apeiros changed the topic of #ruby-lang to: Ruby 2.0.0-p195: http://ruby-lang.org (Ruby 1.9.3-p429) || Paste >3 lines of text on http://gist.github.com
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* erikh checks
<erikh> if it exists, it's a __var__
<erikh> oh that was like 4 hours ago
<erikh> oh well
<eam> well I appreciate the tip
<erikh> haha
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<whitequark> erikh: that might be __method__ or __callee__
<whitequark> they're also methods, not variables
<whitequark> however, I don't think that is equivalent to caller[0]
<whitequark> from what I know, ruby 2.0 added an ability to structurally decompose a backtrace, without using a regexp
<erikh> __method__ is the current method name.
<erikh> hm. maybe hte docs are wrong
<whitequark> yeah. there aren't any other __vars__, except __dir__
* erikh uses the power of irb
<erikh> so, caller can take an integer
<erikh> which defines the range of what the trace is
<whitequark> eam: try caller_locations[0]
<erikh> hmm
<whitequark> it looks like a string but it isn't
<whitequark> eg
<whitequark> >> caller_locations[0].base_label
<eval-in> whitequark => undefined method `base_label' for nil:NilClass (NoMethodError) ... (http://eval.in/31198)
<whitequark> sigh
<whitequark> [8] pry(main)> caller_locations[0].base_label
<whitequark> => "eval"
<erikh> Thread::Backtrace::Location here
<erikh> in irb
<whitequark> yep
<erikh> it's funny
<erikh> perl's had this, since, well, god knows when
<erikh> and perl's just getting ruby features
<erikh> both groups are stubborn
<eam> *cough*
<erikh> eam: yeah, I knew
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<eam> which ruby features is perl getting now?
<erikh> anyhow -- crankharder please to be reading ^^
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<erikh> eam: let's see
<erikh> say
<erikh> given/when
<whitequark> erikh: wat
<erikh> pretty much all of Moose
<whitequark> given is not a ruby feature
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* erikh sighs
<erikh> whitequark: do a switch statement in perl 5.6
<erikh> I'll wait.
<whitequark> oh.
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<whitequark> I thought you were talking about idiotic cucumber dsl.
<eam> erikh: so ~~
<erikh> there's a source filter you might want to use
<whitequark> for some reason.
<erikh> whitequark: nah, it's basically switch/case
<whitequark> I see
<erikh> with similar === semantics
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* whitequark writes tests for whitespace in ruby
<whitequark> it's kind of insane
<eam> ~~ is the === equiv
<erikh> eam: aye
<eam> all my perl is pre 5.10 so I've never had the pleasure
<erikh> mine too
<erikh> well, I've done a bit
<whitequark> for example, \\\n eats the newline as if it wasn't there at all, except when it doesn't and is equivalent to a space
<erikh> but nothing substantial. mail stuff mostly.
<erikh> mail is still horribad in ruby.
<eam> yeah it is
<erikh> can't say I really blame anyone for it -- driven more than a few programmers to self-defenestrate
<eam> I don't wanna write it
<erikh> yeah, me neither.
<eam> I'd rather use perl
<erikh> heh.
<eam> (of course ...)
<eam> I like how ruby has all the super gross parts of perl though
<eam> like ...
<whitequark> eam: why is ... super gross?
<whitequark> it's rather handy
<whitequark> I would call super-gross all the $variables
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<whitequark> with insane inter-frame access
<whitequark> and functions which snoop the local state of the caller.
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<eam> wait, checking to see if the perl version has the gross part
<eam> er the ruby version
<erikh> whitequark: ... vs .. I'm guessing
<eam> erikh: the flip-flop
<whitequark> eam: ahhh
<whitequark> OH YES
<erikh> oh
<eam> see it's so gross you've blocked it out
<erikh> I'm more fond of teh goatse operator
<whitequark> also the regex thingy
<whitequark> if /foo/
<eam> I think in ruby it's just Range, which is awfully boring
<erikh> $count =()= /(one)(two)/
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<erikh> err, $fist
<erikh> first
<eam> yeah that one is sweet
<whitequark> $fist
<erikh> wow, that was an unfortunately appropriately typo
<whitequark> typo relevant
<erikh> also my adverbs can stop all meaning
<erikh> man I'm realizing how much perl has wasted away over the years in my head
<erikh> kind of sad
<erikh> I don't even remember pascal anymore
<erikh> that was.. high school, in a nutshell
<eam> foo^.bar
<eam> did I get that right? I don't even know
<erikh> what is ^?
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<whitequark> you can do foo.^bar in ruby, I think
<eam> ->
<whitequark> >> 1.^2
<eval-in> whitequark => 3 (http://eval.in/31199)
<erikh> oh
<erikh> whitequark: that's xor
<whitequark> erikh: sure
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<whitequark> wtf is ^.?
<eam> ^ is a pointer deref
<erikh> guessing pointer ... yeah
<whitequark> oh, that's pascal, not perl
<whitequark> right
<erikh> I have an old BBS editor I wrote somewhere around here
<erikh> it's not pretty
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<erikh> but hey baby when you have a pirated copy of Turbo Pascal anything is possible
<eam> if the floppies are still readable I have a chess AI in turbo pascal
<erikh> whoa! nice.
<eam> ... that doesn't know how to checkmate
<erikh> haha
<eam> it can prioritize taking pieces though
<eam> (high school)
* whitequark tries to recall what he did in high school
<erikh> that was like two years ago
<erikh> smoke less weed
<erikh> :P
<whitequark> erikh: no it was three
<whitequark> also it's even on githib: https://github.com/whitequark/sparkle
<whitequark> *github
<erikh> *headdesk*
<eam> ffs
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<whitequark> :p
<erikh> whitequark: it's moments like this when I feel both old and dumb. thanks.
<whitequark> erikh: why dumb?
<eam> erikh: I'm just glad someone else was in high school when turbo pascal was still the language for AP
<erikh> I wasn't that smart at that age, that's for sure
<erikh> eam: I've actually got a GED -- I'll let you sort out how high school went for me
<eam> erikh: we're not so far apart actually -- I spent most of my HS years at a boarding schoo
<erikh> oof. that does not sound fun.
