apeiros changed the topic of #ruby-lang to: Ruby 2.1.3; 2.0.0-p576; 1.9.3-p547: http://ruby-lang.org || Paste code on http://gist.github.com
<cads> my last question of the night is this: if I have a URL, is there library that chops it up without regexen?
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<zenspider> odd question: but is there an EASY way to do a multi-file gist? or do I have to do a single file, download the git repo, add the other files, etc...
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<womble> zenspider: I thought there was an "add another file" button on there somewhere...
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<womble> Yeah, bottom left, under the text box.
<havenwood> "Add file" button
<womble> Once the gist is created, to add another file you've got to hit the "Edit" button up the top, which drops you back into the same box you got on the creation, with the "Add file" button in the same place.
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<jdecuirm> Hi!
<jdecuirm> Sorry to bother you!, again! do you know any resource to solve problems, i need to practice Ruby!! as i understand the concept is far difficult to put them in practice! so i need that!
<womble> ohai!
<jdecuirm> Hello womble xd
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<womble> jdecuirm: It's a matter of just "writing programs". I found it very useful, when I was learning C (lo those many, *many* years ago) to rewrite various standard unix utilities. I remember having lots of fun implementing 'wc'.
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<jdecuirm> oh! i got it but is like mmm, like i'm dry from ideas lol, like what can i do to apply mi new knowledge, as i'm a bit curious i perform improvements to the code i write with the book
<jdecuirm> but sometimes i feel i need more and more practice to become a Ruby Ninja xd
<womble> You've got an easy and available test suite (run your program, run the standard tool, see that the outputs match) and you've got a wide range of difficulties of problems (from the trivial, like 'cat', to the amazingly arcane, like 'find')
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<womble> Extending the problems you see in books can be good, too... if you finish solving the problem in the book, but you think, "hmm, it'd be really cool and useful if this also did X", then adding that can be a great experience.
<womble> And you work a *lot* better (or at least I do) at problems that really interest you.
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<jdecuirm> Thanks for the advices womble! i will do that! is just that sometimes that i see programmers do things like nodes or some things like that and i say wuuut!!!
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<jdecuirm> then i see their code and i want to kill myself and so
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<jdecuirm> what is the difference of doing at initialize method self.variable instead of @variable?? D:
<karamazov> Huh?
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<lupine> sellf.variable sends a method call, which may or may not end up returning the value of @variable, depending on the rest of the code
<lupine> (and public/private stuff, etc)
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<lupine> @variable Just Does It
<jdecuirm> weird cuz i tried with @variable and has the exact same thing x_X
<jdecuirm> let me paste some code!
<lupine> if you have an attr_accessor in the public section of your interface, the two are almost equivalent
<jdecuirm> yeah! in fact that is
<jdecuirm> wait xd
<waxjar> people use the send.variable thing in case they refactor and the data no longer comes from @variable
<lupine> my general rule is to set up instance variables in initialize, and access them via attr_accessors in the rest of the class
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<lupine> there's plenty of leeway to break that, of course
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<waxjar> instance variables are faster, that's sometimes something to consider
<lupine> especially if you have some clever logic in the variable= method implementation
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<jdecuirm> i know that self.variable in fact is the current object calling the accessor. but, what is the difference or benefit of doing that way?
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<waxjar> so code that uses self.variable keeps on working even if @variable is no longer used to store the data
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<waxjar> if you previously stored some data in a Hash for example, but later on decide it need to be separate objects, you can just update the variable method to get the data from the new object and everything keeps working
<waxjar> while code that uses @variable will break because it expected a different object.
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<jdecuirm> Wow thanks waxjar! in theory both do the same, but for matter of future changes self.variable can help me to save some time modifying?
<waxjar> yep
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<jdecuirm> thanks waxjar!
<waxjar> yw
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<jdecuirm> unless n == 10 it's exactly like if n != 10 right?
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<imperator> yup
<imperator> though many people hate "unless"
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<jdecuirm> I am one of them xd
<jdecuirm> just is reverse logic like until
<jdecuirm> grrrr
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<jdecuirm> Ruby for loop just access directly the array? :0
<jdecuirm> and and, with ranges?
