Topic for #qi-hardware is now Copyleft hardware - http://qi-hardware.com | hardware hackers join here to discuss Ben NanoNote, atben / atusb 802.15.4 wireless, and other community driven hw projects | public logging at http://en.qi-hardware.com/irclogs
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<wolfspra1l>
oh that's nice, thanks larsc
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<wpwrak>
so it takes about one month from the moment they begin work until they emit the final document ? and yes, it's those emissions in the low MHz range that i'd be most concerned about. i should have kept the old radios of my parents. they would cover that range :)
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<wolfspra1l>
the testing itself takes a few hours only, at most
<wolfspra1l>
I tried to put things in perspective, I think for your little thing you already worry too much about "fcc"
<wolfspra1l>
your problem will be to find a lab that cares about a one-time little nothing like testing your board
<wolfspra1l>
where 99% of people who would make such type of device wouldn't bother with anything fcc :-)
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<wolfspra1l>
the idea of the fcc is to avoid something like "if I turn this on, will my cellphone stop working" etc.
<wolfspra1l>
you can just say 'no' with your professional authority/design 'excellency', and done
<wolfspra1l>
at least if more people would think like you, testing labs wouldn't worry about their growth opportunities :-)
<wolfspra1l>
for example when importing into the US itself, home territory of the FCC, you would check this on the import form, even for large quantities
<wolfspra1l>
"An FCC grant of equipment authorization and an FCC ID are not required, but the equipment complies with FCC technical requirements."
<wolfspra1l>
if you 'certify' this "complies with tech req" with your own professional authority, including some realization you had in your dream that there cannot be an issue, nothing will ever happen
<wolfspra1l>
and everybody can focus on making money :-)
<wolfspra1l>
I doubt you find a lab to take care of this little business, that is exactly why the labs in europe just don't even pickup the phone unless you wire 25k usd upfront
<wolfspra1l>
I can understand them :-)
<wolfspra1l>
in China you may be lucky off-season that someone takes your thing, and I think it can easily all be finished in 1 day, testing, paperwork, stamp, done
<wolfspra1l>
there will *not* be an FCC ID in any case
<wolfspra1l>
but if there ever were a liability issue (very very unlikely), you could drag in that poor lab and point fingeres at them, I guess
<wolfspra1l>
so they make you pay a little
<wolfspra1l>
risk = profit. if you outsource all risk, you cannot make a profit, by definition.
<wolfspra1l>
I suggest you just make that statement of compliance yourself, and it can be verified by an FCC approved lab at a later point shall that become necessary
<wpwrak>
well, this sort of thing may come up when someone wants to import/resell
<wolfspra1l>
that's why you make that statement
<wolfspra1l>
you are the designer, you know the board, someone must STEP UP
<wolfspra1l>
you want to point fingers at a lab and make them step up, fine. then you find such lab and pay.
<wolfspra1l>
your device is an unintentional radiator in any case
<wolfspra1l>
even you admit that :-)
<wolfspra1l>
so just say so, just say "yes, it does comply with the fcc technical requirements for unintentional radiators"
<wolfspra1l>
check the box on the import form, and done
<wpwrak>
the difference between me and the lab is that they have the equipment to actually see what's going on :) the paperwork itself is much less of a concern
<wolfspra1l>
of course if you keep saying "but I am not sure", then fine, pay for it
<wolfspra1l>
I can just tell you that business doesn't work with that kind of hesitation level
<wolfspra1l>
that little thing won't radiate
<wolfspra1l>
and even if it does, it can be addressed later
<wolfspra1l>
just someone needs to step up, make a decision, take responsibility, and move forward
<wolfspra1l>
make good design choices, and you are safe
<wolfspra1l>
really
<wpwrak>
(good design choices) tricky without any feedback :)
<wolfspra1l>
that's already much more professional love than 90% of electronic china toys will ever receive
<wolfspra1l>
you worry about the wrong things
<wolfspra1l>
that's why you make no money :-)
<wolfspra1l>
chinese little electronic plastic toys for kids are flooding the world, right?
