<erikh>
if you're almost finished the pickaxe, it's probably too easy.
<Senjai>
and I've done almost everything there is on Codecademy
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<erikh>
cool. what do you want to do with your newly found programming knowledge?
<Senjai>
It's really hard to describe my 'competency'. I mean, to solve problems, the hardest part for me is learning libraries, or understanding how they work. I ask lots of questions on stack overflow, but the actual syntax isn't really a problem for me.
<erikh>
if "get paid" is the only thing you can come up with, you're in for a very rude awakening.
<erikh>
levels are for corporations that manage tens of thousands of people
<erikh>
you either have a good idea, or you don't, and if you're an expert or a hacker, someone else will let you know.
<bnagy>
god I hate IRC bots
<erikh>
there's some zen for you
<erikh>
bnagy: ?
<bnagy>
looking at the program ideas :)
<Senjai>
The TL;DR of it is: I went into business school because my boss offered me a great opportunity if I did. Just before graduating high school I was really into C++ and DIrectX. I recently dropped out favoring what I love to do over money
<Senjai>
So now I'm going back to where I started
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<bnagy>
that's a great idea, btw Senjai
<Senjai>
Trying to make a career out of what I love, rather than what makes me money
<Senjai>
That's where I am now
<bnagy>
not enough people write down actual ideas for stuff to write. It's a common, and annoying question in here
<erikh>
Senjai: ok, so I dropped out, smoke a shitton of weed for about 4 years, and then got my GED, dropped out of college twice.
<erikh>
you can do it, but tell your past to GFY
<Senjai>
GFY?
<Senjai>
bnagy: whats a good idea?
<erikh>
Senjai: look at cinch if you want a bot framework.
<Senjai>
I decided on an IRC bot because it would involve threads, sockets, and parsing. Hopefully I can find a library that can abstract some of that away.
<Senjai>
erikh: I heard of that.
<erikh>
I have a couple of bots I wrote in it, and I happen to like the author
<Senjai>
erikh: One of the problems I think I struggled with when I was younger, is the incessant need to reinvent the wheel
<erikh>
ok
<erikh>
so,
<erikh>
gem install cinch
<erikh>
read some examples
<erikh>
write a bot that joins a channel and prints "hello world"
<Senjai>
erikh: A part of me wants to design a framework from the ground up, so I can understand everything thats going on. The other part of me says thats not important, and just to use libraries that exist.
<erikh>
once you get a win you'll stop feeling like sisyphus
<erikh>
but until you do something to do that, you're just gonna, well, whine about not getting anywhere
<erikh>
that's real talk.
<Senjai>
I mean, there was this challenge someone posted on Codecademy, and I thought it was a great way to get used to the CSV library. It was the first time I used it, and figured it out entirely from the documentation.
<Senjai>
I was pretty proud of it when I finished it
<erikh>
hm
<erikh>
ok, great.
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<Senjai>
I had to figure out the delete_entry method with the File class and some help on stack overflow though. But I figured after that, the only way to learn is by doing, rather than studying..
<erikh>
so, I'm going to be direct
<erikh>
less talky, more code-y
<erikh>
if you want to get better.
<Senjai>
haha yeah.
<Senjai>
I've been coding all day, decided to pop on the irc channel and introduce myself
<erikh>
cool
<erikh>
well, it's memorial day in the states and almost 8pm
<Senjai>
Particularly to see if anyone was close by or around my level that wouldnt mind working together.
<erikh>
which means almost nobody is here.
<Senjai>
lol yeah.
<erikh>
just us schlubs who wanted to take the 3 day weekend to fix their aging servers.
<dominikh>
holiday my ass, I've got a test in university in 5 hours.
<Senjai>
aging servers? Are you a sysadmin?
<Senjai>
Good luck dominikh
<dominikh>
thanks, but it won't help ;)
<Senjai>
What are you studying?
<erikh>
Senjai: by trade, sort of.
<erikh>
I do devops work
<Senjai>
ahh
<erikh>
automation and toolsmithing
<dominikh>
studying applied computer science. the test, however, is on japanese
<Senjai>
Its funny you mention that
<Senjai>
I plan on going to bcit for Mechatronics and Robotics
<Senjai>
dominikh: My girlfriend is Japanese, unfortunately she isn't here and can't help you ;)
<dominikh>
heh, lucky you
<erikh>
wait
<erikh>
mechatronics, is that like, the study of drawing giant robots?
<Senjai>
It's kind of synonymous with automation.