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<bnagy> the for loop is an appendix, nobody uses it
<jdecuirm> lol
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<jdecuirm> that's why we have each, select, inject, collect for, right?
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<bnagy> etc, yes
<jdecuirm> thanks bnagy!
<bnagy> it's basically a way of saying "I am a python programmer" in your ruby code
<jdecuirm> hahahahaha lol
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<jdecuirm> well i came from obj-c and java, but java loves for
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<womble> When all you've got is 'for', everything looks like an index counter.
<jdecuirm> lol
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<jdecuirm> now i see why everybody loves ruby
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<whitequark> the main problem with the for construct is that scoping for the index variable is broken
<whitequark> >> a = 1; [2,3,4].each{|a|}; a
<eval-in_> whitequark => 1 (https://eval.in/205569)
<whitequark> >> a = 1; for a in [2,3,4]; end; a
<eval-in_> whitequark => 4 (https://eval.in/205570)
<whitequark> otherwise it would be just fine
<jdecuirm> thanks!
<jdecuirm> just the iterators expects code blocks?
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<imperator> for loops are faster, if you absolutely positively need to squeeze out performance
<whitequark> imperator: if you need performance, just use jruby
<whitequark> (and forget about adding silly mri-specific tweaks)
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<imperator> well, that's not always an option in reality
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<jdecuirm> jruby is an interpreter? i have seen that word but i don't know much about it, sounds like java xd
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<whitequark> jruby is a ruby implementation on top of jvm
<jdecuirm> oh, and what are the advantages?
<whitequark> imperator: telling people about microoptimization tricks that are irrelevant in 99% of cases but pollute code is beyond unhelpful
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<womble> If you need to squeeze out performance, you're not using Ruby, full stop.
<jdecuirm> i like java but not as much as it could, it uses a lot a lot of ram
<whitequark> jdecuirm: it's fast, it supports multicore parallelism, it gives you access to java libraries
<jdecuirm> :0
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<jdecuirm> nice to know!
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<whitequark> there's a reason the C implementation is called "MRI", for "matz' reference implementation". key word: reference. you don't use a reference impl if you want speed
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<imperator> no, actually, it's informative
<ohsix> reference informative?
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* womble thought it stood for Matz's Ruby Interpreter...
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<womble> Heh, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_MRI says "Matz's Ruby Interpreter or Ruby MRI (also called CRuby) is the reference implementation of the Ruby programming language"
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<womble> So we're *all* right!
<whitequark> matz explicitly says that MRI is a reference implementation
<bnagy> reference implementations are what you have when you don't have a spec or a grammar ;)
<womble> To be fair, that really just means "if you do things differently, then *you're* wrong", not "this is going to suck, performance-wise"
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<whitequark> womble: context: he was asked about why MRI doesn't support multicore parallelism
<whitequark> so basically both
<womble> Yeah, I've read the backlog.
<whitequark> no, matz was asked, I mean
<womble> Ah.
<womble> And he said, "because it's a reference implementation, you don't get nice things"?
<whitequark> more like "it's not our goal"
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<whitequark> in reality, of course, it would just break the GC, the C extensions and most of interpreter internals, which means you could as well write it from scratch
<imperator> ohsix, i was responding to whitequark, not debating what the "I" stood for ;)
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<whitequark> imperator: "for is faster" is a valid answer to "I profiled my code, optimized my algorithms, wrote microbenchmarks and .each{} is too slow"
<whitequark> in any other case it's just misdirection
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<imperator> you don't control this discussion
<imperator> it's an open forum
<imperator> am i perfectly fucking clear?
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<imperator> bnagy said nobody uses it, so i pointed out why you _might_ want to use it
<imperator> the end
<whitequark> is it a threat or what?
whitequark was kicked from #ruby-lang by imperator [whitequark]
<havenwood> I August Matz did tweet "My vague plan for Ruby GIL is 1) add more abstract concurrency e.g. actors 2) add warning when using threads directly 3) then remove GIL"
<havenwood> In August*
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<whitequark> so it *was* a threat. so much for an "open forum".
