
we had a felt 50 years of 'Birne' and now already a felt 30 years of "Mama"
<brendafdez>
but well what can I say. I don't foresee this to ever end. until bitcoin leaves government powerless to steal, tax, debase. then they'll go home. a decade? two? never? we've never been this close in any case
<jonwil>
Let me guess, the tyrant uses people with Kalashnikovs to threaten anyone who tries to run for office against him (seems to be the done thing in South America although half the time its M16s given by USA to prop up someone willing to do what USA wants)
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: europe has its own share of issues, but much healthier structures in general. argentina is basically still stuck in the colonial age and is prone to rapid oscillations
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<DocScrutinizer05>
yep
<DocScrutinizer05>
we're catching up though
<DocScrutinizer05>
;-)
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<wpwrak>
jonwil: naw, that's obsolete. they're more subtle now. if most of the time, those who oppose the tyrant get to live. sometimes, they have accidents or commit suicide, though
<jonwil>
As for bitcoin, what will probably happen in these countries is that the government will ban bitcoin, impose jail terms for anyone who is found to be using them and insist that the local corrupt rip-off state run monopoly ISP filter and block any bitcoin traffic.
<wpwrak>
jonwil: thanks to an absurdly inefficient justice system, outlawing something has little effect on whether it's being done :)
<brendafdez>
the government will ban bitcoin
<wpwrak>
alas, that also applies to little pleasures like street robbery (if you're lucky and they don't come to your home)
<brendafdez>
or bitcoin will ban the government :)
<brendafdez>
I'm more confident in the second statement
<brendafdez>
but they want you all to believe he only possible scenario is first one
<wpwrak>
brendafdez: first they have to kill the contado con liqui :)
<wpwrak>
slay one dragon at a time ...
<brendafdez>
hah well i guess that's against their interest. blue will go through the roof of they kill the only dragon that still brings greenbacks home. but I dunno. I'm not really familiar with the fiat financial system. I only know it stinks badly
<jonwil>
Does Argentina have one of those crappy state-run monopoly telephone companies that try to ban any forms of communication that compete with their overpriced crappy international voice service?
<wpwrak>
well, if we're lucky, then there'll be a more reasonable government soonish. with its own flaws where it comes to ideology, but at least with some sense for cause and effect. else, it's probably time to get another airplane ticket ...
<brendafdez>
it does have a monopoly phone company. two actually but it's the same, they have split the country.
<wpwrak>
jonwil: no, all privatized and the international rates are actually pretty good
<jonwil>
is internet service expensive and limited?
<brendafdez>
not much worse than in the US
<brendafdez>
I dunno how much my neighbor pays anyway
<brendafdez>
thankfully they still use WPS here
<wpwrak>
jonwil: expensive but performance is decent. also, there is no enforcement of intellectual property laws :)
<brendafdez>
argentina is not that bad. and it's becoming cheaper now if you have dollars / euros
<brendafdez>
it only socks if you have to live here and are paid in pesos
<brendafdez>
sucks
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<wpwrak>
brendafdez: (against their interest) when has that ever stopped them ?
<brendafdez>
hmm I thing the government does care about their own interest, as in what will allow them to remain in power.
<jonwil>
I seem to remember one of those countries down that way that used pesos as a currency introducing restrictions on people converting those pesos to foreign currencies (e.g. via PayPal). Was that Argentina?
<wpwrak>
thanks to the inflation in dollars, even foreign currency doesn't help much. and the euro has tanked badly. not a happy situation at all.
<brendafdez>
it is
<brendafdez>
you can't legally purchase foreign currency here
<brendafdez>
there are a few loopholes
<brendafdez>
and a few ways to get permission for limited amounts
<brendafdez>
but it's generally forbidden. both that and wiring money overseas
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<wpwrak>
the government wants to stay in power and thinks that all it has to do to accomplish that is destroy the enemy of the day. it approaches that task with the subtlety and self-preservation instinct of a suicide bomber
<brendafdez>
if you're a free man and have bitcoin and usd cash then it doesn't bother you much
<brendafdez>
otherwise well... cattle goes to the abbatoir
<DocScrutinizer05>
was that .ar where a wise man said gvmt act like a gorilla with a machine gun?