<erikh>
... i coudln't resist
<Senjai>
lol
<Senjai>
I worked at a beer warehouse as an operator for this 5,000 sqft gantry machine
<Senjai>
One of the controller programmers introduced me to what kind of work it entailed
<Senjai>
So I applied for Mechatronics and Robotics/Computer Systems Technology (basically programming) dual diploma for this January.
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<erikh>
Senjai: I'd strongly encourage you to, if you wish to do programming all day, to get a computer science degree.
<erikh>
I wish I had finished mine.
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<Senjai>
erikh: I will eventually, I would rather start with a diploma though. BCIT has a really good comp sci diploma program. Over 90% are employed in the field 3 months after grad.
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<Senjai>
If i can get an internship from teaching myself though, I wouldn't complain
<erikh>
that's not the point of a comp sci degree, jobs are easy to find once you've been in the field for a bit.
<erikh>
the interesting stuff goes to comp sci people
<erikh>
don't feel compelled to listen to me though -- ask others who have been in the industry for a while.
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<Senjai>
erikh: I always try and get as much advice from as many as possible. What do you mean by the interesting stuff?
<erikh>
Senjai: what's interesting to you?
<erikh>
OS-level, video and audio, high volume data processing
<Senjai>
Application development. Utilities and tools, things that make existing things better. Controller/HMI programming..
<erikh>
all require math and computer science skills.
<erikh>
compilers, tons of other stuff.
<erikh>
without those skills, well, I hope you like web apps.
<Senjai>
I see your point.
<Senjai>
I actually feel limited by my math already
<erikh>
yeah, it only gets worse
<Senjai>
why dont you complete a cs degree part time, or online?
<erikh>
I will be once I can move out of this infernal place.
<erikh>
I'm near stanford, but ... stanford
<Senjai>
where is this 'infernal place' if you dont mind my asking.
<erikh>
berkeley is where I'm hoping to end up
<erikh>
menlo park, ca.
<Senjai>
Oh, nice
<erikh>
wonderbreadville
<Senjai>
Howd you get into your gig that your in now
<Senjai>
if you have no degree
<erikh>
I applied
<erikh>
I have about 15 years experience.
<Senjai>
yea but how did you get started..
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<Senjai>
at what point do you feel your skills are.. competetive
<erikh>
I was working in a convenience store and playing counter-strike all day when I was not working, baked off my ass
<erikh>
then I wrote a little bot for counter-strike that managed users for the admins
<Senjai>
ahh.
<erikh>
one of the guys that ran the server worked at a rather big online bookstore based out of portland -- the CTO
<erikh>
hired me
<erikh>
that's how this shit happens man.
<Senjai>
wow nice
<Senjai>
I just thought I should make everything public, all the projects I work on etc
<erikh>
anyhow, work on your portfolio either way
<erikh>
CS degree + no portfolio == job cancer
<Senjai>
And eventually someone would catch an eye or something
<erikh>
that's a really good idea.
<erikh>
well, don't expect anyone to catch an eye
<erikh>
but be sure to mention it on your resume.
<Senjai>
A dev from San fransisco said he'd be willing to have a skype call with me tmrw.
<erikh>
excellent!
<Senjai>
I emailed him some questions i had on one of his libraries he made.
<erikh>
there are a lot of jobs here, but the cost of living is pretty high
<Senjai>
And had a bit of a back and forth there.
<Senjai>
I cant get to SF
<erikh>
but vancouver is no better from what I hear.
<bougyman>
if you want a job quick, learn chef and/or puppet.
<bougyman>
devops are in short supply, it's a seller's market.
<erikh>
^
<Senjai>
Really?
<bougyman>
Yes, really.
<erikh>
heh.
<erikh>
yes.
<bougyman>
We're begging for more, on our team.
<erikh>
bougyman: :)
<Senjai>
But I have no idea what Chef really does? I know it "makes managing a system easier"
<bougyman>
gem i chef.
<bougyman>
go throught the chef-solo tutorials.
<bougyman>
or puppet, or both.
<erikh>
Senjai: how much do you know about unix?
<Senjai>
erikh: Enough, I read some of the sysadmin guides from tldp.org. I'm using Kubuntu 13.04 now. I have an ArchLinux VirtualBox.. Thats about it.
<Senjai>
I can use it, put it that way
<erikh>
ok, cool
<bougyman>
You know enough.
<erikh>
heh
<erikh>
yeah, as much as I hate to admit it
<bougyman>
We were hiring rails devs and trying to teach them sysadmin
<bougyman>
they knew far less.
