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<darix>
libname = ::FFI.map_library_name("yajl") shouldnt that also find the versioned filename ("libyajl.so.2")?
<darix>
otherwise it would require to have the devel package installed for the library.
<darix>
(most linux distros put the .so symlink into the devel subpackage for the library)
<darix>
headius: ^
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<womble>
darix: I always use the versioned soname (minus the leading 'lib') in my FFI library definitions, because the rest of the code in the module is assuming a certain ABI, which is only guaranteed for a given ABI version
<womble>
And backwards-incompatible ABI changes are *supposed* to be indicated with a soname change
<darix>
womble: chef switched to ffi-yajl and that does just uses the things i copied above
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<womble>
darix: Well, I'd suggest that ffi-yajl is Doin' It Rong, then. But the Rufy FFI docs aren't very clear on the subtlties, so it's not surprising people have different opinions on the subject.
<womble>
Practically speaking, though, there are a number of things in FFI that need the dev stuff (ConstGenerator, etc needs the .h files) that it's not surprising that "everyone" would have the devel package installed for yajl.
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<darix>
womble: well. ffi-yajl depends on libyajl2 gem which is basically just abusing gem as package manager to get libyajl installed. luckily there is a way to force it to use the system copy instead of compiling intree copy.
<womble>
*twitch*
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<darix>
womble: dont kick them yet. there are worse gems that dont allow you to prefer the system copy.
<darix>
^^
<darix>
womble: so you think i should require the devel package over the library package for ffi based rubygems?
<womble>
If you don't need any parts of FFI that need the dev headers (ConstGenerator, etc) then you don't need the dev package.
<womble>
Regardless, I'd always recommend specifying the full soname of the library you're writing the FFI definitions for, because otherwise sadness *will* result when a soname bump changes the ABI of some symbol you need, and segfaults result
<womble>
Even though requiring the full soname means a bit more fiddling around (in the ffi_lib method to make things work right on all platforms
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<darix>
womble: is there a documentation which parts off ffi need header files?
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<darix>
then we could have a build time check
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<womble>
darix: I don't think so.
<darix>
ok thank you for your input
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<headius>
darI believe it tries a number of forms
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<headius>
I'm sure it can be improved
<headius>
er, that was for darix
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<dexkiki>
Hi. why does mutiple variable assignment like "var1, var2 = 1, 2" return [1, 2]?
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<whitequark>
it desugars to "var1, var2 = [1, 2]"
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<whitequark>
(that's not *exactly* what happens, but it's close enough)
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<maloik>
hullo :o
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<yorickpeterse>
morning
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<darix>
headius: well in my case it didnt try libyajl.so.2
<darix>
as i would have expected
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<ben_thatmust>
when someone has a moment, #10467 can now be marked as a duplicate of #10533. I reported it to Eric Hodel who also created a bug and solved it
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<nofxx>
Anyone using RethinkDB? From the docs looks like really nice...
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<yorickpeterse>
nofxx: why do you need RethinkDB?
<yorickpeterse>
(that's both an honest and trick question of sorts)
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<nofxx>
yorickpeterse, as in 'why something besides PG' ?
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<yorickpeterse>
replace PG with "any RDBMS" and you're about right
<nofxx>
dynamic fields, no schema... that's the best part of it
<yorickpeterse>
What's bad about having a schema?
<ledestin>
how will you feel in 3 months having no schema?
<yorickpeterse>
I can tell you all about the horrors of not having a schema, but you'll have to sit down for it
<nofxx>
what's good ?
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<yorickpeterse>
"Lets query field X...oh fuck 30% of my data doesn't have field X since it was added later. Shit, now I have to migrate that data anyway, or exclude it alltogether"
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<yorickpeterse>
"Shit <any nosql storage> sucks at migrating large datasets"
<ledestin>
how about even remembering wtf is that data in the field?
