Topic for #qi-hardware is now Copyleft hardware - http://qi-hardware.com | hardware hackers join here to discuss Ben NanoNote, atben / atusb 802.15.4 wireless, and other community driven hw projects | public logging at http://en.qi-hardware.com/irclogs
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<kristianpaul>
!seen yi
<qi-bot>
kristianpaul, I don't remember seeing yi.
<kristianpaul>
!seen yi*
<qi-bot>
kristianpaul, I found 2 matches to your query: yizhang, yi-away. yizhang (~yi@116.233.41.193) was last seen quitting #milkymist 2 days 8 hours 29 minutes ago (05.12. 16:27) stating "Quit: yizhang" after spending 13 hours 39 minutes there.
<kristianpaul>
mirko: is the rfm12 driver upstream ?
<kristianpaul>
at least qi kernel, will be nice to get support on it
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<akiwiguy>
hello, everyone
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<mirko>
kristianpaul: what's your definition of upstream?
<mirko>
kristianpaul: it's public :)
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<kuribas>
Is there work being done for a successor of the nanonote?
<kuribas>
I love the idea of the nanonote, but I am taken back by the lack of connectivity.
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<wolfspraul>
kuribas: work yes, but don't expect new hardware that can replace the nanonote anytime soon
<wolfspraul>
the Ben I mean
<kuribas>
Because of production costs?
<kuribas>
It would be interesting if the device could offer something that isn't offered by any competitors.
<kuribas>
For example, the ability to interface directly with the chip.
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<wolfspraul>
kuribas: to interface directly with what chip?
<wolfspraul>
do you have a Ben right now? what do you want to do?
<kuribas>
Not yet. For example interfacing with an audio a/d converter trought I2S.
<kuribas>
Or interfacing with microcontrollers through a serial connector.
<kuribas>
I own a zipit (it was quite cheap), but I don't like the keyboard on the zipit.
<kuribas>
By interfacing I mean having some kind of dock that connects directly with the processor pins.
<wpwrak>
kuribas: it doesn't give your a lot of signals, but it's very very convenient
<kuribas>
Ah, I see :)
<kuribas>
But no usb host?
<kuribas>
The zipit has a 32 pin connector, which exposes quite a lot of pins (for usb, camera, etc...).
<wpwrak>
no, no USB host. the chip would have it but the wires are not bonded :-( so close, yet so far ...
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<kuribas>
Would it be exponsive to change the pcb?
<kuribas>
expensive
<wpwrak>
i think so, yes
<wolfspraul>
kuribas: on the Ben side, we work mostly on the software
<wolfspraul>
then there is atben/atusb
<wolfspraul>
then we work (or should work) on tools like KiCad and boom (sourcing), to help with future manufacturing runs
<wolfspraul>
then we should work on mechanical, but don't right now, not much at least
<wpwrak>
kuribas: another issue is that we'd also need some way to bring the signal out. UBB isn't very nice for this. and adding any other kind of connector would mean a change of the case
<wolfspraul>
then there is Milkymist (the SoC) and Milkymist One, the video synthesizer/instrument
<wolfspraul>
I don't want to list all open items there ;-)
<wpwrak>
kuribas: a case change would cost in the order of USD 100'000 (new molds). so that would have sell quite a lot of bens :)
<wolfspraul>
we should make more mechanical experiments like we did with Milkymist One, not just follow old paths
<wolfspraul>
and no other than Werner did all sorts of steps into that direction as well...
<wpwrak>
agreed. having practical know-how is good to have
<wpwrak>
hmm, makes me remember that i still have to get you some counterweights :)
<wejp>
but even without changing the case, routing some of the SoCs currently unused pins to some test points on the PCB would be very nice for those people who would like to tinker with the hardware and don't mind soldering
<wolfspraul>
on the Milkymist side, there is some slow but steady GPS hacking going on
<wejp>
would it really be that expensive/difficult to just change the pcb a little?
<wpwrak>
dunno. the fab may require a certain MOQ to make such a change. perhaps in the order of ~ 2-3 times the number of units already sold, maybe more
<wejp>
mh :/
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: did i get this estimate right ? based on: units sold so far = about 50% of the units you initially promised to have made. and for a pcb change, they'd want an order of comparable size.