<eam> it was, shall we say, not a college prep environment
<whitequark> wait, it actually was just three years ago. felt like an eternity.
<erikh> ah yes. olive drab, aye?
<eam> quite close
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<erikh> honestly kind of wish I had gotten stuck into one of those back then.
<whitequark> eam: (turbo pascal was still the language) we used turbo c in high school, too.
<erikh> probably would have done wonders for me when I got to college.
<whitequark> presumably because it laid around
<erikh> whitequark: as long as you stay away from BGI you're probably doing just fine
<whitequark> and because there were courses which incorporated its graphics library... BGI I think
<erikh> oh man
<erikh> that was timed so well
<whitequark> :D
<whitequark> BGI isn't that complex
<erikh> no, I just remember having a lot of "fun" with it
<erikh> and overlay files
<eam> BGI was very slow
<whitequark> just awkward initialization...
<erikh> eam: you're an ops guy IIRC -- have you played with smartos yet?
<eam> my HS offered an assembly lang class which culminated in calling asm from TP, so next semester iirc I did my own gfx interface
<eam> erikh: nope
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<rickhull> erikh: is that the joyent thingie?
<erikh> worth it if you get bored. hypervisor based off the illumos stuff. JPC runs on it.
<erikh> rickhull: yeah
<whitequark> I wonder, now that QtMultimedia is more stable... maybe I should revive that VoIP project
<whitequark> it was fun for sure
<eam> cool
<rickhull> solaris… ewww
<erikh> rickhull: you'll have to come over sometime -- I'll give you a demo
<erikh> oh no man, this is good shit.
<rickhull> why go with solaris other than inertia (from long ago)?
<whitequark> rickhull: wasn't you advocating AIX the other day?
<rickhull> not me, i'm innocent
<erikh> well, I used to think like that, but it was based off my prior usage of solaris 8
<erikh> so, zfs, zones, and the kvm support that makes smartos smartos makes it f'n killer for virt
<erikh> like, really killer.
<rickhull> i can believe it
<erikh> the OS boots from USB, so to upgrade smartos itself, you just ... overwrite the key
<erikh> OS lives in ram during runtime so you can just yank that baby out
<erikh> quite literally reboot time to upgrade
<erikh> presuming you need to at all, which is rare.
<eam> I'm pretty sure I want a bootable OS in my boxes
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<rickhull> well cloud nodes have different needs
<eam> mmmm
<erikh> this isn't explicitly a cloud thing
<erikh> and customizing the key is harder than a normal OS
<eam> I'm sure you can stick it on the local storage though, no bi
<eam> g
<eam> I ran a huge pxe-only environment once
<erikh> there's local storage for the "global zone", or root machine
<eam> saw a nasty outage
<erikh> but it's partitioned in a way that lets the key operate
<erikh> well, generally you leave the key in the machine
<erikh> I was just talking about upgrading.
<eam> yeah
<erikh> this isn't pxe.
<eam> why not just use the disk though
<eam> nothin' wrong with disk!
<erikh> sekuritee
<eam> bah
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<drbrain> if you have a FireWire port you have no security
<erikh> also if anything does go to pot you can just reboot the box to get to a pristine state
<erikh> drbrain: nah, remote security
<erikh> rebooting "fixes" the box.
<drbrain> yes, I was going to say
<eam> erikh: I'd hate for a power outage to "fix" my entire site
<erikh> eam: you don't generally customize the global zone post-hoc
<erikh> you do it on the key, or not at all.
<eam> I'd just do the same on a small partition on the disk
<eam> I don't get the key -- I never want to touch things
<erikh> you can flash it from the global zone.
<eam> I wanna energize a rack and PXE boot it all at once
<erikh> yeah, I think there's a way to do that
<erikh> dunno. give it a spin, I know I'm just scratching the surface of it all.
<eam> yeah will take a look
<erikh> it is absurdly efficient regardless of how it boots.
<erikh> got ~10 machines running on an i5 quad here
<rickhull> what's the oracle tax?
<erikh> not database servers, but still
<erikh> rickhull: it's free. this is based on opensolaris before oracle closed it again
<erikh> smartos.org
<whitequark> erikh: won't your amount of VMs be limited mainly by available RAM?
<erikh> project-fifo.net is a gui for controlling it
<erikh> whitequark: yes, but there's still CPU contention
<erikh> and i/o of course, probably the real beast
<whitequark> erikh: "running" <> "running well" :) (sorry for nitpicking)
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<erikh> feh
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<rickhull> so, how beholden is smartos to oracle?
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<erikh> not at all
<erikh> most of the illumos stuff is sun ex-pats
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<erikh> same with joyent and omniti and a few other places that work on it
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<erikh> smartos did the hypervisor thing, and ported kvm to solaris
<rickhull> ok, illumos is what i was "missing"
<rickhull> cool
<erikh> type 'illumos-gate' into github
<erikh> it'll find the right places.
<rickhull> is Nexenta still a player? they were doing that Ubuntu-over-solaris thing right?
<erikh> heh
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<erikh> yeah -- nexenta has a lot of fingers in both omnios and smartos.
<erikh> ... 4 or 5 of those machines I mentioned are ubuntu images
<erikh> not sure if you meant that, or solaris with an ubuntu userland
<rickhull> i looked into them pretty heavily about 4 years ago, looking for cheap shared storage along the lines of freenas/iscsi
<erikh> joyent machines use pkgsrc (netbsd)
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<rickhull> yeah nextenta was solaris with ubuntu userland
<erikh> omniti is a little closer to solaris and uses IPS
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<rickhull> for a while at least
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<rickhull> yeah i have a lifetime textdrive/joyent account
<rickhull> which is why i've heard of smartos at all :p
<erikh> neat
<rickhull> you heard about the brouhaha
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<erikh> ?
<rickhull> where they tried to get out from under that?
<erikh> no, I didn't
<rickhull> so like 10 years ago i paid $500 to textdrive for lifetime hosting
<erikh> ohhhhh
<rickhull> kind of like a kickstarter thing. they needed funding and crowdsourced it
<rickhull> like a protokickstarter
<rickhull> then joyent bought textdrive, migrated over
<erikh> tried to cancel everything?