<wpwrak>
of course, a little later, it notices that it has accidently blown off a limb or two. but hey, blame that on the enemy. the old one, and the new one who was obviously conspiring with the old one
<jonwil>
Its good to know that although things in Australia aren't that good thanks to the idiot running our country right now, there are countries that are far worse
<brendafdez>
if you lose a leg or dunno kill a prosecutor, you just blame it in the enemy and become stronger youserlf
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<jonwil>
Unlike Argentina (or Greece) there are no restrictions here in .au regarding how I can spend my hard-earned money
<brendafdez>
the enemy of the day is never there to be destroyed. it's created to consolidate ones own power. nothing brings people together like a common enemy
<wpwrak>
jonwil: in argentina such restrictions come and go. a few years ago, things were much better. even customs were almost bearable.
<jonwil>
brendafdez: Too true, these days the "enemies" in Australia seems to be "terrorists", "boat people" and "people who pirate movies and TV shows"
<brendafdez>
terrorist means politically dangerous to derps in power
<jonwil>
All groups that the government can get away with using as rationale for crappy laws that many people dont like
<wpwrak>
brendafdez: i think repsol would disagree :)
<brendafdez>
can be quite the compliment
<DocScrutinizer05>
"pirate TV shows" - what a paradoxon
<brendafdez>
repsol got paid in the end.
<brendafdez>
by the same derps that used to pride themselves in not paying
<jonwil>
in the .au context, "terrorist" seems to mean someone who has committed or intends to commit acts of violence and has a political or religious motivation behind their acts
<jonwil>
Shoot someone with a gun and its murder
<wpwrak>
yeah, it was a struggle, though
<brendafdez>
violence against the regime is terrorism
<brendafdez>
it can be with a gun and violence
<wpwrak>
displeasing the tyrant is terrorism
<brendafdez>
code is more effective, though
<DocScrutinizer05>
in USA "shoot someone with a gun" is a constitutional right ;-) When the victim is black
<brendafdez>
:)
<wpwrak>
(-:C
<jonwil>
Thankfully I did not vote for the guy in charge at the moment or his political party
<jonwil>
So at least I am not responsible for any of the stuff he is doing
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<brendafdez>
you look like a really cool bunch. I like channels where one can speak freely, where there's no off topic because the place is about the people, not the things. I have to go. I'll keep reading you in the logs, though.
<wpwrak>
brendafdez: hehe, just saw thay they're rising the bar for buying dollars. guess BCRA is out of reserves ? will be fun for the next government. all those rooms where billions of assets should be stacked, but all there is are spiderwebs ...
<brendafdez>
I'm passionate about financial meltdowns
<brendafdez>
they are always quite fun to watch
<jonwil>
Oh and btw here in Australia the only way to legally watch many popular TV shows like Game of Thrones is to pay $25 a month for Foxtel (the monopoly pay TV provider jointly owned by Rupert Murdoch and Telstra, one of the worst telephone/internet companies known to man) then pay more on top of that to get the premium channels
<jonwil>
So its no wonder people pirate them
<wpwrak>
the channel is actually about n900. but then, a bit of catharsis from time to time helps with staying sane :)
<jonwil>
Not to mention the fact that many shows get to .au months or even years after their airing elsewhere in the world :(
<wpwrak>
err, neo900 of course
<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak: err Neo900
<DocScrutinizer05>
:-)
<brendafdez>
the channel is not about the n900 but about the people that are neo900'ing or into neo900'ing I'd say
<DocScrutinizer05>
the Neo900 is designed into a society and time and situation
<DocScrutinizer05>
and we struggle with such stuff like .ar customs madness, so we're actually on tiopic still
<brendafdez>
k :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
if we were too off-topic, I'd utter a hush "*cough* topic *cough*"
<DocScrutinizer05>
;-)
<jonwil>
If I could afford one, I would definatly be buying a Neo900 to replace my current N900, just because its probably the only phone out there that has vaguely modern hardware and isn't bowing down to the NSA, GCHQ, BND and the other spy agencies around the world
<DocScrutinizer05>
jonwil: considered going for a developer agreement?
<jonwil>
what's that?
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, we hand out loaners to developers, eventually, and maybe we will consider selling them for a reduced price to those developers
<DocScrutinizer05>
obviously that applies only for key developers who really drive a certain development on Neo900
<jonwil>
I have zero time to contribute to Neo900 development unfortunatly
<jonwil>
at this point anyway
<DocScrutinizer05>
a pity, we would really need you
<jonwil>
in what way?