<imperator> wasn't a ban
<havenwood> Will be interesting to see if things go in the Actor or Channel direction.
<havenwood> Actor or Agent!
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<havenwood> Prefer the Celluloid or Agent direction?
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<whitequark> the issue is avoiding sharing memory
<whitequark> because if you share memory, you don't really gain anything by forbidding Thread
<whitequark> and it's hard to not share memory when everything is always mutable. nearly impossible, in fact.
<toretore> if there's no thread, sharing memory is not a problem
<whitequark> if you have multicore parallelism, there are threads, by definition
<whitequark> a thread per core, at least.
<toretore> of course
<whitequark> whether you expose it or hide it inside an Agent
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<whitequark> so what happens if you send a mutable data structure (i.e. any Ruby data structure) to another thread? you're back to square one.
<toretore> it's all about messaging
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<whitequark> what?
<toretore> sorry, im kinda drunk right now
<imperator> lol
<toretore> messaging = sharing immutable data
<toretore> sharign is a bad term
<toretore> sending messages
<toretore> not sharing
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<toretore> that's how you avoid sharing mutable data structures
<whitequark> well, there are several issues.
<whitequark> currently, .freezing doesn't guarantee you don't have a mutable structure embedded somewhere inside the thing you send, so you'd have to add .deep_freeze or something
<whitequark> (that actually guarantees that the entire structure is frozen)
<whitequark> the problem is that it breaks a) closures and b) classes
<toretore> ok, but with messaging i mean 0mq or similar, where the message traverses a network bounday, and is immutable by default
<jdecuirm> like freezing a variable containing an array?
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<jdecuirm> the variable it's freezed but not the content of the array
<jdecuirm> sorry i'm getting the context :c
<toretore> if you're talking about immutable data structures, ruby is not the right choice
<whitequark> toretore: serializing and deserializing works, but there are still issues
<whitequark> first, it's very slow
<whitequark> second, you still have classes
<whitequark> what happens when core 1 redefines a method that core 2 is about to execute?
<whitequark> ruby has a *lot* of implicitly shared global mutable state.
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<toretore> wellm yu just gotta deal with that
<havenwood> deep freeze with ice_nine, create immutable objects with adamantium, immutable collections with hamster, conncurrent gems atomic for making ice cream
<whitequark> havenwood: doesn't solve any of the problems I have outlined
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<havenwood> whitequark: some
<toretore> and not do stupid shit like add lobal state or mess around with core classes
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<toretore> concurrency is a very complex topic
<havenwood> i do like looking at the various goodies in concurrent-ruby: https://github.com/ruby-concurrency/concurrent-ruby
<whitequark> toretore: with *any* classes, and the issue is that either you add expensive synchronization or you lose memory safety
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<toretore> of couse, unless you use stuff like stm
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<toretore> also, actors suck
<toretore> too much couplimg
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<toretore> channels bettr
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<toretore> now eat chiken
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<imperator> toretore, clearly erlang is the answer ;)
<toretore> i don't know much about erlang, but i think it's a mistake to blindly copy the actor model
<toretore> i think it's a mistake to think that one paradigm is going to solve all problems
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<toretore> "immutable data will soleve al our problems" ''atrs will vols aall pur cprokems"
<toretore> fuck
<toretore> disregard anything i've said tonight
<imperator> rust!
<toretore> i don't really know o rust does conruenncry
<havenwood> REPL or bust!
<toretore> they have like workers i thingk
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<toretore> so like a pool
<whitequark> mainly they have a type system which allows to eradicate shared mutable state
<whitequark> it doesn't matter which concurrency model you select, then
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<toretore> shared mutable state is the enemy
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<whitequark> and in erlang you just eliminate *all* mutable state, which again makes the concurrency model you select irrelevant
<whitequark> complete anarchy, you could say
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<imperator> hm, someone was talking about transducers here just recently weren't they?