<wolfspra1l>
including poisonous colors and what not
<wolfspra1l>
and including the crudest possible electronics you can imagine
<wolfspra1l>
radiating?
<wolfspra1l>
ha ha
<wolfspra1l>
WHO KNOWS?
<wolfspra1l>
fcc?
<wolfspra1l>
OH
<wolfspra1l>
MY
<wolfspra1l>
GOD
<wolfspra1l>
you must be living in another world...
<wolfspra1l>
you personally have 100 times the skill level of the entire hw engineering team of any chinese electronic toy maker
<wolfspra1l>
they wouldn't even know what fcc is, actually
<wolfspra1l>
or that they are making 'unintentional radiators'
<wolfspra1l>
anyway, that's my perspective...
<wolfspra1l>
my advice:
<wolfspra1l>
1) step up and make the professional statement that your device meets the requirements for an fcc unindentional radiator, by your own authority and design excellency
<wpwrak>
the chinese have the advantage of anonymity ;-)
<wolfspra1l>
2) be open-minded to having this verified by an fcc approved lab at any time, shall there be doubts about your authority
<wolfspra1l>
no, not really
<wolfspra1l>
it's just a non-issue, you don't realize that you yourself may very well possess even more than the 'typical' professional whatever to make this kind of statement
<wolfspra1l>
you think the lab has some geniuses?
<wpwrak>
no. but they have equipment :)
<wolfspra1l>
and on a production line, you are dealing with component variations
<wolfspra1l>
and even though you know all this, you can't just cut through
<wolfspra1l>
your device will not radiate
<wolfspra1l>
not at the level that the fcc would worry about
<wpwrak>
lemme do some calculations ...
<wolfspra1l>
so it's an 'unintentional radiator'
<wolfspra1l>
like for example millions of cheap electronic plastic toys
<wolfspra1l>
out of which many may actually very well radiate like hell
<wolfspra1l>
because the 'engineers' that fumbled together those crude electronics make the absolute most ridiculous beginner mistakes you could imagine
<wolfspra1l>
like the worst worst worst combination, like in a textbook to demonstrate how *not* to do it
<wolfspra1l>
yet the devices are being made, shipped, sold, taxed, etc. everybody seems happy
<wolfspra1l>
except werner :-)
<wpwrak>
hmm. if i consider the high-current paths as RC filters, i get a cut-off frequency of 80 MHz. pretty high.
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<wpwrak>
but i take the message that FCC compliance checking may be something to do in parallel with other things, i.e., not something you actually busy-wait for
<wolfspra1l>
step up
<wolfspra1l>
your device is an unintentional radiator, at best
<wolfspra1l>
or are you hiding something?
<wolfspra1l>
:-)
<wolfspra1l>
if you follow the commonly understood principles to minimize radiation, you WILL BE FINE
<wolfspra1l>
because then you already do much more than all the chinese electronic toys that are flooding the world
<wolfspra1l>
the only thing that radiates is your uncertainty about your own design :-)
<wpwrak>
hmm. the "commonly understood principles" would be multilayer and extra load caps to drive down the frequency. designing defensively has its price.
<wolfspra1l>
make the extra effort and buy a 2 USD chinese toy outside somewhere, if Argentina can still afford to import them
<wolfspra1l>
take it apart
<wolfspra1l>
take a deep breadth
<wolfspra1l>
and arrive in the real world
<wpwrak>
hmm. i also have a relatively high switching frequency in high-current paths. those toys probably don't.
<wpwrak>
the test reports for the Ben are interesting. very specific design recommendations.