<brendafdez>
for the orgy.
<DocScrutinizer05>
you, pali and freemangordon are the 3 guys that drive maemo foss-fremantle
<bencoh>
freemantle ? :)
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<jonwil>
I just dont have the skills to do the kind of things needed for fremantle-on-Neo900/foss-fremantle (like the audio bits or the cellular stack bits)
<DocScrutinizer05>
nah
<DocScrutinizer05>
that's almost accomplished
<DocScrutinizer05>
afaik
<jonwil>
what? Someone reverse engineered all that funky audio algorithm stuff in pulsaudio-nokia and I didn't hear about it?
<DocScrutinizer05>
your dbus analysis was and is mad useful
<DocScrutinizer05>
we don't really need that nokia stuff
<DocScrutinizer05>
all the fancy audio enhancement in there is already integrated in Neo900 modem and thus not needed in application domain
<bencoh>
part of the pa-nokia stuff is still missing iirc, but you could do without it
<jonwil>
last I checked we do need a lot of it if we want audio that is as good as N900 in various places
<jonwil>
And I believe someone (freemangordon I think) was reverse engineering it all
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes, for e.g. VoIP it's still highly welcome
<jonwil>
yeah we need it for things like skype
<jonwil>
or sip
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, for SIP there are other nice apps that work excellent without any such Nokia audio-enhancement
<jonwil>
there are also parts of it that we dont have (or didn't have last I saw) that get used for all the non-voice audio stuff on N900 too (music etc)
<jonwil>
as for cellular stack, whats the progress there?
<DocScrutinizer05>
possibly
<jonwil>
Is there a repo I can look at for that?
<DocScrutinizer05>
cellular stack is stale for now
<DocScrutinizer05>
it's still same: our modem speaks 3GPP AT
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'd like to see some developer building a fremantle for BeagleBoard and run an AT modem USB stick on it
<jonwil>
for fremantle-on-neo900 my understanding is that we need a daemon that takes in dbus calls from upper parts of the stack (phone dialer, messaging app, telepathy and everything else) and spits out AT commands and other things at the bottom
<DocScrutinizer05>
which would be a perfect emulation of Neo900
<jonwil>
Such a thing didn't exist last time I checked
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes, exactly
<DocScrutinizer05>
(emulation) ... or you even could run such mod on a N900 with USB hostmode
<DocScrutinizer05>
or even with a AT dummy modem
<DocScrutinizer05>
completely in software
<DocScrutinizer05>
after all it's a /dev/<chardevice> that you talk to, whether that's /dev/ttyUSB or ttyACM or dev/modem or whatever
<jonwil>
Unless things have changed since I last saw things, the biggest missing pieces of the fremantle-on-Neo900 puzzle are:1.The missing pulseaudio bits, 2.The cellular services daemon (one that takes in the same dbus interface as the N900 does but spits out Neo900 modem commands and stuff) and 3.The GPS bits (i.e. a replacement for liblocation that talks to the Neo900 GPS)
<DocScrutinizer05>
FSO and ofono used such dummy devices for debug, iirc
<jonwil>
Other than that and the GPU driver, we have basically all the N900 hardware bits we might need
<jonwil>
especially after my work with MCE :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
GPS is a nobrainer
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes
<DocScrutinizer05>
:-)
<jonwil>
I recon my MCE work is some of the best stuff I have ever done
<DocScrutinizer05>
it is for sure some of the best stuff done for fremantle ever
<jonwil>
and probably some of the most useful work I have ever done in terms of benefit to the community that is using it
<jonwil>
It seems like the biggest problem for foss-fremantle is finding people with the skills to handle #1 and #2 on my list AND who have the time and interest to actually write the needed code
<jonwil>
I have neither the skills nor the time
<jonwil>
if I had the skills I would have contributed more to both pulseaudio and cellular already :)
<jonwil>
Too bad the people who break into companies and steal/leak their source code haven't broken into Nokia and leaked pulseaudio-nokia-source.tar.gz or cellular-services-daemon-source.tar.gz :P
<DocScrutinizer05>
pulseaudio-nokia is using that cmtspeech stuff, and we don't need pa-nokia nor the cmtspeech. We "simply" schould replace the complete pa-nokia by a regular PA source/sink
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<DocScrutinizer05>
which in turn would base on aqn ALSA sound card that is the interface to modem PCM
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<DocScrutinizer05>
on an*
<DocScrutinizer05>
stuff gets dramatically simpler on Neo900
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<DocScrutinizer05>
I bet Pali can help to tweak those prolog audio routing things
<DocScrutinizer05>
for a stopgap we could bypass PA completely as soon as dialer comes up, take over on audio and set a "hard" routing using alsamixer and gstreamer
<DocScrutinizer05>
wouldn't allow for that smart handover to bluetooth headsets out of the box, but hey...