<rickhull> then joyent tried to get out from under the lifetime accounts, despite extremely clear language to the contrary
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<erikh> oh, joy.
<rickhull> so the original textdrive guy came out from the shadows and i guess gets some trickle funding from joyent to run textdrive again
<erikh> ah ok
<rickhull> but i got fairly exposed to the joyent stack throughout the years
<rickhull> the hosting was cheap shared, not smartos stuff
<rickhull> but i read about it
<erikh> it's pretty neat stuff
<erikh> any ivy bridge machine should work pretty well with it.
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<erikh> wife is home, bbl
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<dingus_khan> wait, lemme get this straight: inject without a block is the same a reduce, right?
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<rickhull> inject is an alias for reduce
<rickhull> or vice versa. synonymous
<erikh> they actually refer to the same method internally.
<erikh> (as do many aliases!)
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<whitequark> erikh: all aliases?
<whitequark> in the keyword alias sense, at least
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<erikh> I've always understood it to be that way
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<whitequark> yeah. s,many,all,
<erikh> alias_method_chain
<erikh> thank rails for that gem
<whitequark> hm?
<erikh> oh, I'm just being a twit
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<whitequark> I don't get it. alias_method_chain is a useful pattern which expands into two regular aliases
<whitequark> what's about it?
<whitequark> Module#prepend is probably better, though.
<erikh> doesn't it create an intermediate method to establish the alias?
<erikh> I'm just gonna go over here now
<whitequark> erikh: a_m_c, yes
<erikh> so it's not really an alias at all
<erikh> it's just a method maker
<whitequark> yeah
<whitequark> rails just called it so
<erikh> but I was thinking of C things
<erikh> mri thingies, trying to think of an example
<whitequark> erikh: well, all aliases in ruby sense, that is, created with keyword alias, are referring to the exact same method body
<erikh> right
<whitequark> as the inject/reduce "C thing"
<erikh> we're on the same page
<erikh> haha, fair enough
<whitequark> (which, thankfully, is representable in ruby)
<rickhull> are there differences between inject and reduce at the ruby level?
<whitequark> rickhull: there are no differences between inject and reuce.
<whitequark> except the name.
<rickhull> ok, whew
<whitequark> neither on C level.
<erikh> I guess you're right, it's just not explicitly adding an alias
<erikh> it's just using the same FP
<whitequark> erikh: sure, that's how it is commonly done in mri
<erikh> right right
<whitequark> however the point is that it is semantically equivalent to making a ruby-level alias
<erikh> we're not in disagreement here
<erikh> just a terminology issue
<rickhull> hug it out
<erikh> hahaa
<erikh> this is a nightly thing man, I don't think either of us are offended by it
<rickhull> :p
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<whitequark> it's less boring than manually writing out, errr, 30 tests for ruby's weird whitespace rules
<whitequark> or is it 35
<erikh> haha
<rickhull> the Lord's work
<erikh> sorry, I do not envy that at all
<erikh> but I'd totally trade you for a test suite I have
<erikh> that runs numerous virtualbox vms
<erikh> I got a 300% runtime increase when I got it down to 7 minutes
<erikh> err, decrease
<whitequark> I bet you won't
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<erikh> I don't know ragel, but I'll peek
<whitequark> you'll still appreciate the insanity
<erikh> wait is this generated?
<rickhull> rage!
<whitequark> erikh: ... the hell
<whitequark> no, I wrote that file manually
<whitequark> why are you all asking that
<erikh> probably because it looks generated
<whitequark> how so?
<whitequark> also if you want it that much
<erikh> hah
<whitequark> I'll show you the generated one which results from it
<rickhull> why is it not monospaced?
<whitequark> rickhull: github bug
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<erikh> rickhull: good question
<rickhull> my delicate sensibilities are offended
<erikh> ah, there we go
<erikh> THAT looks like bison output.
<whitequark> erikh: well because they both generate state machines
<erikh> right
<whitequark> I have bison there, too
<whitequark> four damn grammars
<erikh> why?
<whitequark> four ruby versions
<whitequark> 18 19 20 21
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<erikh> wait did mri port to ragel at some point?
<whitequark> no, I wrote that lexer from scratch
<erikh> ....
<whitequark> I think it is the only ruby lexer ever written from scratch
<erikh> well, cool
<rickhull> how do you validate that?
<erikh> heh
<erikh> I think that's what he's up to now
<whitequark> erikh: I've already released this stuff
<erikh> oh
<whitequark> now I'm just correcting really really minor things
<erikh> I'm sorry, been off in devops land for the last like, two year
<erikh> s
<whitequark> did you know that in ruby, you can do nested heredocs?
<whitequark> nested. fucking. heredocs.
<rickhull> :WHY:
<erikh> <<-ONE, <<-TWO right?
<whitequark> erikh: no.
<erikh> I did not, then.
<erikh> oh ha
<erikh> because #{} is just an expression
<rickhull> i think your dev card should get auto-revoked on a nested heredoc
<whitequark> also f5 it
<erikh> that's beautiful
<whitequark> I've added a funny slash
<erikh> haha
<whitequark> it skips over the heredoc
<whitequark> f5 it again
<erikh> right becuase haaa
<whitequark> I've added an insane leading dot
<erikh> ahaaha
<erikh> haha
<rickhull> so, how much of this is clearly unintentional edge case behavior that should not be supported?
<erikh> doesn't matter
<whitequark> also you can use literal \0 as delimiter for %-strings
<erikh> if he wants to be correct, he needs to support it
<whitequark> and any other character
<whitequark> including, for example, backslash
<whitequark> and if you use that, you have no means of escaping stuff.
<erikh> whitequark: if you come to the bay area, I will buy you the beer.
<rickhull> i don't doubt it. but i would use these as negative test cases
<whitequark> erikh: I didn't even begin.
<rickhull> against MRI mainline, 1.8 or whatever
<erikh> whitequark: oh, I'm sure.
<whitequark> did you know that you cannot lex ruby without parsing it?
<whitequark> because
<whitequark> a / # 1 /
<rickhull> doesn't perl have a similar problem?