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<havenwood> imperator: i may have been blabbing
<imperator> havenwood, just saw Sarah Mei's tweet. I guess they don't take pull requests/patches
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<havenwood> yeah, i didn't notice that on first pass but it was mentioned in the first issue ticket and i was a bit taken aback
<imperator> strange, i would think their license would solve that
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<whitequark> I guess they don't want to bother with CLA
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<imperator> maybe i should update my license statements in my gems
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<imperator> you send me a pull request, it automatically becomes licensed as per the license of my gem
<imperator> or is that implied?
<whitequark> it does
<whitequark> but what if you want to offer the entire codebase under a different license for some reason?
<whitequark> can't do that without copyright assignment.
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<imperator> and if i own the copyright?
<whitequark> if you have a CLA, you can do that
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* imperator reads up on CLA, Project Harmony
<|jemc|> lol, I was just joking the other day about fabricated commit history in the github contributions graph: https://github.com/hintjens
<|jemc|> although I wasn't thinking about pacman
<toretore> imperator: thx, i've been curois as to how rust does doncuenrcy
<imperator> |jemc|, sorry what? fabricated commit history?
<imperator> is this the reason pull requests have become an issue
<imperator> ?
<|jemc|> imperator: sorry, has nothing to do with the discussion about copyright assignment
<|jemc|> completely non-sequitur
<imperator> ah :)
<imperator> |jemc|, got me curious though
<imperator> what's that all about?
<|jemc|> imperator: he made a perl script to fake a bunch of commits in the past to make his github contributions graph show a nice pacman image
<imperator> toretore, i'm very interested in rust myself :)
<|jemc|> that's the perl script and repo to which the commits are assigned
<imperator> for...resume' purposes?
* imperator isn't sure what a "pacman" page is....i'm old
<toretore> the "public contirbutons" for hintjens looks like pacman ghosts
<toretore> damit to lat
<toretore> e
<|jemc|> imperator: not for resume, just for entertainment
<imperator> oh, haha
<imperator> toretore, you're too latte, less starbucks
* imperator blames Perl for most of the world's problems
<toretore> i like my coffe black, like i like my holes
<imperator> danger wil robinson
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<imperator> TIL there are folks still using PowerPC
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<imperator> bnagy, how goes rbuggery
<imperator> ?
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<bnagy> oh he left :(
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<yorickpeterse> morning
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<tbuehlmann> moin
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<yorickpeterse> Hm, apparently we pushed 55 207 217 SQS messages through Amazon last month
<yorickpeterse> Total cost: $ 27
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<DefV> nice
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<allcentury> very nice
<allcentury> I still wonder what imgur's bill is :)
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<headius> whitequark: for loops don't get their own scope, in order to feel more like a language construct
<headius> that's why the variable is shared with outer scope
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<whitequark> headius: I still think this is broken :p
<whitequark> it's the same problem as .each{} in 1.8
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<whitequark> and god was it annoying in 1.8
<headius> 1.9 doesn't shadow block variables, but a for loop isn't considered a normal block
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<headius> I agree it's weird though
<headius> probably some legacy reason that doesn't make sense anymore, but you can't just introduce a scope now
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<headius> well, you can...for isn't popular and folks using it probably don't declare a new var inside the loop
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<headius> whitequark: your logger is now the official logger for #jruby, btw
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<headius> we put it behind a jruby.org cname but that's about it
<whitequark> oh, cname, I'm not sure about that...
<whitequark> can I take a look?
<whitequark> I mean, http://logs.jruby.org/jruby/ 404s for me.
<whitequark> because I don't handle your cname on my nginx :p
<headius> oh, poo
<headius> I guess I thought it would just work
<headius> we'll set up a redirect on jruby.org for it then
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<whitequark> no need to
<whitequark> I'll alter my config, it's no problem.
<headius> ahh cool, thanks a lot
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<whitequark> hm, I wonder how google would react to content duplication
<headius> google has to be smart about cnames, wouldn't you think?