<wolfspraul>
ah, that's so hard to explain :-)
<wolfspraul>
in manufacturing there are tons of moving parts
<wolfspraul>
that's why even serious 'industry analysts' are publishing numbers about the Amazon Fire 'BOM' that I can just laugh about
<wejp>
i'm just asking this, because probably most people interested in the ben are hackers in one way or another and as such even such a rather small change could make the device much more attractive to those people
<wolfspraul>
same for any other 'component breakdown analysis'
<wolfspraul>
all rubbish
<wolfspraul>
I do not see a path ('path') to make that kind of Ben
<wolfspraul>
the Ben is the Ben and done
<wolfspraul>
and selling (just sold one today, and a few the last days :-))
<wolfspraul>
we have the name for the next one already, that's cool... Ya NanoNote!
<wpwrak>
(component breakdown) well, it establishes a lower bound (if they have realistic component prices)
<wolfspraul>
and when and how exactly that magic beast will come out I don't know
<wolfspraul>
nah
<wolfspraul>
all wrong
<wejp>
ok, but is there anything wrong with creating a slightly updated Ben 1.1, if it wasn't too expensive?
<wolfspraul>
no, nothing wrong, in fact it's an honor that people want more
<wolfspraul>
that's motivating
<wolfspraul>
and we are on this, yes
<wolfspraul>
but the path there is not easy to explain unless you watch and understand the many moving parts in manufacturing in general
<wolfspraul>
sure we could jump in and make a Ya, as spec'ed
<wolfspraul>
that would probably cost 500k USD or more
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: so how much money would wejp have to put on the table for you to go to the manufacturer and order a batch with a modified pcb ? and how many bens would wejp get for that ?
<wolfspraul>
by now we have by far surpassed the knowledge level of the original device manufacturer
<wpwrak>
;-)
<wolfspraul>
they invited us to show them some of the 'features' (they mean software) we have on the Ben
<wolfspraul>
they said "our device only has 1x features, but yours has 8x"
<wolfspraul>
bla bla
<kuribas>
What about a funding system like kickstarter?
<wolfspraul>
of course it also went nowhere because our system and their system are fundamentally incompatible
<wolfspraul>
everything, I don't even know where to start
<wolfspraul>
os any modified PCB we just make ourselves, like we did AVT2
<wolfspraul>
the avt2 is a 64mb + usb host board that fits into the Ben case (with some extra holes)
<wolfspraul>
it exists already
<wolfspraul>
all files are there
<wejp>
wolfspraul, i know that building the Ya right now would be expensive, which is why i was wondering if instead doing just a rather subtle change to the pcb would be much less expensive? if it is still very expensive,that's ok, but if it is not and if you guys consider producing anither batch of Ben's once the current batch has been sold, it might be worth considering
<wolfspraul>
you can make it in batches of 10 or 20 more or less economically
<wolfspraul>
what do you mean by "doing a change to the pcb"
<wolfspraul>
you can change design files and upload them somewhere, but then what?
<wolfspraul>
design is only worth so much in manufacturing, over-valued imho
<wolfspraul>
we have AVT2
<kuribas>
I am making a nice UI for the zipit and nanonote (based on X windows and EFL), that could make the device attractive for more people.
<wejp>
wolfspraul, as i said, routing some of the currently unused I/O pins of the SoC to the outsinde to some test points
<wejp>
so they are accessible for hackers
<wolfspraul>
already done, called AVT2
<wolfspraul>
done and produced and tested and works
<wolfspraul>
kuribas: great! :-)
<wolfspraul>
I don't think any more AVT2 will be produced
<wpwrak>
so how much would it cost to make, say, 100 more AVT2 boards ?
<wolfspraul>
bom?
<wpwrak>
or has the ability for this been lost ?
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wolfspraul>
you want to know the famous "BOM"? :-)
<wolfspraul>
maybe 50 USD or so, * 100 = 5000 USD
<wejp>
ok, will that updated pcb ever be sold in a possible future batch of the Ben?