<whitequark> is a division if a is a local variable, and a method call with a regexp if it's not
<erikh> lots of interpreted langs are like that though
<erikh> yep
<whitequark> rickhull: parsing perl is turing-complete
<whitequark> that's just insane
<whitequark> parsing ruby is truly context-sensitive, that's somewhat better
<erikh> actually, one of the perl edge cases is very similar
<whitequark> erikh: I read about it.
<whitequark> the zero-arity sub.
<whitequark> hmm, what else do we have
<whitequark> %%% is a string literal
<whitequark> %%%%%%% is an empty string too
<erikh> for sprintf?
<whitequark> yep
<erikh> huh, weird.
<whitequark> also there are weird edge case changes in 2.0
<whitequark> all of them kind of make sense, but the very fact that grammar is this ambiguous is scary as hell
<erikh> yeah
<whitequark> the code required to correctly handle the paren-less method calls is totally batshit insane
<erikh> hahah
<whitequark> oh, and don't even get me started on overloading
<whitequark> like, ?
<erikh> ?a
<erikh> like that?
<whitequark> yes
<whitequark> look:
<whitequark> a ?b is a method call
<whitequark> a?b is too
<whitequark> but a?bb is beginning of a ternary operator
<erikh> yeah, that's supposed to go away
<erikh> or was at least
<rickhull> who writes ternaries without spaces?
<erikh> rickhull: LOTS of people
<whitequark> I think it got somewhat better even in the 1.8 days
<rickhull> erikh: ASSHOLES
<whitequark> because there was some completely insane hack in the lexer
<erikh> haha
<whitequark> which isn't present in 1.8.7
<erikh> 2.0 is a lot better imo
<whitequark> it's still bad
<erikh> on numerous levels
<erikh> I've been pretty happy with it.
<erikh> but i don't go rooting around in there.
<whitequark> well. it added several decent APIs, and finally keyword arguments
<whitequark> and 2.1 will add mandatory kwargs
<whitequark> however the syntax of ruby was bad enough at 1.8
<whitequark> it got far worse with 1.9
<whitequark> because of hugely ambiguous labels and symbols
<whitequark> oh, right
<whitequark> there's this thing
<rickhull> mandatory kwargs means no more *args array?
<whitequark> rickhull: er, no
<whitequark> mandatory kwargs means keyword arguments which give an ArgumentError if not passed
<rickhull> ah cool
<erikh> I've been happy with the docs and threading changes
<whitequark> erikh: a=>b is parsed as a => b
<whitequark> but :a=>b isn't
<whitequark> :a= > b
<erikh> ha
<whitequark> and now there's :a==b
<whitequark> which is :a == b
<whitequark> and :a==>b, which is :a= => b
<whitequark> and :a!=b, which is :a != b
<whitequark> ... I think
<whitequark> >> :a!=b
<eval-in> whitequark => undefined local variable or method `b' for main:Object (NameError) ... (http://eval.in/31217)
<whitequark> right
<whitequark> and a!=b is also parsed as a != b
<whitequark> however a! ==b isn't
<whitequark> and a!==b is just invalid
<erikh> oh, unary ! overload
<erikh> that's probably from 1.9 up right?
<whitequark> erikh: it's not unary !
<whitequark> it's !=
<whitequark> but yeah, both are from 1.9
<whitequark> they were brought in so rspec could override it. I think it makes sense either way
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<whitequark> oh also there are lots of interesting ambiguites discussed in Minero Aoki's article: http://whitequark.org/blog/2013/04/01/ruby-hacking-guide-ch-11-finite-state-lexer/
<whitequark> he's incidentally the author of racc
<rickhull> if we could go back in time and redo it, is there any good argument against having keyword-only args?
<erikh> yeah he's done a lot
<erikh> my first real patch was to setup.rb
<whitequark> most funny thing: in about 2001 while writing a book about MRI he has discovered that one peculiarity of lexer is actually dead code
<whitequark> fast forward to 2013
<whitequark> it's STILL THERE
<rickhull> just in case
<whitequark> a state that does nothing but confuses programmers
<erikh> hah
<erikh> I can't say I appreciate kwargs much.
<erikh> I'd just rather pass in a hash
<rickhull> that's kind of hacky
<whitequark> erikh: it's passing a hash
<rickhull> but it works
<erikh> disagree
<erikh> whitequark: I know
<rickhull> but what if all args needed keywords. why not?
<erikh> I don't actually ever spell out keyword arguments
<erikh> I pass them in as I construct them
<rickhull> rand(num: 5)
<whitequark> positional boolean arguments suck
<erikh> err, rather, after I do
<rickhull> kind of lame
<erikh> whitequark: not disagreeing
<erikh> just... don't like all the extra blah
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<rickhull> i like that you can see at the call site what is being indicated
<erikh> sure, but I like typing less
<rickhull> weak
<rickhull> you spend more time reading than writing
<erikh> haha
<erikh> I read quickly
<rickhull> not without context
<whitequark> if i was doing ruby syntax from scratch... I'd completely kill paren-less calls without an explicit receiver. maybe all paren-less calls with arguments. and non-percent literals.
<rickhull> keywords = more context
<whitequark> *regexp literals
<rickhull> whitequark: but you are optimizing for internals, not the programmer experience
<whitequark> rickhull: disagree
<rickhull> i don't disagree btw
<whitequark> the syntax *is* confusing
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<erikh> p a b c
<rickhull> there is that GoF pattern thingie
<erikh> WHAT HAPPENS
<rickhull> about method calls looking like attributes
<whitequark> that too
<whitequark> rickhull: eh
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<whitequark> I'd just make you write out self.a/self.a=
<erikh> this is one of those wins lisp's pesky parens actually provides
<whitequark> the problem is that the whole variable/attribute thing is *actually* problematic
<erikh> (p (a (b c))) is a lot more obvious
<whitequark> plus, the whole command stuff starts to explode very fast
<rickhull> using space for a function applicator may be the real wtf
<whitequark> foo bar do end
<whitequark> what happens?
<erikh> aye
<whitequark> it's hardcoded as "foo gets the block"
<erikh> right
<whitequark> with a pretty evil hack
<erikh> really?
