<yorickpeterse>
but it doesn't work if all of AWS is down :P
<momomomomo>
distributed in one zone?
<yorickpeterse>
or at least SQS, which we use _everywhere_
<momomomomo>
one zone != distributed
<yorickpeterse>
momomomomo: SQS doesn't have different zones, only regions
<yorickpeterse>
for EC2 we always use all zones in eu-west
<yorickpeterse>
same with S3: only regions, no zones
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<momomomomo>
in multiple regions?
<momomomomo>
if one region goes down, then you’re up a creek
<momomomomo>
if you’re across multiple and all are down, then boo aws
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<yorickpeterse>
multi-region setups are a total clusterfuck if you're using elasticache for example
<yorickpeterse>
(which we have in some parts)
<yorickpeterse>
elasticache security policies only work with security groups in the same region I believe
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<yorickpeterse>
Same with RDS, though there you can at least add regular IPs
<yorickpeterse>
(no, we're not using VPC)
<momomomomo>
“By locating the clusters/nodes in different Availability Zones, you eliminate the chance that a failure, such as a power outage, in one Availability Zone will cause your entire system to fail. Testing has demonstrated that there is no significant latency difference between locating all nodes in one Availability Zone or spreading them across multiple Availability Zones. “
<canton7>
it *is* more of a hassle. another example: a snapshot saved in one region can't be mounted in another
<momomomomo>
maybe more of a hassle, but so is losing customers
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<yorickpeterse>
momomomomo: losing customers is not a problem in our setup
<yorickpeterse>
That is, downtime does not result in that
<canton7>
cost of having all your tools handle the myriad of random restrictions and gotchas imposed by multiple regions, vs the cost if a region goes down
<yorickpeterse>
I could literally pull the plug of a whole bunch of systems and we'd be fine
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<momomomomo>
eh, I handle multiple dc with hardware, I imagine using an API is a little easier
<yorickpeterse>
and again, in this case it seems SQS was down
<yorickpeterse>
which only has regions, not zones
<momomomomo>
though, the ‘gotchas’ are a bummer, no doubt
<yorickpeterse>
You can not do cross-region SQS, they'd be physically separate queues
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<yorickpeterse>
either way, seems AWS got its stuff back together
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<momomomomo>
right, but witha backup, queues can be offloaded while the healthcheck detects that SQS 1 is down
<momomomomo>
to SQS 2 in region 2
<yorickpeterse>
momomomomo: No, that's impossible
<momomomomo>
lol it’s impossible to have two queues?
<yorickpeterse>
You can not have a queue itself automatically pump stuff over to another queue in a different region
<yorickpeterse>
The redrive policy of SQS is region specific
<momomomomo>
I’m not syaing that it dumps its contents (it’s already down)
<momomomomo>
I’m saying you can redirect traffic via route 53
<yorickpeterse>
I never said this involved route 53
<yorickpeterse>
or any web traffic for that matter
<yorickpeterse>
These are all background processes, SQS is literally all they use (and some of them our DBs, those are doing fine)
<momomomomo>
well if you’re resolving an IP to send to the queue, route53 can handle that
<momomomomo>
queue.mydomain.com directs to two servers while both are healthy; then, when one dies, it detects that, and only routes to one
<momomomomo>
when it’s back up, it directs to two again
<yorickpeterse>
....you have no idea what SQS is do you?
<momomomomo>
it’s a queue
<momomomomo>
but new messages can still be sent while one is down; the previous messages will take longer to get through (until that region is back up)
<yorickpeterse>
There's no EC2 instance to redirect traffic to, in fact, no traffic is going to EC2 directly
<yorickpeterse>
The setup you're describing requires sending traffic to EC2 instances behind an ELB, only to have those send it to SQS
<yorickpeterse>
That's an incredibly complex way of doing multi-region SQS
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<momomomomo>
yorickpeterse: example coming up.