<wpwrak>
(bom) no, money wolfgang-in, 100 AVT2-PCBA wolfgang-out :)
<wolfspraul>
let's add some pcb+smt+wire bonding overhead, 10k
<wolfspraul>
display will be hard to get nowadays
<wolfspraul>
I just sold some of my remaining inventory to Carlos for a local SAKC production I think, or derivative
<wpwrak>
just the PCBA. people can get a ben and swap it themselves
<wolfspraul>
yeah so if you leave out all the work that goes into sourcing, yield, testing, maybe 80-100 USD / board
<wejp>
oh, yeah, just selling those pcb would be nice too i think
<wolfspraul>
don't know about sourcing of 4720 dies
<wolfspraul>
AVT2 hasn't been touched in 2 years or so
<wpwrak>
wejp: so there's your bill: invest 8-10k into qi-hw and you can probably get those boards made
<wolfspraul>
yes
<wejp>
i see
<wejp>
well when those boards have to be sold at about 100 USD, this probably won't work, as the ben costs about the same. probably not worth it then
<wolfspraul>
the low prices kill innovation
<wolfspraul>
for anybody
<wolfspraul>
so users/buyers have to decide what they want
<wejp>
it was just a suggestion
<wolfspraul>
yes, it's good. we are working on this, but with some detours.
<wolfspraul>
that's why I say: boom, mechanical experiments/processes/materials, Milkymist SoC
<wolfspraul>
yes I know a little far-fetched to see how this all connects together, but well, I can only act upon what I learn as I move forward
<wejp>
yeah, sure
<wpwrak>
that's what we need H5N1. a world population of only the 1% the current size wuoldn't offer the same economy of scale -> higher prices -> more innovation ;-)
<wolfspraul>
I am 100% confident that we will be able to continue to build the Ben NanoNote software platform and move it forward into new hardware products
<wolfspraul>
otherwise why would I continue to invest in it?
<wolfspraul>
when I started the Ben NanoNote, I was hoping to build a mutual win-win relationship with Ingenic
<wolfspraul>
(the SoC maker)
<wolfspraul>
after I realized from my endeavor before that what we wanted to do was impossible with Samsung
<wolfspraul>
after 2 years, I finally can say that the chances that this win-win will ever happen slowly approach 0%
<wolfspraul>
that's ok
<wolfspraul>
the Samsung experiment before also took me 2 years :-)
<wolfspraul>
now... the good news is - free software has our own SoC coming
<wolfspraul>
it's called Milkymist SoC
<wejp>
yeah, that's nice
<wolfspraul>
and I saw this as a hedge against inability to really kick Ingenic alive for a long time, so the path is long but hey, it's not that we are unprepared
<wolfspraul>
in parallel I still try to work with Ingenic, of course
<wejp>
so will the Milymist get an MMU at some point?
<wolfspraul>
they have lots of products popping up here and there
<wolfspraul>
like that race-to-bottom tablet Ron was pointing out the other day
<wolfspraul>
so it would be possible to bring some openess quality to some of that, by marrying with what we do with the millions of USD wasted on the side of Ingenic and Ingenic's customers
<wolfspraul>
alas, until today, that marriage hasn't happened
<wolfspraul>
but Ingenic is proud how many millions they have from their IPO :-)
<wolfspraul>
happy spending! :-)
<wolfspraul>
ah
<wolfspraul>
wasting?
<wolfspraul>
nah
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wejp>
heh, i see
<wolfspraul>
so the Ben->Ya path has 2 options
<wolfspraul>
one with Ingenic, one with Milkymist
<wolfspraul>
unless a third one pops up, but I'm not aware of that right now
<wolfspraul>
I'm working on both, but from my time maybe only 2% on the Ingenic side, 98% on Milkymist
<wolfspraul>
that's for the Ya hardware
<wolfspraul>
not much I can do on the Ingenic side unless we find a way to carry forward what we did with the Ben (hardware)
<wolfspraul>
we cleaned up and opened up that whole platform once, for free, for 2 years. if they don't see a value in that, well, then I work on the Milkymist SoC for a while.