<bougyman>
of course, they didn't work out....
<erikh>
bougyman: where are you at?
<bougyman>
erikh: sonian
<erikh>
bougyman: oh, with the sensu guy, right?
<bougyman>
Yesh.
<Senjai>
but what does a devop DO exactly.. besides 'reinvent web 2.0' as erikh put it
<bougyman>
The sensu guy now has his own gig.
<erikh>
ah, cool
<bougyman>
Senjai: we make infrastructure with software.
<erikh>
that's right he went to heavywater
<arubin>
Senjai: A DevOp is a sys admin who can write code and uses these skills to automate things.
<bougyman>
We're still all commiters to sensu, though.
<erikh>
I talked to AJ once but ended up going elsewhere.
<erikh>
cool
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<erikh>
it looks like a neat system, just never had the opp to set it up
<Senjai>
bougyman: that sounds amazing! :P
<erikh>
I'll have to show you what I'm trying to do with furnish sometime
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<bougyman>
erikh: i'm working on incorporating central syslog analysis in sensu metrics.
<bougyman>
I agree, many people probably build these tools internally.
<bougyman>
We just finished the approval process for open sourcing it.
<erikh>
bougyman: is it capable of being a library?
<erikh>
waiter, that is
<bougyman>
erikh: it was a library.
<bougyman>
they're turning it into an api, now.
<erikh>
that's the thing about furnish
<bougyman>
I'm not so sure I agree, and we may still go back to lib-only.
<erikh>
I needed it for chef-workflow because of things -- well you know how vagrant is
<erikh>
I doubt I have to explain.
<erikh>
I think it's absolutely ironic that it's so hard to automate it
<erikh>
oh well, I think I'm going to walk away from yet another big project, heh
<erikh>
just no time these days.
<erikh>
at a puppet shop anyhow.
<bougyman>
Ah right.
<Senjai>
so bougyman, Just kind of glancing over this. Chef is something that would allow you to quickly configure a system, or run a set of tasks on a system, almost instantly as needed?
<bougyman>
There are some things I love about puppet.
<bougyman>
The diagnostic power of it, for sure.
<bougyman>
But it's not as easy to make a Big role or whole stack with puppet.
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<erikh>
nope
<erikh>
dunno, these guys are pretty open to change, so maybe we'll move to chef.
<bougyman>
Senjai: and keep the running state and installed and configure software the same, yes.
<bougyman>
erikh: wow, you are duplicating a lot of the work our team is.
<erikh>
I started in october.
<bougyman>
they've added a vagrant/test mode to waiter.
<Senjai>
bougyman: Oh, so this could accomplish something similar to what Citrix does?
<bougyman>
also a direct lxc test mode, i think.
<erikh>
nice.
<bougyman>
Senjai: closest thing i've used to it was cfgengine
<erikh>
bougyman: let me know what happens with the lib thing?
<erikh>
if I can punt furnish I wouldn't mind
<bougyman>
I will, I will. I have a feeling they're release the api version.
<erikh>
I'd rather consolidate but mitchell is f'n impossible
<Senjai>
And there is a demand for people who understand Chef and how to make receipes? I would love to learn this!
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<bougyman>
Senjai: yes, and it's easy to learn.
<bougyman>
Easier to learn sysadmin with chef than with shell, I think, even.
<bougyman>
chef's weakness is in debugging.
<erikh>
heh
<bougyman>
they have this shef thing, (now renamed) that's supposed to be like a repl for it.
<Senjai>
I'll definitely look at this! I'll have finished the Pickaxe before I go to bed tonight. (well, up until the reference starts)
<erikh>
I've never had much success using shef
<bougyman>
but it does not replicate all the runstate of a real chef run, so it falls short.
<bougyman>
^
<erikh>
well the other thing is that so many cookbooks presume solo
<bougyman>
Yes, I have expectations... Like: Load my damn role attributes!
<Senjai>
Any book reccomendations?
<erikh>
or can't be tested with search
<bougyman>
without that it's pretty useless.
<erikh>
bougyman: you're not supposed to use roles, remember? :P
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<bougyman>
Senjai: the opscode docs are the best.
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<bougyman>
erikh: hahaha, right.
<bougyman>
roles are necessary.
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<erikh>
fun fact, so, myself and bluepojo architected the original version of berkshelf.
<bougyman>
Oh yeah?
<bougyman>
the other guys are playing with that now.
