<bartbes>
the core itself is merely some GC, some general objects and lua bindings
<bartbes>
so I doubt that works
<bartbes>
it is highly modularized though
<bartbes>
as I said I've been porting modules over
<bartbes>
and I just started on a tiny bit of love.graphics
<bartbes>
only the window creating
<bartbes>
so I can test input
<kyak>
ok, i see
<bartbes>
nice, I can create windows now
<bartbes>
now let's cross-compile that
<kyak>
love.windows :)
<bartbes>
what was the nn screen size again?
<mirko>
kyak: not really, i don't see any good reasons, as afaik (larsc may link in here) 2.6.32 is running stable (at least not more unstable than 2.6.35)
<mirko>
kyak: however when you want to have a newer kernel version (I'd like to know the reasons btw :)) - in openwrt-trunk 2.6.35 is the current one
<bartbes>
look at that, it creates windows on the nn as well
<kyak>
mirko: cool! no, i'm really satisfied with how 2.6.32 is running, i just wanted to give it a try to 2.6.35 :) so i'll try openwrt-trunk
<mirko>
kyak: mind, it's the openwrt-config - usb0-IP is 192.168.1.1
<mirko>
and it's _testing_ ;)
<kyak>
ok, thanks :)
<bartbes>
stitches together 2 screenshots
<tuxbrain2>
mirko: may marketing reasons enough to be in the edge of kernel versions? as good marketing guy I'm abstracting from any thecnical reason :P, it's just than we "marketed" the nanonote as be "upstream" and such, "the kernel not just work must live.." bla, bla, bla etc... so if .35 works at least as well than .32 why not make that change?
<bartbes>
you can't read it because it's written in white
<bartbes>
(the background is actually transparent)
<wolfspraul>
he, I love that screenshot
<wolfspraul>
feels like I'm with a doc who wants to test whether I'm insane
<bartbes>
why?
<bartbes>
btw, I got an event loop running, so I can now accept keyboard input
<bartbes>
meaning that all ported modules should work fine now
<bartbes>
actually, I think I'm going to make a small demo that moves the mouse based on keyboard input
<wolfspraul>
bartbes: because I cannot see anything, like you said, but you keep looking at that black space whether you can see anything (screenshot?)
<wolfspraul>
it's fun :-)
<wolfspraul>
I like it
<bartbes>
well, it's mostly to demonstrate I moved the mouse pointer
<bartbes>
is moving around the pointer with the arrow keys
<bartbes>
I call that success ;)
<tuxbrain2>
congrat bartbes!!
<bartbes>
hmm
<bartbes>
this means I'm going to have to write some new backends..
<bartbes>
ah well
<bartbes>
today has been productive enough
<bartbes>
I'll do the rest later :P
<tuxbrain2>
we I said we have to add some love to distros you had taked this words literally :)
<tuxbrain2>
ben now has love to offer :) good motto
<kristianpaul>
wolfspraul: is okay g00gle index our irc logs?
<wolfspraul>
kristianpaul: why not? is it bad for some reason?
<wolfspraul>
a few months ago when we started irclogs zear brought up the issue of the ip addresses being logged as part of the join/part messages
<wolfspraul>
we have fixed that now, only public messages and actions are logged. also I cleaned all the old logs, so at least on our servers that data is gone and will not be collected anymore.
<wolfspraul>
actually I am just in the process of replacing Google Analytics with Piwik :-)
<kristianpaul>
wolfspraul: not sure if bad
<kristianpaul>
just is g00gle :p
<wolfspraul>
the piwik data is collected and controlled on the qi server, which means we can purge it after x days, same as the apache logs etc.
<wolfspraul>
we still use google for some mail accounts, and jabber too. can fix that later :-)
<kristianpaul>
use 2% of google
<wejp>
actually, i don't like the fact that this irc channel is being logged
<tuxbrain2>
come on, this is a public channel and is a lot of valuable information discussed here than any other way will be lost forever... I don't understand this reticence really.
<wejp>
no
<wejp>
it is like recording every conversation you have and publish it so everyone (not only the participants) can read it
<wejp>
this way, everyone will be able to read it, forever.
<tuxbrain2>
but this is not a private conversation, is like a continuous debate arround concret topic, and yes the debates usually are recorded and keep forever :P
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain2: wejp has a point. conversation on irc tends to be more like a verbal conversation, where some privacy is implicitly assumed. with mail, you tend to be more careful about what you write. however, irc logs can indeed be valuable sources of information. so there are conflicting interests, both valid.