<erikh> fun.
<whitequark> yeah
<rickhull> GREAT BAND
<erikh> rickhull: how many have you had?
<whitequark> it abuses LALR(1) lookahead
<erikh> :P
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<rickhull> a few :p
<whitequark> erikh: also this: while foo do end
<whitequark> what happens? :D
<whitequark> I think it's hardcoded to bind to while, also.
* erikh thinks
<whitequark> in a similar way.
<erikh> really.
<whitequark> it's not over!
<erikh> I mean, you'd think the same rule would work for both, just applied at a higher level
<whitequark> while foo -> do end end
<whitequark> what happens? :D
<erikh> oh
<erikh> fuck ->
<erikh> fuck it right in the ear
<erikh> with a ->
<whitequark> it's the THIRD overload for do
<whitequark> and surprisingly
<whitequark> in this case do binds to the innermost.
<whitequark> what the fuck ruby
<whitequark> ever heard of consistency
<erikh> haha
<erikh> you need a beer.
<whitequark> I need a lobotomy
<erikh> perhaps you need to get into Go
<rickhull> i'd rather have a bottle in front of me
<rickhull> than a frontal lobotomy
<erikh> haha
<erikh> nice timing.
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<rickhull> hi 5, nice setup
<erikh> ^5
<whitequark> oh also
<whitequark> foo<<BAR
<whitequark> what is this, a left shift or a heredoc?
<whitequark> for bonus points
<erikh> let me guess, depends on BAR
<whitequark> foo.class<<BAR
<whitequark> erikh: no. depends on foo.
<erikh> really?!
<whitequark> same lvar trick
<erikh> a;lksj
<erikh> stop
<erikh> stahp
<erikh> STOP.
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<whitequark> no, i didn't completely ruin ruby for you, yet
<erikh> no you haven't
<erikh> but I start my new job tomorrow
<erikh> and I want this evening to be relaxing
<rickhull> RELAX, whitequark gotcha back
<whitequark> oh also
<whitequark> foo:bar
<whitequark> what is this?
<whitequark> a) depends on foo
<whitequark> b) depends on preceding context
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<rickhull> B
<whitequark> eg if it was baz \
<whitequark> then it's a foo: bar
<whitequark> otherwise it is foo :bar
<whitequark> there's also this
<whitequark> a = foo if b is (a = foo) if b
<whitequark> but a = foo rescue b is a = (foo rescue b)
<rickhull> can't we just make people disambiguate with spaces like any normal human?
<whitequark> and 1.8 for some twisted reason allows an octal literal with no digits
<whitequark> 0o
<whitequark> so, instead of saying "unexpected d" as for "0d"
<whitequark> 1.9 and laters say "octal literal without digits"
<whitequark> >> 0o
<eval-in> whitequark => /tmp/execpad-557e41b748d5/source-557e41b748d5:2: numeric literal without digits ... (http://eval.in/31221)
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* whitequark scratches his head
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<whitequark> also one of the changes in 2.0 were to fix class << foo:bar, which used to be a parse error
<whitequark> and make it class << foo(:bar)
<whitequark> there's also =begin
<whitequark> it's... interesting
<whitequark> you can span a method call over =begin/=end if the dot is trailing... foo.\n=begin\n=end\nbar
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<rickhull> frankly i would just trigger the system bell every time you encounter these situations
<whitequark> but not if foo\n=begin\n=end\n.bar
<rickhull> problem solved
<whitequark> however foo #bar\n.baz is totally fine
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<whitequark> also there's __END__, which looks like keyword, but surprise, it isn't
<whitequark> __END__ = 1 is just fine
<whitequark> and p __END__
<whitequark> but if it occurs without any preceding or following whitespace, then it's special
<lianj> whitequark: in 2.0?
<whitequark> lianj: in anything
<rickhull> >> p (__END__ = 1)
<eval-in> rickhull => 1 ... (http://eval.in/31222)
<whitequark> oh, ruby also allows literal newline to follow ? at expr_beg context
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<whitequark> it then prints a warning and interprets it as a ternary
<whitequark> more specifically
<whitequark> literal \n, \r, \t, \v, \f and space.
<rickhull> needs more system bell
<whitequark> also in 2.1, they removed the $- variable
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<whitequark> well, you know there's $-v
<whitequark> so that is $-(nothing)
<whitequark> oh also @0foo is a parse error, but :@0foo is a completely different parse error
<rickhull> >> $-1
<eval-in> rickhull => nil (http://eval.in/31223)
<rickhull> $-12
<rickhull> >> $-12
<eval-in> rickhull => /tmp/execpad-08edd2b828fb/source-08edd2b828fb:2: syntax error, unexpected tINTEGER, expecting keyword_end (http://eval.in/31224)
<whitequark> rickhull: look
<whitequark> >> $-й
<eval-in> whitequark => /tmp/execpad-7320f699da65/source-7320f699da65: invalid encoding symbol (EncodingError) (http://eval.in/31225)
<whitequark> it just teared apart my lovely й
<whitequark> and interpreted it as two ASCII-8BIT octets
<whitequark> don't ask why I know that.
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<whitequark> there's also interesting things about ruby's unicode usage
<whitequark> such as non-ASCII space being a valid identifier character
<whitequark> (anything non-ASCII in unicode is interpreted as a lowercase ASCII letter.)
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<rickhull> non ascii, e.g. 0x00
<rickhull> ?
<whitequark> no, 0x00 is part of ASCII
<whitequark> in practice, anything above 127
<rickhull> ok right
<rickhull> what's an >> example, just curious
<rickhull> i am bad with string encodings. i live in a binary / ASCII (printable) world
<whitequark> й is a russian letter
<whitequark> >> ?й.ord
<eval-in> whitequark => 1081 (http://eval.in/31226)
<whitequark> also in much the same vein...