<wolfspraul>
Meanwhile Ingenic is so clueless that they are already considering switching from MIPS to ARM. that tells you something about the depth of their software strategy :-)
<wejp>
a Ya with an open SoC would be really nice, but if i see it right, currently the milkymist does not have a MMU, will that be changed in the future?
<wolfspraul>
have some spare time? :-)
<wolfspraul>
that's the interesting part, it's all open
<wolfspraul>
really open
<wolfspraul>
we have some plans if you are looking for a starting point :-)
<wolfspraul>
so yes, a MMU is definitely one of the highest wish-list items for the Milkymist SoC now
<wejp>
i don't have very much time right now, but on the other hand, i am very interested in such things, so a starting point would be nice. it is really difficult to get started with such rather complicated things
<wolfspraul>
it's on the official roadmap (but not at the top for Sebastien), there were plans and discussions on the milkymist devel list
<wolfspraul>
yes maybe, nobody really knows until we go there and try
<wolfspraul>
I also don't know
<wolfspraul>
and I was a long-term kernel hacker (not Linux though, mostly Windows 9X and Windows NT)
<wolfspraul>
but I have no clue about HDL, how to write a MMU
<wolfspraul>
zero
<wolfspraul>
so...
<wolfspraul>
that's the chance to go back to school! :-)
<kristianpaul>
i just skimed and noticed, but sure is there... well at the end i want my router and nanonote to talk, yo yes i _must_ read more
<kristianpaul>
mirko: mom, i saw that before, but the switchsmart library still need a driver on the kernel right?
<kristianpaul>
(let me know if i'm bothering you with all my questions please)
<kristianpaul>
mirko: ?
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<mirko>
kristianpaul: just busy, you're right - it needs a kernel module
<mirko>
that's because of timing and performance
<mirko>
toggling gpio's must be very accurate and causes heavy cpu load at high frequencies
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<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: you are right. not 'cluelesss' depending on how they see themselves. It's just amazing to see how they are unable to tell the difference between good and bad software, working and non-working product.
<wolfspraul>
the only way they can find out the software they spend a lot of money on doesn't work is from sales numbers, I'd say that's quite late.
<wpwrak>
ah ... so they think the root of all their worries is MIPS vs. ARM, while it's pretty irrelevant ?
<wpwrak>
there are easier and harders ways of doing QA :-)
<wolfspraul>
they spend a lot of money on software that would all need to be written off when switching to ARM
<wpwrak>
ah, not the linux way then: just recompile :)
<wolfspraul>
like I said. I now realize what the price and consequences of making 2 USD SoCs are, compared to the 15-20 USD SoCs from TI, Samsung, Freescale, etc.
<wolfspraul>
and the consequence is that you are flying a large airplane nearly blindly
<wolfspraul>
because you don't have any quality staff on board, zero, nobody
<wolfspraul>
that's a problem sooner or later
<wolfspraul>
but it's also the prerequisite for selling 2 USD SoCs
<wpwrak>
the part about customer loyalty due to the cost of migration is interesting. that's a strong argument in favour of open designs (sw and hw), and it's good to see that also regular users realize that this is an issue.
<wolfspraul>
so they are not 'clueless' in a way, they continue their path
<wolfspraul>
it's interesting to see how software-dependant the investents of fabless SoC makers are
<wolfspraul>
that makes me feel good about Milkymist SoC
<wpwrak>
(clueless) yeah, i guess it's okay while it works. do you expect to eventually find their iceberg ? or does this look like a model that's long-term sustainable ?
<wolfspraul>
could be sustainable, depends on what they want
<wolfspraul>
I give you another example in 5 min, brb
<wolfspraul>
22:16 < wpwrak> ah, not the linux way then: just recompile :)
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<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: back. so we talk about the Amazon Fire and why I believe it's the first iPad competitor...
<wolfspraul>
and what chip is inside... TI OMAP4. and how we can work in such a way that the next time a really great product comes out an Ingenic chip is inside, even if in 2-3 years.