<wejp>
no, you are wrong. this is a conversation between a limited number of people, which is being made available to the whole world afterwards
<wejp>
wpwrak, yeah, you are right here.
<wejp>
the thing is, i don't want to think each time i write something, if i really want that to be saved for the whole world
<wejp>
it is way different from writing something on a wiki or a forum where you explicitly publish it with this intention
<wolfspraul>
if there were 2 public qi-hardware channels, a logged one and an unlogged one, what would happen?
<wejp>
i for one would surely prefer the non-logged one
<wolfspraul>
wejp: I would agree with you but with IRC the concept of 'public' is already clear by default, unless you have an explicitly private channel
<wejp>
but i doubt it is a good idea to have two channels
<wolfspraul>
in other words - if you don't log a channel, you may actually create a false perception of privacy
<wolfspraul>
because you have totally no control over the nicks in this channel, and you don't know what they do with the data
<wejp>
wolfspraul, even with irc it is not public in that every conversation is available to everyone, but to the participants at the given time
<wejp>
you can even see who is in the channel
<wolfspraul>
so you might even argue that publicly logging a public IRC channel is the right thing to do from an enlightenment angle
<wolfspraul>
wejp: yes but you:
<wolfspraul>
1) don't know who they are
<wejp>
well yes, you don't know what they do with the data, but you don't know that for almost everything, even private emails could be published
<wolfspraul>
2) don't know when they come or go
<wolfspraul>
3) don't know what they do with the data
<wolfspraul>
ok, but we are talking about irc and #qi-hardware now
<wejp>
yes, but that is not a good argument for logging the channel
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: i think most people don't really think about the issue. it's also quite uncertain what negative consequences could (in practice) arise from this
<wolfspraul>
I think we should say that #qi-hardware is logged in the title of the channel
<wejp>
the is the very least that should be done
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: so providing a choice may not really help
<wolfspraul>
well, I just speak for myself
<wolfspraul>
when I write something in a public IRC channel, I already apply any normal 'public' self-censoring to my language
<wolfspraul>
it doesn't change if I know it's also logged on an HTML page or not
<wpwrak>
only the paranoid survive ;-)
<wolfspraul>
I write differently in private conversations.
<wolfspraul>
right werner?
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wolfspraul>
now, if some IRC channel would not be logged, I still wouldn't change that
<wolfspraul>
in fact just on irc, there are many people that are logged in from a server, logging everything, etc.
<wejp>
still it is a big difference if people log for themselves or if the logs are published to the internet
<wejp>
searchable by everyone, even years later
<wolfspraul>
yes but you don't know who is logging and for what reason
<freespace>
maybe it should be in the topic, so ppl can act accordingly
<wolfspraul>
isn't that even worse?
<wolfspraul>
oh sure, totally agree. must be in the topic.
<wejp>
no, and that'S a really bad argument for logging
<wolfspraul>
why?
<wolfspraul>
I think it's a very good argument.
<wolfspraul>
this _is_ a public channel
<wolfspraul>
nicks are totally self-chosen
<wolfspraul>
it's public
<wejp>
because you never know what people do, but that doesn't mean you should do those things your selve (or even worse things) just because somebody could do that too
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: people often want to be identified by their conversation partners
<wejp>
as i said, a public channel is still only readable by those who have joined the channel by default
<wejp>
wpwrak, exactly
<wejp>
of course i could choose a random nick, but that would be pretty useless
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: of course, you could log in as "a785fb6bf33af6ffdb459c8fd0c3f915a74a1fa33d03de3d2a314b8dc2fe99b0" and then /msg to everyone you know who you are :)
<wolfspraul>
yes but we are debating the pros and cons of html logging this channel now
<wolfspraul>
the pros are clear, I try to understand the cons better
<freespace>
do ppl actually use the online logs to gain knowledge?
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: but then, you may still be tracked by your writing style or the information you post. if someone wants to find out who you are, there's probably little difference to just using plain nicks.
<wolfspraul>
definitely
<freespace>
i understand that is the intention, would like to know if it is borne out in practice
<wejp>
the pros are clear? actually i don't see many reasons for logging at all
<wolfspraul>
freespace: for example I don't stay logged in all the time (ha ha, I don't use a server to log channels :-)), so I check the html logs to read back on old stuff, and already caught many interesting things
<freespace>
fair enough :)
<wolfspraul>
the search also works quite nice, since in IRC discussions tend to happen over time sometimes, and the search will pull the lines neatly together
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: i don't think a solution exists that would make everyone happy. you could anonymize the logs, but that would either make the conversations incredibly hard to read, or you'd have the same problem with traceable "random" nicks.