<whitequark> >> %йй
<eval-in> whitequark => /tmp/execpad-0330250a2b08/source-0330250a2b08:2: invalid multibyte char (UTF-8) ... (http://eval.in/31227)
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<whitequark> broken multibyte handling again
<whitequark> bad Encoding support in parse.y leaks through :/
<whitequark> also did you know
<whitequark> >> eval("puts\x1a'shit'")
<eval-in> whitequark => ... (http://eval.in/31228)
<whitequark> literal ^D and ^Z in source are interpreted like EOF
<whitequark> ... sigh
<whitequark> I'm out of weirdness
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<whitequark> erikh: well. github.com/whitequark/parser
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<whitequark> mind you, I'm collecting precise location info in AST for all of the above cases
<whitequark> nested heredocs, etc
<whitequark> gem install parser; ruby-parse -L -e 'foo + bar'
<whitequark> for a demo
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<whitequark> oh god
<whitequark> PCL, the printer protocol, is actually an ASCII extension
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<ironcamel> /lc/lc
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<erikh> whitequark: neat
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<erikh> I just learned my zpool was out of space
<erikh> after copying for 10 hours
<erikh> not very happy right now
<erikh> probably need to set this down until the weekend
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<injekt> zzak: hit me up when you're online, here or skype
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<yorickpeterse> HAI INTERNET FRIENDS
<yorickpeterse> I DID NOT SLEEP VERY WELL LAST NIGHT
<bnagy> I prescribe gin
<yorickpeterse> I don't have any
<yorickpeterse> I only have tea
<bnagy> well there's your problem
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<erikh> ha
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<gnufied> drink hot water.
<yorickpeterse> Tea is hot water
<gnufied> and get someone to slap you, when you are leaning on the desk
<yorickpeterse> wat
<yorickpeterse> is this some weird fetish?
<gnufied> if it helps keeping awake why not? there was a thread on HN sometime back about someone got a girl to slap him, when he was procrastinating during work.
<gnufied> :-)
<gnufied> I mean the person he happened to hire was a girl. nothing particular about it.
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<ajack> Hi guys, in Ruby 1.8.7 doing SomeModule::SomeClass.subclasses returns me an array of subclasses, whereas in 1.9.3 doing the same just gives me a string of the first defined subclass - how can I get an array of all subclasses of a class in 1.9.3?
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<judofyr> ajack: I think it's ActiveSupport that adds that functionality
<judofyr> ajack: I'd recommend implementing inherited: class MyBase; def self.inherited(klass); store_somewhere(klass) end end
<ajack> Ahh, sorry I thought it was a ruby thing!
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<ajack> Nice idea, thanks :)
<judofyr> ajack: if you need to get subclasses for any class, you can use ObjectSpace
<judofyr> >> ObjectSpace.each_object(Class).select { |x| x < Integer }
<eval-in> judofyr => [Bignum, Fixnum] (http://eval.in/31260)
<judofyr> but that's not really recommended
<judofyr> it's slow
<ajack> Yeah, I'll do it via inherited, bit nicer
<whitequark> >> ObjectSpace.methods
<eval-in> whitequark => [:each_object, :garbage_collect, :define_finalizer, :undefine_finalizer, :_id2ref, :count_objects, :freeze, :===, :==, :<=>, :<, :<=, :>, :>=, :to_s, :inspect, :included_modules, :include?, :name, :anc ... (http://eval.in/31261)
<judofyr> >> ObjectSpace.methods - Object.methods
<eval-in> judofyr => [:each_object, :garbage_collect, :define_finalizer, :undefine_finalizer, :_id2ref, :count_objects] (http://eval.in/31262)
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<yorickpeterse> >> ObjectSpace.methods(false)
<eval-in> yorickpeterse => [:each_object, :garbage_collect, :define_finalizer, :undefine_finalizer, :_id2ref, :count_objects] (http://eval.in/31263)
<yorickpeterse> passing `false` means it doesn't include inherited/included methods
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<injekt> yay for not being able to install rbx or jruby through ruby-build
<yorickpeterse> eh?
<injekt> errors man, I dont even like ruby-build.. doing it myself always works better
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<gnufied> rvm and rbx have been arch enemies
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<injekt> what does rvm have to do with this?
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<gnufied> after compiling rbx and presuming using rbenv, how do you invoke it? you still use rbx command? rvm traditionally just works after rvm install rbx, but the problem is there were too many bugs in Rubinius tracker related to rvm
<injekt> dude why are you talking about rvm?
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<gnufied> because I felt like pointing out? if you chose to use that path, that is not safe either?
<injekt> use what path? I dont use rvm
<injekt> I'm so confused
<gnufied> cool.
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<judofyr> gnufied: you select rbx as you would select any Ruby in rbenv?
<judofyr> rbenv shell
<judofyr> or .ruby-version
<judofyr> or whatever it is
<yorickpeterse> injekt: works fine here
<judofyr> oh, backlog
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<injekt> derp
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<injekt> yorickpeterse: I get an error about the lib/ directory not existing \o/
<yorickpeterse> get a better potatoe
<yorickpeterse> one that runs a real OS
* yorickpeterse runs
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<injekt> har
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<andrewvos> how in the hell did you just spell potato son?
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<andrewvos> You savage
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<yorickpeterse> deal with it
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<ericwood> ugh
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<aob> What's a good way to append a filename to a directory in a way which works cross platform?
<aob> I've generated the dir with Dir::mktmpdir so I know that's cross platform
<aob> but I want to put a file inside teh dir
<aob> so #{dir}/#{file} isn't going to cut it
<wnd> are you after File.join(foo, 'bar')?
<canton7> aob, File.join
<aob> oh does that "just work" ?
<aob> i'd assumed that wasn't cross platform for some reason
<aob> sorry - thanks!
<canton7> tbh windows accepts /, so / is cross-platform :P
<canton7> (see File::SEPARATOR on windows - for me it's /, and File.join('a', 'b') # => 'a/b'
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<canton7> and with thingslike File.dirname and File.basename, ruby tries to use both / and \ on windows (File::SEPARATOR and File::ALT_SEPARATOR)
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<zzak> injekt: :o
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<crankharder> there's no constant that has the days in a month? [31, 28, 31, 30, etc...]
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<eam> canton7: OSX uses either / or : depending on what you're doing
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<lsegal> crankharder well no, because it's not a constant value. For instance, February doesn't always have 28 days due to the leap year.
<lsegal> days are hard.
