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<rjeffries> This cries out for a little MilkyMist love
<kristianpaul> for 8 bits lovers
<kristianpaul> oh my ears!
<rjeffries> yup
<rjeffries> and all who love brainfuck (at least as a style)
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<viric> sahip: Years ago I wrote something similar to taskwarrior in sh. http://vicerveza.homeunix.net/~viric/soft/bug/
<viric> sahip: but I stopped developing it, freezing the complexity and the functionality :)
<viric> while the taskwarrior people have kept working hard
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<whitequark> iteadstudio sent me an interesting business card
<wpwrak> how many MIPS ?
<wpwrak> boring. no components
<whitequark> heh
<whitequark> on the software side
<whitequark> I bought an Android phone (SGS2)
<whitequark> then I've looked at the amount of blobs
<wpwrak> (-:C
<whitequark> WiFi, Bluetooth, GPS (lolwhat? why the hell GPS should be a blob?!), GSM of course
<whitequark> *oh, no, Bluetooth isn't a blob
<whitequark> but all others are
<whitequark> and of course 3D acceleration is, too
<wpwrak> yeah, give manufacturers the choice and everything is closed. they'll never learn.
<whitequark> ... then I've looked at the amount of FOSS software for Android
<whitequark> it's even worse
<whitequark> currently I have a free PDF reader, and that's all
<whitequark> every other application is closed
<whitequark> skype, clock widget, video player (ffmpeg-based), stopwatch, todo list, three games
<whitequark> apart from skype and games, there isn't any reason a good FOSS alternative cannot exist (I should note that Android itself supports SIP, through)
<whitequark> but there are none (or they are so crappy no one would use them, ever)
<viric> for manufacturers is far easier to keep all closed
<whitequark> viric: why? just release your docs
<viric> that can be a source of shame. a shame more important for the company than the shame of keeping all closed
<whitequark> err
<whitequark> sorry, what?
<viric> I've never seen an engineer proud of how the product reaches the market
<whitequark> I think that things like docs on 3D acceleration chip will only be understandable by a small circle of engineers/developers
<whitequark> not much wider than the circle they're still reaching under NDAs and stuff
<wpwrak> whitequark: that's what they want you to believe ;-)
<wpwrak> whitequark: i'm sure they said the same thing about operating system kernels some 20 years ago :)
<viric> I'm with wpwrak
<wpwrak> viric: dunno. i experience a certain amount of pride and satisfaction with my open source work. maybe the shame is just a self-fulfilling prophecy ?
<whitequark> I seriously doubt there are any odds of that doc popping out at Reddit with a shameful commentary
<viric> And there are engineers in the closed companies ready to write articles about how bad you designed your product
<whitequark> wpwrak: I'd say that operating system kernels are indeed understandable only by a small circle of developers, even now
<wpwrak> and these professional bashers regularly get torn apart limb by limb in public discussions ;-)
<viric> wpwrak: I don't mean proud making open source. I mean making devices or software on a company keeping all closed, and pushing you to deliver the next product next week, whatever the state of development of it
<wpwrak> whitequark: only that this "small circle" has grown by several orders of magnitude in the last years, thanks to open source :)
<whitequark> wpwrak: sure
<whitequark> I still don't get the "shame" part
<whitequark> seriously
<whitequark> that sounds stupid and childish
<viric> wpwrak: you don't have wolfspraul telling you: we have to release it! we have to release it! Whatever you have, next week it goes to production. We already spreaded the marketing.
<wpwrak> viric: yeah, but as things get more open, the engineer can also fight back better :)
<wpwrak> maybe that's why his betters like to keep him in the darkness :)
<viric> Sure
<viric> Imagine that the internal documentation has the same prose quality as a 10 year old child, among gramatical, ortographical and whatever errors you may imagine
<viric> The drawings, looking like Micros~1 paint 1-minute mouse drawn schemes
<viric> if not scanned from pencil
<viric> and that brings the stamp of the company.
<whitequark> oh.
<whitequark> that's a... completely different reason that the ones I've heard earlier.
<viric> it's an additional effort for the company to make internal documentation 'releasable', keeping the 'level of quality' usually related to that company
<viric> Not to mention engineering errors... source code with trivial errors... parts outsourced payed very cheap, that does not matter if they fail from time to time, etc.
<viric> lack of testing, etc.
<viric> Once all the source is hidden, little may be visible for the final user
<lars_> yea, actually producing the documentation is usualy more complicated than releasing it
<whitequark> hm
<viric> I worked for a company where we used some GPL pieces
<lars_> and then there are all kinds of legal issues
<viric> and we had to publish the modifications
<viric> It was a big headache to do that...
<viric> And we were told to use as less GPL as possible, just for the additional effort.
<viric> yes, the legal part was the most complicated
<viric> (and out of the engineers decisions. There was a group apart that had to be contacted for that.
<viric> )
<viric> We had a great respect for GPL
<viric> BUT
<viric> the rule was to avoid the headache
<viric> and 'not violating the GPL' was the easiest part.
<viric> lars_: did you really mean "producing the documentation is more complicated than releasing it"?
<wolfspraul> whitequark: let's not waste time complaining about bad software and devices, let's just make better ones
<lars_> viric: what i meant is that documentation doesn't always exist so you can release it
<lars_> or at least proper documentation
<wolfspraul> documentation is best open from day 1 together with and same as the sources
<DocScrutinizer> hah, Friday night philosophical talk :-D
<wolfspraul> yeah :-)
<wolfspraul> how's your job going? full power into 2012? :-)
<DocScrutinizer> yeah
<DocScrutinizer> though last 2 days I gone mental about my state as employee
<DocScrutinizer> doubt I can stand it for a long time
<wolfspraul> come on, that starts too fast!