<yorickpeterse>
ledestin: well, you use a ORM for that so you can define the schema in the code :D
<yorickpeterse>
then you still have a schema without having a schema
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<yorickpeterse>
nofxx: in all seriousness, 99% of all people don't need schemaless storage engines
<yorickpeterse>
also 80% of all statistics are made up
<nofxx>
to answer ledestin , nosql is way more explicit.... field :foo, type: Whatever, on sql you'll need some kind of 'annotate models'
<nofxx>
to ask yorickpeterse which kinda of spell is that?
<nofxx>
was wondering to write something like that... field :foo, String ... and you run some rake task that checks and creates/removes fields
<yorickpeterse>
euh, I think you're mixing two things up
<yorickpeterse>
In NoSQL there's no schema, thus you shouldn't have to define fields explicitly anywhere
<yorickpeterse>
The moment you are doing that you are defining a schema, and 95% of the use cases of a schemaless storage engine are no longer valid
<nofxx>
you define you schema in the code
<yorickpeterse>
and what benefits does that bring you, besides having to redefine that all over your code base (assuming separate apps using the same collections)?
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<yorickpeterse>
Also, I'm talking about migrating collections with millions of records
<yorickpeterse>
not some collection containing 100 cat pictures
<nofxx>
way faster to start an app from zero, work the beta mode adjusting stuff
<yorickpeterse>
e.g. in Mongo such a migration can easily take an entire day, locking the entire DB at various points in time
<yorickpeterse>
bullshit
<yorickpeterse>
It's no easier to define a schema in a table than it is to code it in a Ruby file
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<yorickpeterse>
In both cases when the schema changes you have to update your definitions, and migrate data
<yorickpeterse>
The process is the same, but when using an RDBMS you get a *huge* amount of guarantees
<yorickpeterse>
Guarantees that are vital to running a stable business
<yorickpeterse>
e.g. a column defined as int(11) doesn't allow string values (MySQL is not a sane RDBMS, so screw that)
<yorickpeterse>
Most NoSQL engines won't give a darn and just insert it
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<yorickpeterse>
So basically the average nosql storage engine is mysql minus the few good parts
<yorickpeterse>
and minus an explicit, database maintained schema
<yorickpeterse>
There are use cases for RethinkDB, etc, but those cases are rare
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<yorickpeterse>
They are cases of people having petabytes of data, huge amounts of data modifications (beyond just inserts), etc
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<nofxx>
yorickpeterse, I agree with you that RDBMS is better, actually what I meant with the code I said is not bring schemaless but a more fun to work with migration process
<yorickpeterse>
I don't think migrating a few GBs of data for an entire day is fun
<nofxx>
and in the same time got schema defined in code
<yorickpeterse>
I'd rather let my DB do that in a few minutes
<yorickpeterse>
I have to admit, I am very bitter when it comes to nosql
<yorickpeterse>
2 years of arguebly the worst nosql engine (mongo) gave me a deep hatred for the concept
<yorickpeterse>
except for those 1 or 2 use cases where it makes sense
<yorickpeterse>
e.g. if you're looking for something to dump random log files in, nosql would make some semse
<workmad3>
yorickpeterse: s/nosql/docdb/ in your case ;)
<yorickpeterse>
especially if that log data is not consistent (e.g. different log formats)
<yorickpeterse>
workmad3: the concept nosql still applies, but yes it's a document store
<workmad3>
yorickpeterse: I've not come across many good use-cases for doc-dbs, and in all honesty the few that I had are now replaced with postgresql using either a JSON or an HSTORE field\
<yorickpeterse>
Haven't used hstore myself yet, so can't really comment on that
<yorickpeterse>
but I will be moving our mongo clusters over to Pg in the coming months
<workmad3>
yorickpeterse: however, the other types of nosql store, such as kv-stores and graph dbs, are, IMO, more useful :)
<nofxx>
worth mentioning, that more than one DB is very easy anyways... actually every app I worked with mongo uses also PG
