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<rjeffries>
This cries out for a little MilkyMist love
<whitequark>
then I've looked at the amount of blobs
<wpwrak>
(-:C
<whitequark>
WiFi, Bluetooth, GPS (lolwhat? why the hell GPS should be a blob?!), GSM of course
<whitequark>
*oh, no, Bluetooth isn't a blob
<whitequark>
but all others are
<whitequark>
and of course 3D acceleration is, too
<wpwrak>
yeah, give manufacturers the choice and everything is closed. they'll never learn.
<whitequark>
... then I've looked at the amount of FOSS software for Android
<whitequark>
it's even worse
<whitequark>
currently I have a free PDF reader, and that's all
<whitequark>
every other application is closed
<whitequark>
skype, clock widget, video player (ffmpeg-based), stopwatch, todo list, three games
<whitequark>
apart from skype and games, there isn't any reason a good FOSS alternative cannot exist (I should note that Android itself supports SIP, through)
<whitequark>
but there are none (or they are so crappy no one would use them, ever)
<viric>
for manufacturers is far easier to keep all closed
<whitequark>
viric: why? just release your docs
<viric>
that can be a source of shame. a shame more important for the company than the shame of keeping all closed
<whitequark>
err
<whitequark>
sorry, what?
<viric>
I've never seen an engineer proud of how the product reaches the market
<whitequark>
I think that things like docs on 3D acceleration chip will only be understandable by a small circle of engineers/developers
<whitequark>
not much wider than the circle they're still reaching under NDAs and stuff
<wpwrak>
whitequark: that's what they want you to believe ;-)
<wpwrak>
whitequark: i'm sure they said the same thing about operating system kernels some 20 years ago :)
<viric>
I'm with wpwrak
<wpwrak>
viric: dunno. i experience a certain amount of pride and satisfaction with my open source work. maybe the shame is just a self-fulfilling prophecy ?
<whitequark>
I seriously doubt there are any odds of that doc popping out at Reddit with a shameful commentary
<viric>
And there are engineers in the closed companies ready to write articles about how bad you designed your product
<whitequark>
wpwrak: I'd say that operating system kernels are indeed understandable only by a small circle of developers, even now
<wpwrak>
and these professional bashers regularly get torn apart limb by limb in public discussions ;-)
<viric>
wpwrak: I don't mean proud making open source. I mean making devices or software on a company keeping all closed, and pushing you to deliver the next product next week, whatever the state of development of it
<wpwrak>
whitequark: only that this "small circle" has grown by several orders of magnitude in the last years, thanks to open source :)
<whitequark>
wpwrak: sure
<whitequark>
I still don't get the "shame" part
<whitequark>
seriously
<whitequark>
that sounds stupid and childish
<viric>
wpwrak: you don't have wolfspraul telling you: we have to release it! we have to release it! Whatever you have, next week it goes to production. We already spreaded the marketing.
<wpwrak>
viric: yeah, but as things get more open, the engineer can also fight back better :)
<wpwrak>
maybe that's why his betters like to keep him in the darkness :)
<viric>
Sure
<viric>
Imagine that the internal documentation has the same prose quality as a 10 year old child, among gramatical, ortographical and whatever errors you may imagine
<viric>
The drawings, looking like Micros~1 paint 1-minute mouse drawn schemes
<viric>
if not scanned from pencil
<viric>
and that brings the stamp of the company.
<whitequark>
oh.
<whitequark>
that's a... completely different reason that the ones I've heard earlier.
<viric>
it's an additional effort for the company to make internal documentation 'releasable', keeping the 'level of quality' usually related to that company
<viric>
Not to mention engineering errors... source code with trivial errors... parts outsourced payed very cheap, that does not matter if they fail from time to time, etc.
<viric>
lack of testing, etc.
<viric>
Once all the source is hidden, little may be visible for the final user
<lars_>
yea, actually producing the documentation is usualy more complicated than releasing it
<whitequark>
hm
<viric>
I worked for a company where we used some GPL pieces
<lars_>
and then there are all kinds of legal issues
<viric>
and we had to publish the modifications
<viric>
It was a big headache to do that...
<viric>
And we were told to use as less GPL as possible, just for the additional effort.
<viric>
yes, the legal part was the most complicated
<viric>
(and out of the engineers decisions. There was a group apart that had to be contacted for that.
<viric>
)
<viric>
We had a great respect for GPL
<viric>
BUT
<viric>
the rule was to avoid the headache
<viric>
and 'not violating the GPL' was the easiest part.
<viric>
lars_: did you really mean "producing the documentation is more complicated than releasing it"?
<wolfspraul>
whitequark: let's not waste time complaining about bad software and devices, let's just make better ones
<lars_>
viric: what i meant is that documentation doesn't always exist so you can release it
<lars_>
or at least proper documentation
<wolfspraul>
documentation is best open from day 1 together with and same as the sources
<DocScrutinizer>
hah, Friday night philosophical talk :-D
<wolfspraul>
yeah :-)
<wolfspraul>
how's your job going? full power into 2012? :-)
<DocScrutinizer>
yeah
<DocScrutinizer>
though last 2 days I gone mental about my state as employee
<DocScrutinizer>
doubt I can stand it for a long time
<wolfspraul>
come on, that starts too fast!
<whitequark>
why?