<freespace>
or we can just behave like we do on the mailing list?
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: we are moving in that direction already, by not logging join/part messages anymore, not logging nickname changes, and also removing all this stuff from the archives
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: plus, it would make searching the logs harder, in case the author or recipient is part of the search input
<wolfspraul>
ok tomorrow I try to find out how to update the topic of this channel
<wolfspraul>
the logging should be announced there, first step
<wolfspraul>
I would be interested in an experiment of two #qi-hardware channels, a logged and unlogged one
<wolfspraul>
would be interesting :-)
<wpwrak>
sounds good to me. no risk, no fun :)
<freespace>
whois the bot?
<freespace>
maybe add an !invisible
<freespace>
to stop logging that person
<wolfspraul>
on this channel here? qi-bot
<freespace>
you can even do it after the fact with some parsing
<wpwrak>
ah yes, "don't log me". why not. or just log "foo said something"
<wolfspraul>
freespace: wejp can type some command so qi-bot will not log him anymore?
<wolfspraul>
I didn't even know that is possible :-)
<freespace>
well it is possible, i don't know if eggdrop does it by default :P
<wolfspraul>
that's cool then, we should also advertise that more
<freespace>
no, i mean it is possible
<freespace>
i don't know if eggdrop implements it
<wolfspraul>
well I happily remove anybody's stuff from the server, of course
<wpwrak>
you could still be tracked by context in many cases, e.g., when you announce you just sent wikileaks the launch codes for the us and russian icbms, but at least there would be no direct quotes
<freespace>
we might have to hack eggdrop to add the command
<wpwrak>
a manual alternative would be a killfile that just removes, say, /^wejp:/
<freespace>
or, grep "!invisible" log | awk <appropriateness here> | sort | uniq > invisible.users; then loop over that using a sed -i
<wolfspraul>
it's best to make the opt-out as easy as possible
<wolfspraul>
nah, don't even record it
<wolfspraul>
I am fighting all the logging everywhere
<wpwrak>
not recording in the first place also helps against subpoena attacks
<wolfspraul>
I for one would not feel one bit differently whether the channel is HTML logged or not, because I don't know who the others are and what they do with the data. but that's just my personal feeling of course.
<wolfspraul>
in fact I think _all_ irc protocol traffic is recorded indefinitely by a variety of parties already
<wolfspraul>
but that's another story...
<nebajoth>
there's absolutely nothing preventing any user from converting his own lurky-lurky irc logs into html
<nebajoth>
who's freaked out by it?
<wolfspraul>
sure not
<wolfspraul>
and joining the channel under whatever nick is the #1 normal way to get here :-)
<wolfspraul>
it has been the culture of IRC since day 1
<wolfspraul>
private and invite-only channels are the special case
<nebajoth>
hello
<nebajoth>
(also)
<wpwrak>
my conversation style is more loose on irc. more banter, more off-topic, some possibly offensive topics/language. also every once in a while, i catch myself having written something that i'd consider too sensitive for mails to a list.
<nebajoth>
its definitely less formal
<freespace>
doesn't look like there is any kind of existing support for opting users out of logging...
<wolfspraul>
sure, because it's irc - just chatting :-)
<freespace>
perhaps wpwrak can implement this... :P
<nebajoth>
I think that's taken into account by people reviewing irc logs
<wolfspraul>
ouch don't suggest it to him
<wolfspraul>
I will still juggle the scripting monsters in 20 years.
<nebajoth>
MUST HAZ SECRET TREEHOUS
<wpwrak>
freespace: i may offer it a place in my todo list with a one-year forecast ;-)
<freespace>
heh :)
<bartbes>
someone said you can always see who is in the channel, but isn't that the case for qi-bot as well? :>)
<bartbes>
ehm
<bartbes>
>:)
<bartbes>
personally, I don't care, I'm crazy all over the nets ;)
<nebajoth>
personality segmentation
<wolfspraul>
if we would have an easy way to remove wejp from html logging I would have added the nick already :-)
<nebajoth>
that's the ticket
<bartbes>
there is a simple way
<bartbes>
/kick wejp
<bartbes>
;)
<nebajoth>
haha
<nebajoth>
you could do it with sed
<nebajoth>
sed script after the fact
<nebajoth>
put it on a cron
<nebajoth>
I just don't understand why in the context of a radically open project
<bartbes>
I guess you sanitize it just before uploading
<nebajoth>
why you would ever consider it seriously
<bartbes>
*could
<zedstar>
dont get naked on chatroulette is my tip of the day
<bartbes>
hehe
<wolfspraul>
I think privacy issues are very important for this project, the motivation of a lot of people that support copyleft anything, copyleft hardware.