<yorickpeterse>
oh yeah, definitely
<yorickpeterse>
<3 memcached
<yorickpeterse>
I'd really appreciate proper clustering in memcached though :/
<yorickpeterse>
ElastiCache's cluster setup is not the same
<workmad3>
yorickpeterse: I'm waiting for 9.4 to come out and destroy every claim anyone ever made about mongo personally ;)
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<workmad3>
(pg 9.4)
<workmad3>
yorickpeterse: the initial tests of JSONB in 9.4 seem to indicate it's better (faster) than mongo at being a JSONB document-database... which I find immensely amusing :)
<nofxx>
yorickpeterse, also, when using the field :foo in a RDBMS it's very easy to use anyother nosql, problably won't change any code
<nofxx>
than you'll run something like rake db:up , and some log: creating 5 fields here... creating this one... ops delete this? Y/n
<yorickpeterse>
workmad3: Yeah I recall seeing benchmarks at some point
<yorickpeterse>
nofxx: the same applies to RDBMS'
<nofxx>
and in production mode there's no overload
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<nofxx>
yorickpeterse, I'm talking about the gem I'm thinking about writing.. to replace migrations, use the field on RDBMS, and a rake task to update the schema
<yorickpeterse>
Basically my opinion can be summed up as: unless you are confident (and have proof) that you need nosql, then you don't need nosql
<workmad3>
yorickpeterse: I'm fairly similar tbh, although I'd probably weaken it to 'unless you are confident (and have corroborating evidence) that you need nosql as your primary data store, then you don't need nosql as your primary data store'
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<workmad3>
yorickpeterse: I've no problem with hybrid solutions that use nosql stores for caching, searching, denormalised view data, etc.
<workmad3>
yorickpeterse: but I'm much more concerned if that's the primary data store, rather than a rebuildable, throw-away secondary store
<yorickpeterse>
The point that can be made there is that using a document store of sorts for caching is an overkill, at least compared to memcached
<yorickpeterse>
Unless you have some sort of conditional caching setup
<yorickpeterse>
(opposed to caching data under a single key)
<yorickpeterse>
But like I said I'm bitter, I'll fight any new piece of tech unless I know for certain it's worth it
<yorickpeterse>
e.g. people here were thinking about adding full-text search on our review dataset using CloudSearch
<yorickpeterse>
which is silly since we don't have any particular use case for that, plus Pg already does it
<yorickpeterse>
Granted Pg supports fewer languages
<darix>
workmad3: imho ... if you start to deserialize your data in the sql world you can gain a lot of benefits of the nosql world
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<yorickpeterse>
That is, Pg does like 15 vs 30-something CloudSearch (= Solr) does
<workmad3>
darix: right... but I'm not talking about it being de-serialised inside the database
<workmad3>
darix: or rather, de-normalised (which I think you meant)
<darix>
yes
<darix>
workmad3: imho thats where a lot of the speed of nosql comes from.
<workmad3>
darix: I'm talking about having it properly normalised in the DB, and having a cached, denormalised view of the data
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<workmad3>
darix: which, tbh, you could do inside the database too anyway, with a materialised view
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<yorickpeterse>
funny, this reminds me that we were having Mongo problems just yesterday
<yorickpeterse>
07:00 <ops> ZOMG APPS X AND Y ARE SLOW <me> wuuu...fuck
<yorickpeterse>
Something with the fucking secondaries (yay replication) being slower than a snail
<yorickpeterse>
"Fixed" it using hardcore science (= changing everything to just use the primary, lol)
<yorickpeterse>
But as in the past no single metric showed anything
<yorickpeterse>
neither did mongotop, mongostat, mtop, mongobutts, whatever
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<yorickpeterse>
The day we no longer have Mongo in production is the day I'll be bringing champagne into the office
<yorickpeterse>
and just get wasted during the day
<yorickpeterse>
which is pretty hard with champagne
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<apeiros_>
yorickpeterse: kyr royal
<yorickpeterse>
kyr?