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<DocScrutinizer05>
for the cmt cmd stack, yes we could need your expertise on dbus to fire arbitrary AT command sequences (not your first concern to define them) on certain dbus messages/signals, and vice versa
* DocScrutinizer05
doesn't know many maemo devels that have jonwil's insight in the dbus details and who does what on dbus when
<DocScrutinizer05>
jonwil: you noticed we made 1GB RAM work on BB-xM DM3730 ?
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<DocScrutinizer05>
[2015-07-22 Wed 16:36:59] <DocScrutinizer05> ok, gives me ideas: maybe we can have dual-footprint on PCB so we could solder either eMMC or uSD tray
<DocScrutinizer05>
(for a dual-SD concept, dropping eMMC storage)
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<jonwil>
All of the stuff I know about the cellular services daemon dbus interfaces has been posted out there
<jonwil>
I hit a wall trying to figure out anything further
<DocScrutinizer05>
sure, you did an awesome job on documenting / sharing all your knowledge. What counts here on your favor during development though is your experience
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<jonwil>
Anything I can usefully figure out in this area I have figured out and documented
<jonwil>
If there was more I could contribute to the cellular stack, I would have done so a long time ago
<jonwil>
Right now there are possible 4 hopes for further work on the cellular services daemon, first is if someone finds something further documentation/header files for the cellular modem deep in the bowels of the internet (or from some Nokia source) ala the ones from the old wirelessmodemapi.com but matched exactly to the N900 cell modem (or documenting the unknown bits at the very least)
<DocScrutinizer05>
nah :-) you know how development works - you study info, you ponder and then develop a PoC, you run into new obstacles and then it's experience that enables you to figure what's the problem and find the answer needed to get over it
<jonwil>
nope, I already exhausted all possible avenues I have for any further forward movement on the cellular services daemon
<DocScrutinizer05>
did you attach a AT modem?
<jonwil>
I dont know the first thing about AT stuff and would be totally useless for actually writing cellular stuff for Neo900
<DocScrutinizer05>
that's what a community is for
<jonwil>
My skill was in reverse engineering as much as possible of the dbus interface so someone else can take that and write a new cellular stack
<jonwil>
Actually writing code for the new cellular stack is so far outside my league that I dont even wanna thing about trying it
<DocScrutinizer05>
ok
<jonwil>
Second possible hope is if code or headers or dbus interface docs for the cellular stuff shows up or gets leaked (or some ex nokia guy who knows the info appears)
<DocScrutinizer05>
meh
<jonwil>
Third possible hope is if someone who is a guru at reverse engineering code appears who can completly reverse engineer everything
<DocScrutinizer05>
first option is: see what's needed and plumb it to the existing dbus calls
<jonwil>
Forth possible hope is if someone with dbus know-how and far greater knowledge of how lower-level cellular stuff works is able to run tests and figure out from that what the dbus stuff must be doing
<jonwil>
In any case I dont see any of those 4 hopes happening
<DocScrutinizer05>
and I see first option happening
<jonwil>
so now its up to someone else who knows dbus and AT commands to take the info I already figured out plus the documentation for our cellular module and write some code :)
<jonwil>
At least some of the hardware in the Neo900 should just fall into place like the WiFi stuff
<jonwil>
and most of the sensors
<jonwil>
And the camera
<jonwil>
and the keyboard and screen and touch
<DocScrutinizer05>
hardly the latter
<DocScrutinizer05>
they all need new kernel drivers
<jonwil>
Whats special about keyboard and screen and touch?