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<momomomomo>
or, group them (as suggested) randomly
<momomomomo>
set the random groupings to a single domain
<momomomomo>
ie: queue.mydomain.com
<momomomomo>
healthcheck to your requirements
<momomomomo>
you can do your drive etc. but still ensure that new entries don’t hit the down servers
<yorickpeterse>
That doesn't really help, you'd still have to handle the routing of traffic to the correct SQS endpoint
<yorickpeterse>
Using R53 as a monitoring solution for SQS is kinda crazy
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<yorickpeterse>
it's no more complex for me to just copy some of the affected parts to a different region
<yorickpeterse>
Or to modify the apps so that they can switch SQS regions
<momomomomo>
eh, depends on your application; I tend to think more of decoupling my consumers from producers
<momomomomo>
thus the queue can be consumed by any consumer at any point
<yorickpeterse>
ehm, we have that
<momomomomo>
so it works easily, smoothly
<momomomomo>
so then why do you have to route to the ‘correct’ sqs endpoint?
<yorickpeterse>
we don't?
<yorickpeterse>
I never said that
<momomomomo>
route53 handles the removal of a down server
<yorickpeterse>
The problem is this:
<momomomomo>
yorickpeterse: That doesn't really help, you'd still have to handle the routing of traffic to the correct SQS endpoint
<yorickpeterse>
we have N applications, independently using various AWS services
<yorickpeterse>
momomomomo: I'll get there in a sec
<yorickpeterse>
If one of those AWS services is down across the entire region, zones become useless. Then, you'd have to move regions
<yorickpeterse>
In this case only SQS was down, so you'd only have to move that
<momomomomo>
right, but you’re doing this manually
<yorickpeterse>
You can just handle that in your application: get a "aws down error"? Switch to us-east-whatever
<momomomomo>
my situation: the consumers an dproducers automatically detect which are down
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<momomomomo>
via dns
<momomomomo>
no if else
<yorickpeterse>
In your setup I'd have to not send my messages directly to SQS, but instead send it to a fucking EC2 instance via Route53
<momomomomo>
no keeping track of what zones im using
<yorickpeterse>
which then sends it to SQS
<yorickpeterse>
that's batshit crazy
<momomomomo>
no
<momomomomo>
why would you do that? my imgur link showed a route 53 health check for sqs
<yorickpeterse>
If you're only using the health checks it's even crazier
<yorickpeterse>
That literally offers nothing better than the app reacting to an error
<momomomomo>
so I resolve queue.x.com to east one time and maybe another zone the next
<momomomomo>
sure it is: this is automatic and doesn’t require tracking or code
<yorickpeterse>
it's like saying "we use pingdom to check if a URL is not working before we request said URL" - just request it, handle the error, done
<momomomomo>
not really
<yorickpeterse>
Perhaps we're talking about different things, but I prefer systems more of the Erlang way: just deal with failure
<momomomomo>
it’s more akin to “I test if my server is down every 5 seconds, then, if it is, I automatically redirect all traffic to the UP server"
<yorickpeterse>
In this case our handling is quite simple: log error, retry in a short amount of time (that is handled by SQS itself)
<momomomomo>
and nobody keeps track of any state
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<yorickpeterse>
we don't lose data, customers never notice, etc
<momomomomo>
how would you lose data in this set-up? if the server comes back with the data, it’s added back to the dns
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<momomomomo>
and can be set to resolve 50/50
<yorickpeterse>
"the server" what server, SQS?
<momomomomo>
yes
<yorickpeterse>
If you're _only_ using the health check, you still have to handle the redirecting yourself
<momomomomo>
dude
<yorickpeterse>
Unless you're sending SQS messages via your own Route 53 line
<yorickpeterse>
which is....stupid
<yorickpeterse>
(surprise, AWS already does that for you)
<momomomomo>
that’s like saying “I’m using linux to use tmux"
<momomomomo>
route 53 has routing built in
<momomomomo>
that’s assumed
<yorickpeterse>
ugh, you're missing the point
<workmad3>
it's times like this that I wish I liked popcorn
<yorickpeterse>
If you want to let Route 53 route the SQS traffic you *have* to submit your SQS messages to Route 53 so that whatever sits behind it redirects it
<yorickpeterse>
That basically means I have to MITM the AWS API
<yorickpeterse>
(or proxy, or w/e you'd call it)
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<momomomomo>
yep it adds little overhead
<yorickpeterse>
"little"
<momomomomo>
and automatic failover
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<momomomomo>
little as in transport time
<yorickpeterse>
here's how you do automatic failover in a few lines of Ruby:
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<momomomomo>
lol right, after you create your new sqs instance?