<lars_>
DocScrutinizer: welcome to the club
<wolfspraul>
DocScrutinizer: you are *sentenced* to only think like that after a minimum of 2 years :-)
<DocScrutinizer>
income: 20% of what I'd get for same job on a freelancer basis. Obligations: twice as hard for me to conform with them
<whitequark>
then why the hell are you doing that? :)
<viric>
a girl
<DocScrutinizer>
viric: indeed, correct
<viric>
:)
<DocScrutinizer>
though not exactly the way you probably assume
<viric>
ha, so at the end, you are also human?
<whitequark>
what.
<DocScrutinizer>
she forwarded the job offer to me
<DocScrutinizer>
a friend of her brother in law is working at ST-E as well, and it happened they sat together in that pub...
<DocScrutinizer>
she caled me and passed the phone to that other guy working for same company I do now
<viric>
did you work as a freelancer 'telecommuting'?
<DocScrutinizer>
usually not
<viric>
(I imagine you earned a lot as a freelancer, and you earn as a usual employee now)
<DocScrutinizer>
or maybe 30..60% max
<viric>
ok
<DocScrutinizer>
I earned usual as freelancer, and I earn a bit sub par now
<viric>
In what country?
<DocScrutinizer>
the mayour difference though is: I got 25 days holiday now :-(
<DocScrutinizer>
major
<viric>
I only needed the country for some stereotypes :)
* whitequark
just said "screw holidays" to his employer and begins to work on Jan 3rd
<DocScrutinizer>
and I'm not that fit in sustaining my 130% power day for day. Helath issues even
<viric>
aha
<viric>
well, more work days and more work hours always take down efficiency
<DocScrutinizer>
hah, Jan 2nd, and thanks to the 4 days off between xmess and now I have to work 11h/day al the January
<DocScrutinizer>
to compensate
<viric>
You have to accept living a less efficient life :)
<DocScrutinizer>
that'S something I impossibly can accept
<viric>
(if you subscribe being one more gear in the clockwork that gives money to company owners)
<DocScrutinizer>
I'm just hoping the stress due to learning all day will decay a bit from now on
<viric>
It's like tobacoo. It makes you cough at the beginning, then you get used, then you can't stop smoking, and then it kills you.
<DocScrutinizer>
but right ATM I think odds are I won't do this job in 6 months anymore
<DocScrutinizer>
viric: indeed
<viric>
Before it kills you, you vote for fascists to get into government
<viric>
:)
* DocScrutinizer
extinguishes the cig and sips on his coffee
mth_ [mth_!xjsemlje@c74072.upc-c.chello.nl] has joined #qi-hardware
<kristianpaul>
indeed i start to said that after two years :(
* kristianpaul
sigh working remotelly today
<DocScrutinizer>
I'd love to work remotely - I hate those mass offices
<kristianpaul>
me too, but i was supposed not work _today_ :(
<kristianpaul>
then emergency call :/
<kristianpaul>
mass and cold offices ;)
<viric>
ah, emergencies are always more interesting that normal days
<DocScrutinizer>
a bit odd, but hey, I'd be supposed to work today as well, I just take debit workhours I'll compensate next month
<viric>
The portuguese government may accept half an hour more of work day, to fight the crisis invented by money owners
<viric>
all sounds like the catholic church: your salvation comes through your (not my) suffering
<kristianpaul>
indeed !
<viric>
And in Europe we have the Germans telling us lessons
<viric>
The experts in believing "we are the best" and making the others believe "Germans are the best"
<viric>
that old story.
<viric>
The biases of all popular media around are totally insulting, towards more fasciscm and more suffering, as our salvation.
<viric>
well you know the story :)
<viric>
whitequark: I liked your report on Android, btw. I did not imagine things that worse.
<viric>
that bad.
<wpwrak>
i wonder if cyganomod improves the situation a little
<DocScrutinizer>
here are other countries in EU than exactly Germany that I'd like to give a good kick into the guts for their government BS. E:G: Hungary
<viric>
I've heard very very bad news about the current hungarian government
<DocScrutinizer>
reinventing absolutism
<viric>
aha
<viric>
with a paint cover of democracy
<DocScrutinizer>
HAH
<DocScrutinizer>
thin paint
<viric>
yes
<DocScrutinizer>
today the last free radio station closes down
<viric>
sad
<DocScrutinizer>
meanwhile they're actually worse than Russia or Turkey
<viric>
I only read that about hungary out of common media
<viric>
two days ago.
<viric>
Before that - absolute silence.
<viric>
(common media keeps on with the silence)
<DocScrutinizer>
and those turds are a member of EU
<viric>
the EU does not get into politics
<viric>
they are there for the money.
<DocScrutinizer>
and may do this, without getting a big red stop sign by all others
<viric>
I don't think any ruling person in the EU cares about that
<DocScrutinizer>
I guess all other governments think "let's see how it goes with them, we'd like to do same thing maybe 2 years later if they succeed"
<viric>
They are only going to look at the accounting sheets presented by the hungarian government, and that's lal
<viric>
all
<wpwrak>
why wait a whole 2 years ?
<DocScrutinizer>
it takes 2 years to properly manipulate the votes
<viric>
Ha
<viric>
in your case, at least they need to manipulate the votes.
<DocScrutinizer>
indeed
<viric>
like russia.
<viric>
but in Spain, noone doubts the votes are all correctly counted
<viric>
neither left or right.
<viric>
(although absolutism is not in such advanced state as in magyar)