<erikh>
jamie came in after it was working
<erikh>
with all his thought leadership
<Senjai>
bougyman: Wow, it looks really well documented. I'll start going through them tomorrow. I don't suppose either of you would be open to suggesting challenges and stuff for me along the way would you?
<erikh>
totally not mad
<bougyman>
Senjai: it is. There are frustrations, but such is the way with any software as large as chef.
<erikh>
lockfiles still don't work, and it still doesn't realize it's not really bundler
<bougyman>
Nothin's perfect, but it sucks less.
<erikh>
for cookbooks that is
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<erikh>
just don't treat it like anything in git matters, and you won't get bit
<bougyman>
We'll see. They've got a grand scheme involving berkshelf, 130 git repos, auto-ci, the Moon and 7 levels of Hell.
<bougyman>
or something like that.
<erikh>
hahaah
<erikh>
they finally sped up git repos
<bougyman>
The "Community Cookbook" vs "Forked Private Repos" battle swings like a pendulum here.
<erikh>
after jamie broke it like a year ago
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<erikh>
I'm pretty big on the latter.
<Senjai>
Alright, but whats a good goal, or something I could write when I 'understand' chef
<bougyman>
same
<erikh>
Senjai: set up a webserver.
<Senjai>
it's not like I have a server cluster, or can run 20 odd VM's off of my laptop
<bougyman>
Senjai: simple stuff. make it autosetup a webserver.
<erikh>
without using community cookbooks.
<Senjai>
erikh: just a webserver?
<bougyman>
then a webserver with a wails app.
<erikh>
yep
<Senjai>
erikh: but that isn't that hard
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<bougyman>
then: Rocketship.
<erikh>
Senjai: it will teach you chef.
<Senjai>
bougyman: I dont know what wails is..
<erikh>
you already know how to set one up. that's good.
<erikh>
now do it with chef.
<bougyman>
Senjai: i just meant a web app.
<Senjai>
ok
<Senjai>
Whats Rocketship /me goes to googl
<Senjai>
Err, i actually need to know what Rocketship is, google isnt that helpful
<Senjai>
So just using chef to set up apache2, php5, mysql, all together would be a good start?
<Senjai>
like a default LAMP installation
<erikh>
Senjai: a joke
<erikh>
rocketship was a joke.
<erikh>
point is, start simple.
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<Senjai>
Durr, I thought it was the name of an http server, or widget
<Senjai>
alright
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<Senjai>
Thanks for your help, I'll get back to coding now.
<erikh>
enjoy
<bougyman>
Sorry for rocketship.
<bougyman>
I guess software names are so varied now it could in fact be a webserver.
<erikh>
heh
<erikh>
indeed.
<bougyman>
i have horrible memories of bad software names in this community.
<bougyman>
remember "God" ?
<erikh>
haha
<erikh>
you mean the thing that mojombo wrote to leak memory on severs?
<bougyman>
Yeah, the unsupervisor
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<erikh>
I think injekt maintains that now
<erikh>
and it probably doesn't leak memory anymore
<bougyman>
so many supervisors were made back then...
<bougyman>
bad case of ABW, if you ask me.
<erikh>
ABW?
<Senjai>
You two on #ruby-lang often?
<bougyman>
I've been using runit since the late 90s, it's never failed me.
<bougyman>
Already Been Written.
<erikh>
ha
<erikh>
runit is not bad but it's not good at coordination
<erikh>
have you seen circus?
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<bougyman>
It's wonderful at coordination.
<bougyman>
With runit I even do capacity management.
<erikh>
oh we are not going to talk about your 30 shell scripts
<bougyman>
It will spin up other servers to take load if one gets overrun.
<erikh>
you know what I mean :)
<bougyman>
Yes, and you know what I mean, runit is infinitely coordinatable.
<bougyman>
It's just about the plumbing.
<erikh>
if you write the tooling it is
<erikh>
right
<erikh>
I've had this idea -- which is more or less present in circus -- which is having a quorum of servers coordinate rolling restarts
<erikh>
as a part of the process management system
<bougyman>
Simple coordination is simple, though.
<erikh>
I guess I could just write something with ZK or doozer that drives runit
<bougyman>
echo sv d other_service > /service/main_service/finish, etc.
<erikh>
that might be good.
<erikh>
right
<erikh>
hmmmmm
<erikh>
too many ideas.
<erikh>
and I want to write a bootloader to learn that stuff.
<bougyman>
want another?
<erikh>
haha
<erikh>
no.
<bougyman>
sensu driving runit driving architecture decisions.
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<erikh>
there are people doing that.