<yorickpeterse>
begin; ....; rescue SomeNetworkError => error; retry_in_us_east(message); end
<momomomomo>
and send over the actual ip/path of the sqs instance
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<momomomomo>
to your code
<yorickpeterse>
(assuming the region is down, otherwise you can just let SQS itself handle it)
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<yorickpeterse>
SQS instance? ip path? Now you're just making shit up
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<yorickpeterse>
Perhaps we're talking about two completely different things, but you're not making any sense
<workmad3>
screw it... it tastes like cardboard, but it's context-appropriate...
* workmad3
munches popcorn
<yorickpeterse>
momomomomo: jebus, read above, I've explained why that is nuts
<momomomomo>
damn, I made that url up
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<momomomomo>
eh I guess it’s just two different ways of handling redirection
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<momomomomo>
1) code it in, and pass knowledge of your SQS to your app (or get it from the amazon api on a trip), or 2) automatically do this via a middle layer
<momomomomo>
at dns
<yorickpeterse>
workmad3: the popcorn part only works if two oblivious dumbasses are discussing things, this is not the case
<yorickpeterse>
momomomomo: ok trick question
<yorickpeterse>
momomomomo: now what if Route 53 is down?
<yorickpeterse>
(assume for a minute your DNS is not cached)
<momomomomo>
route 53 aims for ~100% uptime; you should use multiple dns resolvers anyhow
<momomomomo>
if you’re aiming to surpass route 53 that is
<momomomomo>
which I doubt will happen
<yorickpeterse>
or instead of smacking service on top of service (e.g. 15 DNS services just so you have a theoratical 100% uptime), you just handle it gracefully on app level in the first place
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<yorickpeterse>
In this particular case of my apps that's as simple as "Fukit, we'll try again in 15
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<yorickpeterse>
....you should know SLAs are bullshit
<yorickpeterse>
there's no such thing as 100% uptime
<yorickpeterse>
or 99%
<yorickpeterse>
or 99,12398123901829038%
* workmad3
is happy with π% uptime
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<yorickpeterse>
SLAs are there to keep the lawyers happy, that's all
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<whitequark>
well, SLAs make sense if they actually incur some kind of liability to the provider
<momomomomo_>
oops, d/c
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<yorickpeterse>
whitequark: exactly, lawyer stuff
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<yorickpeterse>
"I can charge you X amount of money because you didn't meet your SLA"
<yorickpeterse>
it doesn't actually mean that the laws of physics state you'll actually have 99,99% uptime
<momomomomo>
amazon only applies credits; 5 minutes gets you a day, >4 hours gets you 30
<whitequark>
yorickpeterse: it means that you'll either have 99.99% of uptime or die as a company
<whitequark>
well
<whitequark>
or compensate the losses, but in practice you'll probably die
<whitequark>
which is essentially the point
<workmad3>
momomomomo: so route 53 could be down for 29 days out of a month and you'll get a month free... not exactly appropriate compensation if a service relies on it
<momomomomo>
workmad3: right but I trust route 53 and accept that their 100% guarantee at their word
<yorickpeterse>
whitequark: exactly, so in our setup we can deal with that
<yorickpeterse>
if SQS is down tough luck, we'll just have delayed data processing for a while
<whitequark>
yorickpeterse: that means you don't *need* an SLA.
<whitequark>
which is fine.
<yorickpeterse>
whitequark: correct, we don't have one either I believe
<whitequark>
but there are people who absolutely do need an SLA.
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<yorickpeterse>
My point being, you might need one, but it's not going to actually prevent/solve the problem, it will only compensate for it
<yorickpeterse>
(but by then the damage has already been done)
<whitequark>
disagree
<whitequark>
the company bound with SLA doesn't want to die, so they maybe won't hire incompetent assholes
<whitequark>
I mean, it's not a very hard guarantee, but it's still *something*
<momomomomo>
silly silly
<momomomomo>
the arguments have changed so much
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