00:18 <redbird> hi

00:19 <redbird> Any active users? I have some questions on the responsiveness of the Sandstorm UI

00:24 <redbird3019> hi

00:25 <redbird3019> Anyone around? I wanted to chat about the responsive part of the UI

00:31 <isd> redbird: hey!

00:32 <isd> ...they seem to be gone.

00:36 <TimMc> Such a shame when people only stick around a couple minutes.

00:50 <isd> & the whole "asking to ask" thing. Just slows things down.

00:50 <isd> But yeah, signs someone is likely still learning to use a communication medium

00:51 <isd> People often have the misconception that IRC is a synchronous medium. That's not *quite* true, and this is the kind of problem that misunderstanding causes.

00:54 <TimMc> If more people used IRC clients with desktop notification capabilities (which would probably involve not running their clients on servers), it probably would be more synchronous.

00:55 <TimMc> But I really hate notifications, for the most part. :-P

00:56 <isd> True

00:57 <isd> And actually I do, but I use a bouncer and was on my bike for the brief while in which the person appeared and then disappeared.

00:58 <isd> But this is the other thing -- folks mentally model it like it's an instant messaging thing, but presence notification is a big part of what makes IM what it is, and that isn't all that reliable for IRC

00:58 <isd> cf. I was "in the channel" despite being outside on a bike.

02:51 <asheesh> isd++ re: "signs someone is likely still learning"

03:25 <pdurbin> I like that IRC doesn't do any presence notification (that I'm aware of). People can lurk. Long silences are ok. People eventually learn that you have to stick around. You have to be patient.

03:28 <TimMc> Relevant: Today's XKCD. :-)

03:28 <pdurbin> yeah, people in Slack showed it to me

15:17 <aeternity> heyhey, when one does sign in at rocket.chat on a mobile phone, what username/password does one provide? server Url is clear (webkey). but username and password?

15:33 <aeternity> can normal sandstorm users set a password instead of logging in via email?

21:52 <isd> pdurbin: I mean, it does tell you who is online and in what channels, and you can set away messages.

21:52 <isd> But that doesn't mean someone is *paying attention*, and your has no way of knowing if you've wandered away from it

21:53 <isd> Add that to the fact that folks like me use bouncers, so I "look" signed in even when my laptop is *off* and I'm in transit or out to dinner or something, and while the presence notification is *technically* there, you can't really rely on it.

21:53 <pdurbin> Yeah. I guess I've never bothered with away messages. I'd rather let people attempt to talk to me and wait patiently for me to respond if I'm able to. :)

21:53 <isd> Doing auto-away when you disconnect is something I want to add to IRC Idler at some point

21:54 <isd> but there are some outright bugs that are more important for the moment

21:55 <pdurbin> How would I be able to tell that you're away? Would your nick change to "isd_away" or something?

21:55 <isd> pdurbin: I just set an away

21:56 <isd> I think if you try to pm me it will auto-respond, and there's *some* way the protocol is able to query the status, so you can inspect.

21:56 <isd> How this manifests is going to be client specific, of course

21:56 <isd> but the protocol has built in support.

21:56 <isd> (just disabled the away message)

21:57 <pdurbin> Ok, I don't know how my client (weechat) handles away messages. I hide a lot of noise with "irc_smart_filter".

22:03 <isd> I'm starting to want something like elk stack in a sandstorm app; would be *really* useful to have good log filtering/search when debugging stuff for IRC idler.

22:03 <isd> (yay yak shaving? :P)

22:05 <pdurbin> oh yeah, I'm watching https://github.com/zenhack/irc-idler

22:06 <pdurbin> isd: you're in Boston? Shouldn't you be shoveling? ;)

22:35 <BlueNinja> got a quick question.. im a little paranoid about who'se accessing my sandstorm server or want to have visibility on this. I opened port 443 on my server so now its open to whoever. One thought was to somehow link that hummingbird grain and dump its code into the homepage of my sandstorm server.. any clever way to do that?

22:49 <isd> pdurbin: :P

22:50 <isd> I'm disinclined to bother while it's *still* snowing. And it's not like I have a vehicle I need to dig out; as long as I can trudge through it I'm fine.

22:50 <isd> If I'm lucky the downstairs neighbors will get the front walk :P

22:52 <ast^^> hi!

22:53 <ast^^> Is it possible to have xxx.sandcats.io domain name if I have a sandstorm hosted in Oasis?