<wolfspraul>
the answer? :-)
<wolfspraul>
"we sent our chip to Quanta already, that's how we get it into the Fire. All fine there."
<wolfspraul>
ha ha :-)
<kristianpaul>
arm better supported in Linux?
<wolfspraul>
at that point I realized the downside of 2 USD SoCs
<wolfspraul>
it's the ODM that makes the Amazon Fire
<wolfspraul>
as if Quanta would have *any* authority to change the SoC inside the Amazon Fire!!!
<kristianpaul>
also XO laptop for OLPC time ago
<wolfspraul>
it's just unbelievable
<wpwrak>
hmm yes, i see
<wolfspraul>
maybe they have a strong input on changing some power ICs, maybe
<wolfspraul>
but the SoC???
<wolfspraul>
oh my god
<wpwrak>
but it most work from time to time, no ? or else they wouldn't do it
<wolfspraul>
so I say 'clueless' from a software perspective
<wolfspraul>
oh sure, they send their chips to anywhere where manufacturing is happening, I guess
<wolfspraul>
like a good salesman should...
<wolfspraul>
but while I talk about Linaro, he talks about sending samples to Quanta
<wolfspraul>
being so proud to know that Quanta 'makes' the Fire!
<wpwrak>
what do quanta do ? manufactoring ? design ? chips ?
<wpwrak>
s/manufactoring/manufacturing/
<qi-bot>
wpwrak meant: "what do quanta do ? manufacturing ? design ? chips ?"
<wolfspraul>
who knows, I'd think they are the typical ODM there
<wolfspraul>
but changing the SoC from a TI OMAP to an Ingenic would rip the entire software stack apart
<wolfspraul>
you know that
<wolfspraul>
that's *years* of investments on Amazon's side
<wpwrak>
ah, so you don't even know if quanta may be the wrong tree or not :)
<wolfspraul>
how on earth can they not see this?
<wolfspraul>
oh for sure I know
<wpwrak>
maybe they're not targetting the kindle fire per se
<wolfspraul>
we talked about the Kindle Fire
<wolfspraul>
I'm just giving you this as an example of how far the vision goes.
<wpwrak>
but if people go to quanta and ask them to make them a kindle fire clone, maybe then the ingenic comes out of the hat ?
<wolfspraul>
you think complicated :-)
<wolfspraul>
Ingenic makes SoCs but has zero visibility into software
<wolfspraul>
that's difficult
<kristianpaul>
if i understand correcly Ingenic dont want to make SoCs anymore?
<wolfspraul>
oops, no :-)
<wolfspraul>
Werner asked about 'clueless'
<wolfspraul>
that depends on perspective
<kristianpaul>
hum
<wolfspraul>
they are marching forward on their roadmap, successful IPO in Shenzhen, flush in cash, etc.
<wpwrak>
well,if there are others who do the software for ingenic chips ...
<wolfspraul>
but you cannot buy brain easily :-)
<wolfspraul>
yes but can you work with an SoC maker that doesn't understand software at all?
<wolfspraul>
imagine this in the harshest way possible
<wolfspraul>
don't you think that's a bit risky for their software partner? :-)
<kristianpaul>
ah okay so its about software that works, so mips doest arm do? (sorry repeat this again)
<wolfspraul>
that's why the Letux 400 changed CPUs 3 times in a year (!)
<wolfspraul>
so while Schaller was still struggling to get a 2.6 Linux to even boot, their manufacturer had already changed the CPU multiple times
<wolfspraul>
rotating through whatever they could get in random fights against 'bad sales'
<wolfspraul>
I have a feeling that independent SoC makers will go away or be consolidated into just 1 or 2
<wpwrak>
(letux) nice :)
<wolfspraul>
nvidia already mostly works with very few large customers only, and Marvell is moving there
<wolfspraul>
SoC depends on software and embedded specs
<wolfspraul>
will be interesting to see where Ingenic goes
<wpwrak>
what OS does the kindle use ? linux ?
<wolfspraul>
maybe they only have the option of bottom fishing
<wolfspraul>
heavily modified Android, yes
<wolfspraul>
there's a large market each year of super low price products that don't work
<wpwrak>
has android been ported to mips ?