<jonwil>
We have kernel drivers from n900 kernel
<DocScrutinizer05>
we have different touchpanel and we have different kbd
<jonwil>
kbd should have exactly the same buttons as N900 kbd
<DocScrutinizer05>
buttons, ohwell
<jonwil>
and I dont see why it cant be wired into soc exactly like n900 kbd
<jonwil>
the soc we have I believe has the same hardware interfaces as n900 soc
<DocScrutinizer05>
it's not wired into soc, neither on N900 nor on Neo900
<jonwil>
at least at the logical/kernel/driver level
<jonwil>
ok
<jonwil>
keyboard is wired where?
<DocScrutinizer05>
to tps65950 on N900, to a dedicated kbd matrix scanner chip on Neo900
<DocScrutinizer05>
both are attached via I2C to SoC, but they differ
<jonwil>
What chip is neo900 using for power stuff if not tps65950?
<DocScrutinizer05>
touchpanel chips also differ
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes it uses tps65950, but nikolaus says it's too comlicated to route the traces
<DocScrutinizer05>
so we need the kernel driver from GTA04 hw kbd extension
<jonwil>
and for touch panel, aren't we using same bits (screen, touch, flex cable, multicolor led, front camera) as n900?
<DocScrutinizer05>
for touchpanel we use crtouch12
<jonwil>
are n900 touch panels impossible to obtain or something?
<DocScrutinizer05>
to allow dual-touch aka gesture
<jonwil>
oh yeah forgot neo900 had that feature...
<DocScrutinizer05>
the panel is same, the *chip* differs
<jonwil>
ok
<jonwil>
in any case those chips already exist and people have used them with Linux before
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes
<DocScrutinizer05>
thus drivers exist, just not in maemo
<jonwil>
yeah they just need to be ported
<DocScrutinizer05>
yep
<DocScrutinizer05>
sorry, afk
<DocScrutinizer05>
busy
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<R0b0t1>
Hi I forgot where I read it so I can't check
<R0b0t1>
were keyboards being replaced on the refurbed units?
<R0b0t1>
I think I remember them being sourced
<ZetaR>
R0b0t1: The keyboard is integrated into the PCB, so yeah they are getting replaced. IIRC, the project proposal PDF mentioned that the keymats were probably not reusable (and the height change from the spacer needs to be taken into account), so they are getting replaced too AFAIK.
<DocScrutinizer05>
the keymat is reused, the domesheet is new
<DocScrutinizer05>
no height from spacer takes effect
<DocScrutinizer05>
the domesheet is the white thing sticking on top of PCB. the keymat is the thing with the chars printed on the keys
<ZetaR>
Oh yeah; I confused them for a moment.
<jonwil>
so we were able to find a way to produce a domesheet that is 100% compatible with the Nokia version?
<DocScrutinizer05>
jonwil: not yet, but we will manage it
<DocScrutinizer05>
there are sufficient options to ensure a 100% feasibility
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<jonwil>
seems like ways to source all the required hardware for the Neo900 have now been found
<jonwil>
including the thought-to-be-unobtainable N900 speakers
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, we got "a few" of them, yes. Though we won't really need them, given we source complete N900 refurbished devices now and simply upgrade them - speakers included
<DocScrutinizer05>
the N900 supply however is limited, which is why we want to do sourcing Really Soon Now, and for that we need the down payments
<DocScrutinizer05>
I secured the N900 supply a maybe 4 months ago now, it's about time to really source it or it might vamish
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<jonwil>
I think the #1 problem for the Neo900 project right now is a lack of people with the skills, the interest AND the time to write the needed software for this thing
<jonwil>
I have the interest but not the skills
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<jonwil>
and whilst I have time to do things, there are other things I would rather work on (due to the aformentioned lack of skills)
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<DocScrutinizer05>
we'll get that sorted as soon as working prototypes available - though if anybody was really eager, a N900 and/or a BB-xM is already a great eval-board
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<DocScrutinizer05>
hihi, hackers compltely hijacked a Jeep
<ZetaR>
I heard about that. It sure is reeaal nice of the car manufacturers that we now we have to worry about cell modem security on our cars too.
<bencoh>
:]
<R0b0t1>
ZetaR: ah great okay
<R0b0t1>
DocScrutinizer05: thanks for info
<R0b0t1>
DocScrutinizer05: does domesheet not include buttons?
<R0b0t1>
jonI was going to be testing some of the software I was going to put on my neo900 on this n900 I got