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<crankharder> stupid reality
<whitequark> tl;dr: use tzdata. use tzdata. use tzdata. update your tzdata. use tzdata.
<ddfreyne> Hmm, a style question:
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<imperator> Gangam
<ddfreyne> https://gist.github.com/ddfreyne/5630100 <- I want it to be possible to instantiate a Foo with a string instead of the expected TextualContent. For that to work, I need a class check... but that feels ugly to me.
<ddfreyne> Any better ways to do this? I was thinking of #coerce, but that only works between instances.
<imperator> does nanoc have any methods for automatically converting strings?
<ddfreyne> Monkey-patching a #to_textual_content method on TextualContent (returning self) and String is possible, but it is a bit icky
<ddfreyne> imperator: Automatically? What do you mean byt hat?
<whitequark> ddfreyne: that's a weird method
<whitequark> it does X if a String is passed, and Y if something else
<whitequark> for example, fixnum.
<whitequark> if you want a class check, do it on Nanoc::TextualContent, and otherwise create it from content.to_s
<imperator> ddfreyne, i mean a String#xxx method
<whitequark> (I consider it fine to do class checks on classes you own)
<ddfreyne> whitequark: Well, the content variable can either be a String o ra TextualContent... I suppose I should check whether it's neither of those
<imperator> nm
<ddfreyne> whitequark: Ahh, checking TextualContent would be a good idea
<whitequark> and using to_s otherwise, yeah
<whitequark> so you have all cases covered
<ddfreyne> Yep, thanks
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<yorickpeterse> exciting task of the day: zero-wiping a disk
<yorickpeterse> always fun hoping you didn't accidently wipe your main disk
<whitequark> $ shred /dev/root
<yorickpeterse> real lunix hackers use dd
<whitequark> you know difference between dd and shred, right?
<whitequark> though
<yorickpeterse> also of course I fuck up LUKS the first time I try it again
<whitequark> it doesn't matter for block devices
<whitequark> and you cannot reliably destroy, AND reliably recover data from SSDs :p
<yorickpeterse> set up one pen drive ages ago for SSH details and such, of course this time I forget to first create a partition and then LUKS it
<eam> shred is pointless
<whitequark> eam: it isn't
<eam> sure it is
<whitequark> more useful than rm foo, that is
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<eam> whitequark: I'll refer you to NIST 800-88
<ddfreyne> Actual implementation: https://gist.github.com/ddfreyne/5630100
<ddfreyne> whitequark: -^
<whitequark> eam: hm.
<eam> modern disks have enough going on that software level erasing cannot be guaranteed -- and certainly writing the same area twice isn't very meaningful
<ddfreyne> Not entirely happy with the implementation yet either. Maybe I should add more nil checks.
<eam> outside of the ATA SECURE ERASE instruction, but good luck getting that to work on hardware made in this decade
<whitequark> eam: yes you're right
<whitequark> though the NIST 800-88 says a different thing
<whitequark> " That is, for ATA disk drives manufactured after 2001 (over 15 GB) clearing by overwriting the media once is adequate to protect the media from both keyboard and laboratory attack."
<whitequark> which also makes sense
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<whitequark> eam: I believe that modern HDDs don't reallocate sectors unless they really have to, because that could make seek time even worse than it is
<whitequark> SSDs on the other hand do whatever they please
<eam> whitequark: yeah I was more talking about shred's multiple writes. Just one will do
<whitequark> ddfreyne: fine
<eam> whitequark: yeah that's true, but there's still an enormous portion set aside for it
<eam> and it's gonna have some of your data
<whitequark> eam: how so?
<whitequark> that is, I'm not trying to contradict you, they're complex beasts
<whitequark> but I don't quite see how this will happen
<eam> whitequark: well, let's say 25% of the storage capacity is reserved for remapping bad blocks
<whitequark> right
<eam> and that it's designed to last for 4 years
<whitequark> I always thought that with modern hard drives, when it begins to reallocate it's basically dead
<eam> 1T drive -> 250G reserved -> you can estimate that around 62G will get remapped (as in, an inaccessible copy probably remains)
<whitequark> and SMART (if it doesn't lie) thinks so, too
<eam> each year
<eam> whitequark: pretty sure they do an enormous amount of remapping
<whitequark> because all my drives have had reallocated sector count as zero until they died
<whitequark> eam: source?
<ddfreyne> And while I am at it, another style question: Nanoc::Identifier.from_string(s) oder Nanoc::Identifier.new_from_string(s)? (`new` vs no `new`)
<whitequark> from_string(s)
<whitequark> or just #new?
<eam> whitequark: well, for a given device just look at the reserved size, and how long the device is designed to last for
<whitequark> let's check for the hard drive in my notebook. 500G one
<eam> and that'll give an idea, very roughly, of how much data is expected to be remapped over time
<ddfreyne> Just #new won't work (it accepts an array of components). .from_string is a convenience method that does the string splitting
<ddfreyne> I suppose ClassName.from_xxx is a good convention
<whitequark> wow, it eats 16W while doing i/o
<whitequark> what a pig
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<whitequark> that's more than everything else combined
<eam> non-solid state :(
<whitequark> oh, sneaky decimal point
<whitequark> 1.6 :D
<whitequark> that's actually quite decent, even compared to S/S
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<whitequark> eam: can't seem to find the data... it's HTS545050A7E380
<eam> I don't have any numbers in front of me
<eam> I dug into it a while back and I remember there was a surprising amount of reserved space
<whitequark> for some reason they don't mention it in the datasheet
<whitequark> ok
<whitequark> well, maybe.
<eam> and with the gigantic capacity of drives, even if it's like 10%, for a 1T drive that's 100G
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<eam> one way to get at it is to figure out the density of the platters
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<whitequark> that will leave a margin of orders of magnitude
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<eam> like if you know they use 250G/surface and have two platters, the raw capacity is 1T, so if it sells as a 750G drive you can guess one surface is for remapping
<whitequark> you won't know how much is for metadata, ECC, ...
<eam> whitequark: totally
<whitequark> and maybe they just make 1TB drives and slice half of it off for marketing purposes
<eam> it's all very rough, I don't know if anyone publishes that data for consumer grade devices
<whitequark> I've seen it for earlier drives, 5+ years ago
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<whitequark> eam: btw, what's the problem with ATA SECURE ERASE?