<wolfspraul>
Ingenic's way is the only way to compete there
<wolfspraul>
ah that's a long story
<wolfspraul>
too long for our happy open hardware team, that's all legacy stuff imho
<wpwrak>
if the customer has a good sw strategy, then the SoC maker doesn't need any. e.g., it would be relatively painless for someone like us to switch from a MIPS-based ingenic 4xxx to an ARM-based 5xxx
<wpwrak>
or an lm32-based milky-ya, for that matter ;-)
<wolfspraul>
why does the SoC maker exist then? who designs the SoC and decides what goes in and what doesn't?
<wpwrak>
let them. they do whatever they think is good. then you choose :)
<wolfspraul>
an SoC maker without software visibility sits in a tough spot
<wolfspraul>
but if they like it there... :-)
<wolfspraul>
maybe Ron will buy one of their tablets :-)
<wpwrak>
i see that more important with users who are themselves weak in sw development
<wolfspraul>
yes but most people are, software is expensive
<wpwrak>
of course, the typical "let's just fork the vendor BSP" approach leads straight into lifelong dependency
<wolfspraul>
that's why the idea that Amazon will allow Quanta to change the SoC from a TI OMAP to an Ingenic MIPS is so absurd
<wolfspraul>
it's as if TI's 1000+ Linux team doesn't even exist
<wolfspraul>
and Amazon's work over the last 5 years
<wolfspraul>
and Linaro
<wolfspraul>
all of that doesn't exist in that thinking
<wolfspraul>
it's irrelevant
<wolfspraul>
but that's why the TI OMAP costs 15 USD, and the Ingenic chip 5 USD
<wolfspraul>
remove some brain
<wolfspraul>
now...
<wolfspraul>
which chip is in the Amazon Fire, today and tomorrow?
<wpwrak>
so what you're saying is that there's no linaro for MIPS. that's the bottom line of the problem ?
<wolfspraul>
I don't know how Ingenic can make it there. We could aim for the next Fire, and I will continue to propose that.
<wolfspraul>
it goes higher to Amazon
<wejp>
TI's linux support sucks pretty much
<wolfspraul>
they have made a lot of software investments
<wolfspraul>
and if you made software investments, you will not like someone switching SoCs under you
<wolfspraul>
unless you are really just doing html5 apps
<wpwrak>
well, we have good ingenic support in the ben and even if we assume all the work was paid at industry rates, we'd probably still only be a fraction of amazon's kindle team alone
<wolfspraul>
yes we should use the Ben as the basis for future products
<wejp>
so if ti really has a linux team with more than 1000 people, they should probably fire them
<wolfspraul>
but I will not do that with Ingenic being completely agnostic to it
<wolfspraul>
then I rather spend more time on our own free SoC
<wpwrak>
so i don't see a need for the soc maker to specifically have good sw skills. but someone in the stack needs them. you run into trouble of none of them does.
<wpwrak>
i think what you're saying is that you tried to "sell" qi-hw to ingenic and they didn't find the idea interesting. and now you're unhappy. fair enough :)
<wpwrak>
you could also go to quanta and "sell" qi-hw as the enabler for using those cheap ingenic chips. or to amazon.
<wpwrak>
in fact, the higher up in that stack, the better, because you can just ignore the mistakes at the layers below
<wpwrak>
e.g., if ingenic provide some closed BSP, you simply don't use it
<wpwrak>
if quanta give you a 2.4 linux kernel, you smile and bin it
<wolfspraul>
yes fully agree about 'the higher the better'
<wolfspraul>
that's why I focus on products right away
<wolfspraul>
and make the ben and m1 work better each day
<wpwrak>
on the other hand, if you're at ingenic, provide the coolest up to date and perfectly mainlined linux support, it all is useless if, say, quanta make a dead-end fork and amazon builds upon that
<wolfspraul>
not unhappy about Ingenic, we keep talking but no need to start something that fails
<wolfspraul>
no Amazon controls the software stack
<wolfspraul>
I like your logic of "sitting higher allows to compensate for mistakes of lower levels" :-)