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<DocScrutinizer05>
yay
<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak: voltage, length of *free* wires acting for antenna. all you care about
<DocScrutinizer05>
get a 100nF next to each chip's VDD-GND
<DocScrutinizer05>
done
<DocScrutinizer05>
unless you're dealing with switched mode PSU
<DocScrutinizer05>
which by design are nasty little radiators - I notice that every time my DCF77 clock refuses to sync when N810 or N900 (incl USB wallwart charger) is closer than 150cm
<DocScrutinizer05>
get a multiband radio/receiver (150kHz..50MHz), see if you can find some 'carrier' that vanishes when you power down DUT. place receiver 1m from DUT. all you need for "equipment"
<pang>
DocScrutinizer05: that's useful, thanks =)
<pang>
do you have suggestions for receiver hw and sw?
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<DocScrutinizer05>
err, Sony has nice stuff
<pang>
will a basic RTL-SDR and gnu radio setup work?
<DocScrutinizer05>
way too complicated, introduces too much unknown variables
<DocScrutinizer05>
Sony ICF-SW7600GR, Sony ICF-SW35, Sony Weltempfänger Icf-sw11/s
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<pang>
Sony ICF-SW7600GR looks nice, with the scan mode
<DocScrutinizer05>
sony-icfsw7600gr is actually well suited for the task, continuous band from 150kHz to 30MHz
<DocScrutinizer05>
the smaller ones you'll hope for 1st harmonic of some spike out of band will be in band for your receiver
<DocScrutinizer05>
those "radiators" never are perfect transmitters not having any harmonics and sidebands
<DocScrutinizer05>
but honestly, up to maybe 3.3V supply I'd not worry for anything without a step-up converter
<DocScrutinizer05>
and the general FCC "paper" for consumer devices says: "you may experience interference from this device to any nearby radios, TV, etc. Increase distance between the two devices in that case"
<DocScrutinizer05>
fair enough, huh? ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
German regulations are way stricter here than FCC
<pang>
i'm based in Norway, and we just follow EEC regs
<DocScrutinizer05>
the whole stuff got massively unified worldwide during last ~30 years
<DocScrutinizer05>
otherwise trade was impossible
<DocScrutinizer05>
30 years ago plugging in your own 600R landline phone to the wall outlet was a crime in Germany ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
then came modems
<DocScrutinizer05>
eventually modems >2400baud
<DocScrutinizer05>
and lots and lots of people didn't get it why those mustn't be used in Germany while they work just fine in all the rest of the world
<DocScrutinizer05>
basically back when everybody became a criminal
<DocScrutinizer05>
;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
then they relaxed stuff
<DocScrutinizer05>
FAX machine not rented from german telecom and configured properly by their service dude - WOOOOOOOOOOH EVIL! ;-P
<whitequark>
600R?
<DocScrutinizer05>
landline
<DocScrutinizer05>
a-b
<whitequark>
no clue
<DocScrutinizer05>
analog
<whitequark>
ah.
<whitequark>
but why is it called 600R?
<DocScrutinizer05>
because that's the nominal line impedance
<whitequark>
that simple
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<DocScrutinizer05>
yay
<DocScrutinizer05>
freenode \o/
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<LunaVorax>
Hello!
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<wolfspra1l>
hi
<LunaVorax>
hi wolfspra1l :)
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<paul_boddie>
The Wiki has a NanoNote category and a Ben NanoNote category, the latter with significantly more pages. I guess we should at least put the former category's pages in the latter category unless they're too general for the model-specific category.
<wolfspra1l>
definitely, merge together into the bigger one sounds like a good idea
<wolfspra1l>
thanks for the initiative!
<paul_boddie>
There aren't as many pages as I thought, thankfully. Most of the items are images which I may also try and recategorise, but I was mostly thinking of the convenience of seeing all useful resources in a single category.
<paul_boddie>
It also helps me to find stuff out that I didn't already know. ;-)
<paul_boddie>
I got numpy working at the weekend, by the way. I think people asked for that once upon a time. The catch is that you need to build it with eglibc, and there are some issues with eglibc that I need to look into.
<paul_boddie>
I suppose that the relevant functionality could be ported to uClibc from eglibc, but that's somewhat outside my experience and expertise, currently.
