azonenberg changed the topic of #scopehal to: libscopehal, libscopeprotocols, and glscopeclient development and testing | https://github.com/azonenberg/scopehal-apps | Logs: https://freenode.irclog.whitequark.org/scopehal
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<Degi> How good are FFC cables for high speed software?
<Degi> *high speed data lol
<azonenberg> How high speed? :p
<Degi> (Like 2 Gbps max)
<azonenberg> and full custom or just some bog standard ffc jumper?
<Degi> Standard ones
<Degi> Of like 5-30 cm length
<azonenberg> The AKL-PT2 is... about 15 cm in length, and has bandwidth of around 6 GHz
<azonenberg> on flex
<Degi> Does it have a ground plane?
<azonenberg> Yes. It's a 2 layer coplanar waveguide
<azonenberg> But if you're sending 2 Gbps data it's probably differential?
<Degi> Probably will be, but single ended to a few hundred Mbps over a differential layout might be an option too (depending on what is attached)
<azonenberg> in which case you'd probably use ground / dataP / dataN / ground
<azonenberg> repeating for more lanes
<Degi> Yes
<azonenberg> every signal adjacent to a return
<azonenberg> and choosing cabling such that you had the correct impedances
<Degi> I mean if I had ground signal ground and the traces were 0.8 mm wide at 1 mm pitch I'd have 50 ohm heh
<Degi> (But they dont all specify the size of the metal)
<azonenberg> i mean, a pure coplanar waveguide (not grounded) in ffc is totally doable
<azonenberg> just a question of the layout of your specific cable
<azonenberg> how many do you need?
<Degi> Cables? Like a few for prototypes...
<azonenberg> oshpark flex is surprisingly affordable for full custom
<Degi> Hmh, might consider that...
<azonenberg> iirc it's $10/in^2 for 2 layer with enig. They use flex soldermask instead of coverlay and do not support stiffeners, but if you can live with that stackup you can do a 2-layer stackup with ground
<azonenberg> then transition to whatever edge fingers you need to mate with a connector
<Degi> coverlay?
<azonenberg> Most flex stuff doesnt use a lithography-defined mask like rigid PCBs do, although flexible masks do exist
<azonenberg> coverlay is a polyimide sheet, basically thick kapton tape, that's laser cut and laminated to the substrate
<azonenberg> it's more flexible and often has better dielectric properties than soldermask, but since it's applied as a precut solid chunk it has more restrictions than soldermask
<azonenberg> for example, floating islands of coverlay are not possible to fabricate
<Degi> Interesting
<azonenberg> oshpark uses flex soldermask to be more newbie-friendly
<azonenberg> I did initial AKL-PT2 prototyping on that stackup
<Degi> Hm, I think in single ended mode I'd do max. 500 Mbps (more like 200) where a differential layout probably is still okay without too much crosstalk...
<Degi> Neat
<azonenberg> Anyway, not saying you can't do it with premade cables
<azonenberg> Just don't neglect the idea of a custom one as "too expensive" until you run the numbers
<Degi> Yes, thats true
<Degi> I mean for the likes of PCIe that would be neat xD
<monochroma> i have seen PCIe over FFC quite often. and MIPI CSI and DSI is commonly run over FFC
<Degi> Yes, thats where I got my inspiration from, the FFC for the RasPi cameras, display panels etc.
<monochroma> i will say they are not particularly good though for SI (from deep experience)
<monochroma> but.. they get the job done in short lengths
<Degi> Kinda worry about that, for example https://www.mouser.de/datasheet/2/445/6867xxxxx001-473420.pdf would give 100 ohms for a Gnd-Sig-Gnd layout
<monochroma> some slightly nicer systems (IP Cameras) use shielded FFC cables
<monochroma> (just a foil tape layer of some sort wrapping one or both sides of a standard FFC
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<azonenberg> Yeah for anything in the higher speed regime i would definitely do a custom cable
<azonenberg> to have a ground plane
<Degi> Hmh, I guess 1.6 Gbps is kinda on the edge? I mean its 800 MHz BW
<azonenberg> I think you'd be fine
<miek> i guess it also depends on what you want to do with it. if this'll be a tool for your pcie stack development, you don't want to be second guessing signal integrity all the time
<Degi> Nah, nothing that fast
<Degi> 1.6 is just the absolute maximum pretty much, most likely 1 differential and 0.5 single endeed
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