22:53 <ast^^> under free plan ATM

22:57 <pdurbin> isd: yeah, thankfully I ran my errand with the car today. I hope I can bike to work on Monday.

22:58 <isd> You also in Boston?

22:59 <pdurbin> yeah, I like in Brookline and work in Cambridge

22:59 <pdurbin> heading out into the snow

23:01 <isd> Anyone know what the state of JVM stuff in sandstorm is? thinking about rigging up the elkstack thing I mentioned earlier, but elasticsearch is Java, so I'm wondering how much of a pain it will be.

23:11 <BlueNinja> this page: https://docs.sandstorm.io/en/latest/using/how-it-works/

23:11 <BlueNinja> links to this page: (which is a broken link) : https://docs.sandstorm.io/en/latest/using/admin/guide.md

23:11 <BlueNinja> FYI for whoever cares

23:27 <BlueNinja> BUG: Make new Etherpad. Share (by link) READ ONLY access to another user. Other user gets in there, and whereas they can't type they CAN use the markup buttons (indent, unordered list, etc). It changes for the READ only user but the owner (read/write) doesnt see the changes. tl'dr: etherpad should not show markup toolbar for READ ONLY users or now allow changes.

23:28 <BlueNinja> *not allow changes

23:38 <ill_logic> Could somebody clarify the real difference between build.sh and setup.sh? Why does apt-get go in one and virtualenv in the other?

23:38 <ill_logic> It's all stuff that only needs to run once, in the end.

23:39 <isd> ill_logic: build.sh gets run every time you do spk dev. setup.sh only gets run when you vm up for the first time or vm provision

23:39 <isd> Also, setup.sh gets run as root

23:40 <isd> generally, stuff that's going to get touched in your typical edit-compile-run cycle should go in build.sh

23:40 <isd> installing dependencies and such should go in setup.sh

23:46 <ill_logic> I understand that they run at different times (though I didn't know the root part, that's good to know)

23:46 <ill_logic> But like, what if you're also building dependencies?

23:46 <ill_logic> The distinction seems arbitrary. It's all part of the process of putting the package together.

23:47 <ill_logic> It's not like apt-get takes that long when you already have the stuff. Or is that not the point?

23:47 <isd> It's going to depend on the details of course. IRC Idler pulls in most of the go libraries during the build step, but installs the compiler toolchain and whatnot in setup.sh

23:47 <isd> You also can't run apt-get as non-root

23:48 <ill_logic> Right. But supposing a hypothetical alternative where it was root-build.sh and nonroot-build.sh

23:48 <isd> and depending on how vagrant is passing through the filesystem, running stuff as root can result in e.g. object files in your working directory owned by root

23:48 <BlueNinja> security flaw by usage of restoring from trash. Give READ link to another user. 2nd user is in the grain. Then owner removes shared link access (deletes the shared link) .. 2nd user immediately gets the "has been moved to the trash" message but there's a button to RESTORE from trash -- letting revoked user get back into that grain. bad stuff.

23:48 <isd> See also: https://github.com/zenhack/irc-idler/pull/19

23:48 <ill_logic> Sounds like BlueNina has more important business, I'll yield to them.

23:49 <BlueNinja> no, just dropping observances as I use sandstorm from a new deployment standpoint.. yall continue.

23:49 <BlueNinja> or whats the link to post bugs/questions ?

23:50 <isd> issue tracker is here: https://github.com/sandstorm-io/sandstorm/issues

23:50 <BlueNinja> thx o/

23:51 <isd> I believe the website also has an email address for security disclosures

23:56 <isd> Also, BlueNinja: are you viewing both links for the grain from the same browser? sandstorm unifies the permissions a user has, so if you shared a link with yourself, when you visit it you'll still have the access from all of your paths to that grain

23:56 <isd> Would be worth testing doing it while visiting the read link from another browser

23:56 <BlueNinja> no the owner is in chrome. and im being "the second user

23:56 <BlueNinja> " in firefox

23:57 <BlueNinja> (oops.. slipped-enter)

23:57 <isd> Fair enough.

23:57 <isd> kentonv: ^

23:57 <BlueNinja> honestly,its just the moment the system automatically revokes (and thereby trashes the grain) for the 2nd user.. they should just get rid of that restore from trash button, realizing it was a revoke and not a user choosing to trash it

23:59 <ill_logic> Hmm, I'm getting funny error messages trying to log in via email. First try it didn't recognize the token. Second try:

23:59 <ill_logic> "Cannot link an identity that can already log into another account"

23:59 <ill_logic> What's that supposed to mean