<apeiros_>
oh, *kir
<yorickpeterse>
ah, a champagne apparently
<darix>
yorickpeterse: just need enoug bottles :p
<darix>
or big enough
<apeiros_>
creme cassis + champange
<yorickpeterse>
I know literally nothing about alcoholic beverages
<apeiros_>
the cassis gives it a bit more oomph
<yorickpeterse>
yay 4 more gems to update/release
<yorickpeterse>
out of...20
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<yorickpeterse>
fuck, I have to go through them another time
<yorickpeterse>
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
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<whitequark>
yorickpeterse: ┬─┬ ノ( ^_^ノ)
<yorickpeterse>
( `Д´)ﾉ┳━┳
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<tockitj>
what were those ? (:
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<yorickpeterse>
tables being flipped
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<tockitj>
hahahaa.. awesome
<tockitj>
unicode needs more characters! (:
<yorickpeterse>
( `Д´)=◯)`ν°)
<tockitj>
do you copy paste them from somewhere, or invent them along the way?
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<yorickpeterse>
I have a weechat plugin for it
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<workmad3>
tockitj: on OSX (from at least 10.9) you can also use cmd+ctrl+space to bring up an emoji box to insert some unicode
<tockitj>
cool
<workmad3>
℉ ẫ
<tockitj>
it would be awesome to have some kind of unicode-art
<tockitj>
more characters!
<ledestin>
workmad3: brings up finder for me
<workmad3>
<darix>
that was a really missing feature /oß
<darix>
that was a really missing feature /o\
<workmad3>
ledestin: heh
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<workmad3>
ledestin: bad luck I guess :P
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<yorickpeterse>
only shows gibberish for me
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<tockitj>
or maybe some kind of character set with complex composing rules.. characters which would make it possible to draw one-liners
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<darix>
tockitj: you can combine unicode into a single character with a megabyte in size
<nofxx>
Is there a similar to `included do` for inheritance ?
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<workmad3>
nofxx: 'included do' is ActiveSupport::Concern, not core ruby... it's also just a thin wrapper around defining 'def self.included(base)'
<workmad3>
nofxx: with that, would you care to take a guess for a similar method for inheritance? ;)
<headius>
darix: sounds like a bug worth filing then :-)
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<darix>
headius: 1. while where? ffi-yajl or ffi? 2. to repeat my follow up question from last night: is there any documentation when an FFI binding needs the header files and when just the .so file is enough?
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<workmad3>
houdini: ok, so looking at that shows the issues...
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<sadfuzzy>
where conftest.c is located?
<workmad3>
houdini: specifically, 'conftest.c:15:1: error: too few arguments to function ‘PQconnectdb’ ' in some of the checks, and '/usr/local/pgsql/lib/libpq.so: undefined reference to `pg_sprintf'' in another
<nofxx_>
workmad3, thanks man
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<workmad3>
houdini: I'm going to hazard a guess that you may need a newer version of libpq for postgres 9.4
<houdini>
workmad3: yep, it's incorrect call of PQconnectdb, however I have no file conftest.c
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<headius>
darix: most FFI bindings don't use the header at all
<workmad3>
houdini: conftest.c is created by configure with the content shown in order to perform include and link checks
<headius>
unless they're using something like ffi-gen or the clang one
<darix>
headius: womble mentioned ConstGenerator or so last night.
<nofxx_>
workmad3, what's the elegant way to make an attr_accessor on the subclass? self.inherited(subclass)
<workmad3>
nofxx_: just create it in the base class would be my suggestion
<headius>
darix: yeah that's usually run once on each platform, not at install time
<darix>
aha
<darix>
so it would probably ship as part of the gem?
<headius>
the generated code would, yes
<darix>
although you could run it at build time too
<headius>
you should also see if JRuby can find the .so since the FFI backend is different
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<darix>
headius: i had no time to package it yet
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<darix>
but i will look into it
<houdini>
workmad3: hmm, I see. it's look like gem pg issue, don't understand why it works at other computers
<darix>
houdini: os/distro?