<erikh>
not sure how much I can say -- but it's being done, it was supposed to be unveiled at surge, not sure if that happened.
<bougyman>
Nope, I was at surge.
<bougyman>
I talked so some of the guys working on it.
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<bougyman>
We hired one.
<erikh>
nice
<bougyman>
I was impressed with the monitoringsucks conf, it was brainier than surge. Surge was a lot of Vendorisms and recruiting.
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<erikh>
yeah? I never go to cons
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<erikh>
ok, I need to go finish up this server crap
<erikh>
I'll bbl
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<apeiros>
judofyr: did you try in 1.8?
<apeiros>
since that code was/is targeted at ruby 1.8
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<judofyr>
I'm too cool for 1.8
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<yorickpeterse>
zzak: man you better be having good Japanese food right now
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<injekt>
erikh: I don't maintain it anymore but I did when I was using it at work, we moved away though
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<injekt>
zzak: ping
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<apeiros>
ok, anybody got any idea why on two servers, with the same OS, the same ruby version (1.9.3-p392), the same code `ruby -e 'p Thread.current.respond_to?(:thread_variable_set)'` one time prints false, and the other time prints true?
<apeiros>
I even checked RbConfig::CONFIG (searched for anything which contains 'thread', case insensitive), and both were the same
<apeiros>
I also did `ruby -e 'p RUBY_DESCRIPTION'` to ensure it was both times the same ruby version and patch-level
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<bougyman>
one had libpthread installed and the other didn't?
<bougyman>
is this compiles ruby, or packaged?
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<apeiros>
rvm ruby
<apeiros>
both had pthread
<bougyman>
so could be system lib problem.
<apeiros>
or rather, have
<bougyman>
ok that was my brilliant thought.
<bougyman>
sorry.
<apeiros>
at least that's what RbConfig::CONFIG claims
<bougyman>
something kernel level?
<zenspider>
is thread_variable_set different from []= ?
<apeiros>
yes
<apeiros>
[]= is fiber local
<apeiros>
thread_variable_set is thread local
<zenspider>
ugh
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<apeiros>
I resorted to []= for now since I don't use fibers. but it's *really* ugly that my staging and production server differ
<apeiros>
even though they use the exact same versions of everything…
<zenspider>
did you look at the code defining thread_variable_set ?
<apeiros>
on the one where it is defined? that's actually an idea…
<zenspider>
sec
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<zenspider>
there is no conditionals around it. it is defined or nothing is
<apeiros>
says it's native code
<zenspider>
right. I'm trying to see if it is at the compiler level
<zenspider>
it isn't
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<apeiros>
checking now if it has something to do with railsexpress patch
<zenspider>
I'd be more interested in ensuring that Thread.current is the same on both sides
<zenspider>
maybe test Thread.main ?
<apeiros>
same
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<apeiros>
also requring 'thread' doesn't change anything either
<apeiros>
*requiring
<apeiros>
how can I see in what version that method was added?
<zenspider>
doc/NEWS-2.0.0
<zenspider>
199: * added Thread#thread_variable_get for getting thread local variables
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<Aloysius1>
I have a gem question. I've made a gem that uses Bunny (another gem). I've packaged and gitted up my gem and now wish to use it. When I add the gem to my Gemfile in my new project, I get "uninitialized constant Mygem::Bunny". I would normally resolve this kind of error by putting the Bunny gem in my Gemfile for this new project, but I thought part of the point of having a Gem was that it carried its dependancies along with it. What am I missing?
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<erikh>
do you have a 'require "bunny"' in your code somewhere?
<erikh>
if not, you need to add it.
<erikh>
Aloysius1: ^
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<Aloysius1>
Well, in the gem, yes. I thought having it in the gem, I didn't need it in something using the gem.
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<Aloysius1>
It's in mygem.gemspec: require 'bunny'
<Aloysius1>
But not in mynewappusingmygem's Gemfile.
<erikh>
yeah, it needs to be in the actual files you require
<erikh>
gemspecs and bundler aren't considered at that time
<erikh>
(well, you shouldn't bank on it)
<erikh>
e.g., you have your foo.rb in your gem, and you require 'foo'
<erikh>
foo.rb needs 'require "bunny"' in it.
<Aloysius1>
so, I have mygem.rb, with a "require mygem/version" but no "require bunny".
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<erikh>
right, you need to fix that.
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<Aloysius1>
OK, so I added "require 'bunny'", did a bundle update on mynewappusingmygem, and now get "cannot load such file -- bunny".