<headius> otherwise there'd be scads of duplicated content for slightly-different entry points
<whitequark> they are not, or rather, they require <link rel="canonical">
<whitequark> I will add that, no worries
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<headius> whitequark: thanks :-)
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<whitequark> hm, logs.jruby.org/ocaml is weird, let me remove those links maybe
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<whitequark> headius: F5 it, channel list no longer shown on logs.jruby.org
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<|jemc|> :P
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<whitequark> meh. I only intended to make the UI reasonably non-confusing
<|jemc|> yeah, it would be unreasonable to do more - I'm just easily amused
<whitequark> |jemc|: btw, wanna have it on #zeromq?
<|jemc|> whitequark: sounds good to me, but obviously has to be approved by whoever makes those decisions around there and make it in the channel topic
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<|jemc|> I just started rewriting some of my slower ruby+zeromq applications in c+czmq
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<|jemc|> I hadn't really looked at it in depth before but czmq actually makes me enjoy programming in C again
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<whitequark> |jemc|: yeah, sure--if you ever want it enough, drop me a word. it's a single line in my config, so, easy...
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<|jemc|> yeah, if I see pieter on there sometime I'll nudge him about approving it
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<headius> whitequark: oh perfect! I would have been satisfied with just the cname :-) thank you!
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<whitequark> no problem
<headius> |jemc|: what are you using rubinius for btw? just language experimentation?
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<|jemc|> headius: I'm not using it for anything commercial at the moment - although I'd like to when it upgrades to the mcjit
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<|jemc|> headius: In general, I like the internal architecture and I'm really interested in following where it's headed
<headius> sure, that's cool
<headius> it's an interesting design
<|jemc|> and yes, language experimentation is fun :)
<|jemc|> so speed concerns aren't really my driving interest toward rubinius - although I do have speed concerns
<|jemc|> (for some of my projects)
<|jemc|> like the ones I mentioned using zmq
<headius> concerns about the speed of Rubinius or your apps?
<|jemc|> the apps
<headius> ahh yeah...does rbx help?
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<|jemc|> in the current incarnation, it helps a bit, but I can't even test it on ARM so I don't really know
<|jemc|> in general, I don't think any kind of ruby is fast enough for a critical message path
<|jemc|> but it's been great for prototyping
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<|jemc|> we're moving toward writing c libs that do the heavy lifty, supervised by ruby via ffi
<lazee> Hi there! Any users of Escort (https://github.com/skorks/escort) here? As a Ruby newbie I just don't get what the "my_app" in the examples are. I would be really grateful for a quick hint.
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<headius> |jemc|: oh right, ARM
<headius> |jemc|: cool...FFI will mean JRuby can work with those libs too
<headius> not that you're interested in JRuby, but yeah
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<|jemc|> well, we've talked about it
<|jemc|> we're trying to remain ruby-implementaion agnostic for as long as possible
<|jemc|> and if it's time to deliver the product and jruby is what runs best it's what we'll use
<headius> the product is an embedded thingy?
<whitequark> not that modern cortexes have constraints similar to those that "embedded" devices traditionally had
<whitequark> they're basically tiny PCs
<|jemc|> headius: well, custom solutions to individual projects delivered on embedded hardware
<headius> whitequark: well yeah...embedded these days basically just means "small"
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<whitequark> headius: there's still loads of "true" embedded devices
<|jemc|> for us it means "cheap enough to be competitive"
<whitequark> essentially everything except cortex-a, and there is a *lot* more of them than cortex-a's
<headius> |jemc|: cool...able to do any testing on JRuby? Not trying to convince you, but we like to know results
<headius> whitequark: yeah, of course
<headius> there's some smaller ARM chips from TI I'd like to play with some time
<headius> Stellaris I think they're called
<|jemc|> headius: I do plan to benchmark it in jruby when the next incarnation is built
<headius> cool, let me know if anything doesn't work as expected
<|jemc|> so I'll let you know how it turns out
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<headius> |jemc|: that's all I ask, thanks :-)
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<|jemc|> my interest/preference for rubinius as an implementation is largely out of personal interest in the project and its future - when it comes to a product getting delivered to a client personal biases of the team should be outweighed by practical results
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<headius> heh, personal biases
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<headius> I've spent 8 years of my life fighting personal biases
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<|jemc|> headius: yeah, but keep fighting the good fight :)
<whitequark> headius: stellaris is nice
<whitequark> and ti makes excellent hardware in general
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<whitequark> they're also really good at support.