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<whitequark>
news from the russian sonar-manufacturing company
<whitequark>
the main employee has ordered 4-layer boards with 0.1mm wide traces and p&p machine mounting
<whitequark>
for 0m5 RUR (around 15k USD)
<whitequark>
and he _accidentally_ swapped top and bottom layers
<pang>
=)
<whitequark>
pang: you probably have missed the immense stupidity of entire thing
<rz2k>
whitequark: that is the one where grindars works?
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<whitequark>
yep
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<paul_boddie>
wolfspra1l: The EU shop on the NanoNote page doesn't sell hardware any more as far as I am aware. Should we link to other resellers instead or is this going to offend someone? :-)
<rz2k>
lol, I remember that sonar with hole in case for crystal.
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<xiangfu>
paul_boddie, I agree. link to other resellers. :)
<paul_boddie>
xiangfu: Done already! People can always revert my changes. ;-)
<xiangfu>
paul_boddie, great.
<paul_boddie>
xiangfu: Did you ever look at eglibc, by the way? No-one seems to want to talk about it. :-)
<xiangfu>
paul_boddie, eglibc, no.
<xiangfu>
eglibc, since the openwrt using uClibc by default. so I followed openwrt. using uClibc. I have no idea which one is good or bad.
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* xiangfu
search eglibc vs uclibc
<paul_boddie>
I had thought about trying the latest "buildroot" to see whether I could fix other stuff as well, although my initial aim was to have as much working stuff on the NanoNote as possible, so I went for the 2012-04 build.
<xiangfu>
"The EGLIBC maintainers hope that EGLIBC will be binary compatible with GLIBC"
<paul_boddie>
It probably should be as it's derived from glibc.
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<lindi->
afaik they are merging the changes back now finally
<qwebirc35176>
xiangfu: So, what do you think to remove the source entry of the web page?
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<qwebirc35176>
xiangfu: Because I think that more people will try to see the code at web =D
<xiangfu>
qwebirc35176, thanks. done
<qwebirc35176>
xiangfu: Sorry, your note told the people that web is broken, thamks a lot xiangfu !
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<xiangfu>
notice that after I review the page. all much better
<paul_boddie>
Interesting: https://dev.openwrt.org/ticket/9675 - I hope to get eglibc 2.16.1 to build, though, as something went wrong with 2.15, I think.
<paul_boddie>
LunaVorax: Things like choosing between the imperative and infinitive is always best done by a native speaker, I think.
<LunaVorax>
Maybe
<LunaVorax>
I have the advantage of having a French teacher as a mother
<LunaVorax>
:D
<LunaVorax>
So in any cases I can ask her
<LunaVorax>
Plus, she isn't familiar with computer science so I can use her as noob-proof test
<LunaVorax>
That reminds me I should find time to help you translate the wiki
<LunaVorax>
I was translating some things some time ago and College got in the way
<paul_boddie>
OK, thanks for the quick edit! I used to occasionally write simple French documentation a long time ago, and probably just followed the house style. I'll redirect Comment_reflasher to How to reflash/fr.
<LunaVorax>
paul_boddie, sounds like a very good idead
<LunaVorax>
lead
<LunaVorax>
dammit idead
<LunaVorax>
....
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<LunaVorax>
It's too hot to type on the keyboard
<viric>
What do you think of the TI CC11XX radios?
<LunaVorax>
Btw paul_boddie how did you know I spoke french?
<paul_boddie>
I saw your username in the history for the How to reflash/fr page. :-)
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<LunaVorax>
Oh right
<LunaVorax>
The translation sounded familiar...
<paul_boddie>
You made the right choice preferring your own page, then. ;-)
<LunaVorax>
Hahaha
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<LunaVorax>
It would have been funny if I did not
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<qi-bot>
Fabricatorz: Linux User's Group of Davis tonight with @hypermodern about @openfontlibrary @qihardware and @sharism http://t.co/yezBy3WV... ( 237628709882966016@fabricatorz - 27s ago via HootSuite )
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