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<eam> oh it's fine, but there's no equiv for scsi/sas
<whitequark> really? that's strange
<eam> whitequark: I should say, there's an instruction for it -- which many vendors don't implement
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<whitequark> do they provide multi-thousand-dollar tools for secure erasing of data? :D
<eam> that's discussed somewhat in NIST 800-88 iirc
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<eam> whitequark: generally people opt for physical destruction
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<whitequark> well, I guess there's no way around it :p
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<eam> (or, they operate at a security level where clear is adequate)
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<eam> whitequark: basically clear/purge/destroy has become clear / destroy with not much middle ground
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<whitequark> I see
<whitequark> bbl
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<yorickpeterse> bah, why do all the cool filesystems have file permissions
<yorickpeterse> Don't force me to use FAT32 :<
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<yorickpeterse> fuckit, FAT32, don't have files over 4GB anyway
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<NemesisD> was wanting to check my understanding of ruby GC. is it true that if your process grows to a certian size, the vm will not surrender that memory back to the os?
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<akahn> is there anything like Process.wait that waits until *all* subprocesses have exited? it seems like if i fork 5 times, I need to call Process.wait 5 times to know that they've all exited
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<cored> hello guys
<cored> https://gist.github.com/cored/a479a39a37af788a4492 why is it that the context for exceptions handling is not working
<cored> it's seems like the should_receive doesn't work with an stub
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<injekt> nice require D:
<injekt> cored: anyway, what's the actual problem?
<injekt> there's a lot of confusing stuff happening
<cored> the last context
<cored> nice require :-)
<cored> I want to throw an exception so I can test the side effect on the mongo mapper object
<cored> let me show you the production code
<cored> wait
<injekt> are you sure you dont want to raise an exception? throw does not do what it does in java
<cored> oh yes I know, the code is updated in here
<cored> that was just a silly test
<cored> but I get a faiulre on the specs
<cored> seems like the rescue is not catching the exception
<injekt> so what exception is being raised?
<cored> none
<injekt> ...
<injekt> "the rescue is not catching the exception that is not being raised"
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<cored> let me re explain myself
<cored> when I use stub I get a failure
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<cored> saying uncaught exception Timeout::Error
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<cored> but if I use should_receive I don't get anything
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<cored> don't know if the problem is because I can't not use should_Receive with an stub
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<zzak> injekt: hai
<injekt> zzak: hey dude sorry been super busy today
<zzak> same
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<injekt> crazy week, how's things?
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<zzak> tryin to get ready for the trip on sat
<injekt> damn that's come around quick
<zzak> too quick :(
<injekt> you prepped?
<zzak> no
<zzak> lol
<zzak> have to re-record my screencasts
<zzak> and figure out bluetooth for my remote
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<zzak> it was working on wifi, but i cant trust the wifi there to be working
<injekt> why re-record?
<injekt> ah
<zzak> need to bump the fonts up
<injekt> is the schedule still the same?
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<injekt> zzak: I'm gonna head out, lets catch up tomorrow if you have any free time, I have a couple of meetings in the morning but should be good for early afternoon GMT if you're available
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<zzak> same schedule
<zzak> injekt: sounds good, ping me after your meetings
<injekt> zzak: will do, ttyl
<zzak> night!
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<matti> zzak: Can I borrow fluffy one? I need some cuteness.
<zzak> matti: hes sleeping :(
<matti> Oh.
<matti> I see.
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<matti> zzak: How is point release coming?
<matti> zzak: I still have hope for my change ;]
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<zzak> you should ping the ticket if you want some feedback, its been long enough
<zzak> i forget which ticket it was now
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<rickhull> bug in ostruct? https://gist.github.com/rickhull/5631381
<drbrain> rickhull: you're trying ruby 2.0 features on 1.9.3
<drbrain> … your URL says "stdlib-2.0"
<rickhull> right, that's what /stdlib redirects to
<rickhull> tried /stdlib-1.9 no dice
<zzak> 1.9.3
<rickhull> yeah found it now
<rickhull> i thought .to_h was on earlier versions
<rickhull> but i see it's not, ok
<drbrain> maybe on Struct?
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<rickhull> i could have sworn there was a way to do hash like stuff on way older openstruct
<rickhull> in this case, i want to iterate over the keys
<zzak> you could dump to marshal
<zzak> or use a struct and #hash
<zzak> struct has #each_pair too
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<havenwood> rickhull: Easy to monkeypatch OpenStruct and Hash with conversion methods. Better yet, use 2.0. :P
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<rickhull> better off to not use openstruct, i think
<rickhull> but i am constrained :p
<zzak> use struct, for speed
<havenwood> A stab at Hash methods for to_struct and to_ostruct: https://gist.github.com/havenwood/4288693
<havenwood> Why i use autoload? >.>
<havenwood> Guess thinking Struct doesn't need it, but now feel guilty with deprecation notice. :O
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<rickhull> where are the methods? e.g. YAML.load
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<havenwood> oh, right, 1.9.3!
<zzak> use psych
<zzak> working in backporting a patch to fix up those YAML docs
<havenwood> zzak: roger that!
<zzak> next patch level release!
<havenwood> zzak: nice :)
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<rickhull> doesn't YAML.load support/accept a File or IO?
<rickhull> judging from the docs, it looks like only string is accepted
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<zzak> for IO you want parse i think
<rickhull> ok yeah
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<zenspider> corundum: seen headius?
<corundum> no idea
<corundum> headius was last seen 23 hours, 45 minutes and 21 seconds ago, quitting IRC (Quit: headius)
<havenwood> corundum: Say JRuby three times and he appears. Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice, ahem.
<corundum> insufficient "say" auth (have 10, need 70)
<zzak> corundum: say hi
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<drbrain> only I can make corundum say things, and only after I fix my bot authorization
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<zenspider> corundum: play dead!
<zenspider> good boy
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<zenspider> *sigh*
<zenspider> jruby
<zenspider> jruby
<zenspider> jruby
* zenspider waits
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