<whitequark> why?
<lars_> DocScrutinizer: welcome to the club
<wolfspraul> DocScrutinizer: you are *sentenced* to only think like that after a minimum of 2 years :-)
<DocScrutinizer> income: 20% of what I'd get for same job on a freelancer basis. Obligations: twice as hard for me to conform with them
<whitequark> then why the hell are you doing that? :)
<viric> a girl
<DocScrutinizer> viric: indeed, correct
<viric> :)
<DocScrutinizer> though not exactly the way you probably assume
<viric> ha, so at the end, you are also human?
<whitequark> what.
<DocScrutinizer> she forwarded the job offer to me
<DocScrutinizer> a friend of her brother in law is working at ST-E as well, and it happened they sat together in that pub...
<DocScrutinizer> she caled me and passed the phone to that other guy working for same company I do now
<viric> did you work as a freelancer 'telecommuting'?
<DocScrutinizer> usually not
<viric> (I imagine you earned a lot as a freelancer, and you earn as a usual employee now)
<DocScrutinizer> or maybe 30..60% max
<viric> ok
<DocScrutinizer> I earned usual as freelancer, and I earn a bit sub par now
<viric> In what country?
<DocScrutinizer> the mayour difference though is: I got 25 days holiday now :-(
<DocScrutinizer> major
<viric> I only needed the country for some stereotypes :)
* whitequark just said "screw holidays" to his employer and begins to work on Jan 3rd
<DocScrutinizer> and I'm not that fit in sustaining my 130% power day for day. Helath issues even
<viric> aha
<viric> well, more work days and more work hours always take down efficiency
<DocScrutinizer> hah, Jan 2nd, and thanks to the 4 days off between xmess and now I have to work 11h/day al the January
<DocScrutinizer> to compensate
<viric> You have to accept living a less efficient life :)
<DocScrutinizer> that'S something I impossibly can accept
<viric> (if you subscribe being one more gear in the clockwork that gives money to company owners)
<DocScrutinizer> I'm just hoping the stress due to learning all day will decay a bit from now on
<viric> It's like tobacoo. It makes you cough at the beginning, then you get used, then you can't stop smoking, and then it kills you.
<DocScrutinizer> but right ATM I think odds are I won't do this job in 6 months anymore
<DocScrutinizer> viric: indeed
<viric> Before it kills you, you vote for fascists to get into government
<viric> :)
* DocScrutinizer extinguishes the cig and sips on his coffee
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<kristianpaul> indeed i start to said that after two years :(
* kristianpaul sigh working remotelly today
<DocScrutinizer> I'd love to work remotely - I hate those mass offices
<kristianpaul> me too, but i was supposed not work _today_ :(
<kristianpaul> then emergency call :/
<kristianpaul> mass and cold offices ;)
<viric> ah, emergencies are always more interesting that normal days
<DocScrutinizer> a bit odd, but hey, I'd be supposed to work today as well, I just take debit workhours I'll compensate next month
<viric> The portuguese government may accept half an hour more of work day, to fight the crisis invented by money owners
<viric> all sounds like the catholic church: your salvation comes through your (not my) suffering
<kristianpaul> indeed !
<viric> And in Europe we have the Germans telling us lessons
<viric> The experts in believing "we are the best" and making the others believe "Germans are the best"
<viric> that old story.
<viric> The biases of all popular media around are totally insulting, towards more fasciscm and more suffering, as our salvation.
<viric> well you know the story :)
<viric> whitequark: I liked your report on Android, btw. I did not imagine things that worse.
<viric> that bad.
<wpwrak> i wonder if cyganomod improves the situation a little
<DocScrutinizer> here are other countries in EU than exactly Germany that I'd like to give a good kick into the guts for their government BS. E:G: Hungary
<viric> I've heard very very bad news about the current hungarian government
<DocScrutinizer> reinventing absolutism
<viric> aha
<viric> with a paint cover of democracy
<DocScrutinizer> HAH
<DocScrutinizer> thin paint
<viric> yes
<DocScrutinizer> today the last free radio station closes down
<viric> sad
<DocScrutinizer> meanwhile they're actually worse than Russia or Turkey
<viric> I only read that about hungary out of common media
<viric> two days ago.
<viric> Before that - absolute silence.
<viric> (common media keeps on with the silence)
<DocScrutinizer> and those turds are a member of EU
<viric> the EU does not get into politics
<viric> they are there for the money.
<DocScrutinizer> and may do this, without getting a big red stop sign by all others
<viric> I don't think any ruling person in the EU cares about that
<DocScrutinizer> I guess all other governments think "let's see how it goes with them, we'd like to do same thing maybe 2 years later if they succeed"
<viric> They are only going to look at the accounting sheets presented by the hungarian government, and that's lal
<viric> all
<wpwrak> why wait a whole 2 years ?
<DocScrutinizer> it takes 2 years to properly manipulate the votes
<viric> Ha
<viric> in your case, at least they need to manipulate the votes.
<DocScrutinizer> indeed
<viric> like russia.
<viric> but in Spain, noone doubts the votes are all correctly counted
<viric> neither left or right.
<viric> (although absolutism is not in such advanced state as in magyar)
<viric> hungary
<kristianpaul> ah yeah
<kristianpaul> i wonder why there is no green or such in this table :)
<DocScrutinizer> green is when no criterion applies
<DocScrutinizer> or rather: no flag is "green"
<kristianpaul> surelly :)
<viric> this osmocom battle is really amazing
<viric> I hope someone writes a book about it
<viric> It deserves lots of notoriety
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<DocScrutinizer> yeah, Harald is amazing
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