<headius>
darix: package? should be as easy as unpacking a tarball
<darix>
headius: ffi-yajl
<headius>
oh, I see
<headius>
ok
<headius>
well let me know...officially we (JRuby) maintain both FFI impls
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<darix>
FFI.map_library_name("yajl")
<darix>
=> "libyajl.so"
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<darix>
although that file doesnt even exist. libyajl.so.2 does
<darix>
2.1.5 + ffi 1.9.6
<darix>
2.1.4 sorry
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<sadfuzzy>
darix: linux/ubuntu 12.04
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<darix>
the whole code is broken if you use the system copy of libyajl2. libpath = File.expand_path(File.join(Libyajl2.opt_path, libname)) that evaluates to a broken path
<darix>
drbrain: imho gems like libyajl2 should be forbidden
<whitequark>
wow, that whole file
<whitequark>
why
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<darix>
whitequark: why ffi-yajl in first place. there were working yajl bindings already.
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<headius>
that don't work on JRuby
<headius>
darix: ahh they have a lot of logic here...I think you should start with an ffi-yajl bug
<headius>
if it turns out there's something the FFI gem isn't doing we can address that
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<darix>
whitequark headius: can i mention that you find the code in ext.rb weird and unneeded?
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<nofxx_>
module Foo; included do; cattr_accessor :var; ... class A; include Foo ..... class B < A , class C < A........now A, B, C share var. How to have one independent var on each one?
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<hal_9000>
hi! :) who’s around?
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<nofxx_>
Forgot my question, I got it...
<nofxx_>
hal_9000, depends, are you going to try to kill us all?
<hal_9000>
not today :)
<hal_9000>
semi-offtopic — does anyone have a *clear* idea of what "m17n" is, with respect to i18n and l10n? i see what i think are vague and conflicting definitions
<nofxx_>
2001 made me hate computers, monkeys and kubrick
<hal_9000>
haha - you should have read the book first
<nofxx_>
will do someday... wikipedia says "Multilingualisation"
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<womble>
headius: How does one run ConstGenerator once per platform at gem build time and incorporate the results? I'd *love* to be able to not have gcc and dev headers on every machine my ConstGenerator-using gem runs on, but I didn't notice any way to do it once, as it were.
<womble>
For that matter, how does one even get access to every platform the gem might be installed on, at build time?
<headius>
you'd generate them into different files and load the appropriate one for current platform
<headius>
well, that's a separate issue :-)
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<womble>
headius: So most people are running ConstGenerator as part of their build process, rather than in the main lib/ code directly? Got an example I can crib from?
<headius>
I'm not sure about ffi gem users...we do that for JRuby's ffi and ffi-like stuff but we also have a lot of platforms to support and require no build time on new machines generally
<headius>
i.e. there's no build or install step for JRuby, so there's no opportunity to regenerate stuff
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<womble>
headius: I'm coming at FFI from the perspective of "it's better than writing C code", so JRuby and its FFI landscape isn't something I know anything about.
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<womble>
How *does* JRuby's FFI deal with platform-specific constants and such? Does a gem that uses ConstGenerator at runtime fail to work on JRuby?
<headius>
no, it should work fine
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<headius>
FFI on JRuby and MRI should behave identically
<womble>
As long gcc, headers are available, naturally.
<headius>
right
<headius>
so if you want to avoid that requirement you need to generate ahead of time
<womble>
Well, that's a relief.
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<womble>
Which I'd be quite ecstatic to do. I'm a little concerned about how to detect the platform I'm on with sufficient specificity to not end up setting dud constants. Is there a widely-used ConstGenerator-using library that has got the gem-build-time ConstGenerating "right", in your opinion, that I could "gain inspiration" from?
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<headius>
hmm
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<headius>
I guess the examples I know of are all ffi libs used inside ruby impls like rbx and jruby
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<womble>
Ah, bummer. Still, I might be able to get some useful tipe from them.
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<headius>
hmm, or they do it by hand
<headius>
the zeromq drivers for Ruby have an FFI version but I think cremes built the bindings by hand
<headius>
womble: I think this is an open question without a set pattern right now
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<womble>
headius: OK. I might experiment, and perhaps set a new trend. Thanks for your thoughts.
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<headius>
anytime
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