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<headius> whitequark: I need to see if they'll give me a free eval board at their next free event here
<headius> FREE
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<whitequark> headius: just ask for samples on the website
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<whitequark> vendors like giving out free stuff, it costs them nothing and may lead to sales, so...
<headius> I'll do that
<whitequark> they have sent samples to Russia using some kind of Fedex delivery that puts it to your door in two days
<whitequark> and paid for it, of course
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<headius> drones
<whitequark> planes
<headius> an army of stellaris-powered quadcopters
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<whitequark> also there was the case where a circuit based on their SMPS IC (i think) didn't work and they asked for it to be sent to their lab
<whitequark> and then they returned a package saying "use these inductors, they work"
<whitequark> so yeah, I do mean really good support
<apeiros> like… stellar good support?
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<whitequark> :D
<headius> they have some of the actual hardware engineers come to the local conf thing...I've had come good conversations with them
<headius> it's about half TI and half OEMs making stuff or welling TI-related consulting
<headius> selling
<whitequark> nod
<apeiros> *sob*, I wish I knew why copy performance from timecapsule to synology is so horrible :-S (~8MB/s over GB ethernet - it's ridiculous)
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<whitequark> packets too small?
<apeiros> no idea. I wouldn't even know where to start looking :-/
<whitequark> wireshark :p
<apeiros> isn't that windows only?
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<apeiros> oh, seems not
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<yorickpeterse> apeiros: windows only? wtf
<yorickpeterse> I use it for hacking banks on Linux
<yorickpeterse> also sometimes to debug my network traffic
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<yorickpeterse> apeiros: but no, it runs on Windows, OS X and Lunix
<apeiros> yorickpeterse: I've noticed. maybe I confused it with another app, or my knowledge lags
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<masterkorp> hello
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<masterkorp> How do you guys build a gem from a gemspec and and install it locally for testing ?
<|jemc|> masterkorp: gem build and gem install
<apeiros> rm -f *.gem && gem build *.gemspec && gem install *.gem
<apeiros> masterkorp: ^
<apeiros> in the gem dir, that is
<masterkorp> thanks, care to point me to documentation ?
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<|jemc|> masterkorp: use "gem build --help"
<apeiros> gem help`
<|jemc|> masterkorp: and "gem install --help"
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<masterkorp> alright thanks for speeding me up on the learning proccesss
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* masterkorp handles out 2 beers
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<foucist> anyone ever get a has_key? error from code that looks like hash[:something] ?
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<foucist> i.e. trying to trace the error because it was rescued on an Exception of all things
<rkowalick> Does the hash have some custom logic for missing keys?
<apeiros> foucist: care to give the precise exception?
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<foucist> nm
<foucist> it was a library
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<rkowalick> ahh libraries throwing strange exceptions
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<foucist> anyone ever thought about running two ruby processes side by side, feeding both the same input, and comparing the output?
<foucist> i.e. one is production, the other is testing something new
<foucist> return the production output to user etc
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<foucist> would have to have same #random result on both too, etc
<t4nk369> What is it called when one uses the #{}} to insert something into a string? I believe it was something like string polazation...
<rkowalick> interpolation
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<rkowalick> you were close
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<t4nk369> Aha! Thanks a lot.
<t4nk369> That realy bugged me for quite some time now.
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<zenspider> doesn't matter if libraries throw strange exceptions. rescue'ing Exception is almost ALWAYS wrong.
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<|jemc|> it's okay to rescue it as long as you reraise it
<zenspider> pretty much no
<toretore> until you have something in between your rescuing it and reraising it that doesn't work
<|jemc|> ensure, anyone?
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