<wejp>
those are two different things, an open project and logging conversations. i really like how extensively almost every aspect of the nanonote and the other projects is being documented on the wiki. but on irc there's also offtopic discussions (which is normal and just fine)
<bartbes>
no, no, no
<wolfspraul>
no backdoors, no phoning home, no logging/tracking everywhere, privacy in general
<wejp>
wolfspraul, yes and thank you for taking this seriously
<bartbes>
we have *open* off-topic discussions ;)
<bartbes>
(yes, I realize I haven't really contributed something to this conversation)
<wolfspraul>
wejp: oh totally, thank you for bringing it forward. it was the same with zear months ago, when I just proceed with the first style of logging, still with IP addresses and all. until we finally improved that.
<wolfspraul>
we can improve more, I'm sure!
<wejp>
:)
<wolfspraul>
I just spent the day replacing google analytics with the same software running on the qi server, so we can delete everything after a little while.
<kristianpaul>
go sleep :)
<wejp>
that's cool
<wolfspraul>
yes was about time. it was easy and fun too actually. Piwik works nicely.
<wolfspraul>
kristianpaul: yeah I'm out now... n8
<wejp>
yeah, i have checked out piwik a while ago, looks really nice
<wejp>
the only thing i don't like about it is its use of flash for the charts
<wejp>
could also be done with javascript only
<wolfspraul>
yes saw that too, but at least they already use flash a lot less than google analytics
<wolfspraul>
btw, if anybody sees value in that, we can exclude the irclogs in robots.txt. that's easy.
<wolfspraul>
I don't think a google search will ever directly lead to a daily irclog anyway, will it? don't know...
<wejp>
excluding it from google's bots through robots.txt would be a start, i guess
<wolfspraul>
if nobody objects I'll just do that
<wolfspraul>
he - I'll read in the irclogs tomorrow morning whether someone objected - how about that :-)
<wolfspraul>
n8 now...
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul in absentia: if you exclude google, how are _we_ supposed to find anythgin there ? ;-))
<kyak>
actually, what can be done is a !vote eggdrop script that will stay here for couple of weeks to make sure everyone has a chance to vote the simple question "to log or not to log"
<kyak>
this would be fair
<nebajoth>
I'm totally against excluding irc logs from google indexing
<nebajoth>
unless you really want to set up our own index
<nebajoth>
it throws the baby out with the bathwater
<nebajoth>
irc isn't JUST for the off-topic conversations that wpwrak seems to worry about so much
<nebajoth>
at least 80% of it is on-topic, relevant discussion
<nebajoth>
the entire point of logging is so that we can offer on-topic, relevant discussions indexed
<nebajoth>
as an additional resource from our project
<nebajoth>
why don't we just set up a parallel, unlogged channel?
<nebajoth>
many projects do exactly that
<nebajoth>
one channel for support and development chat
<nebajoth>
one channel for off-topic, off-colour conversation
<nebajoth>
I don't see the challenge of keeping an awareness that you are being logged in the developer channel
<nebajoth>
and not saying idiot things as a result
<nebajoth>
but I don't know what the big deal is anyway
<nebajoth>
what "privacy" are we supposed to be maintaining in the context of this project?
<wejp>
it not about saying idiot things
<wejp>
i have no intention to do that
<wpwrak>
nebajoth: oh, you may say that chips from, say, TI really suck, that you think their prices are pure robbery, and that you despise their business ethics in general. now, one year later, you apply for a job at TI. human resources do a google search and find you.
<wpwrak>
nebajoth: or you may say something that's confidential and someone does go after you for this
<wejp>
yep, good example
<wpwrak>
nebajoth: so there are potential risks. whether they really matter enough in practice is another story.
<kyak>
wpwrak: btw, do you really want such a bitch employer, who's judging you by what you (presumably) said somewhere?
<wpwrak>
nebajoth: e.g., anyone you meet in the street could decide to ram a large kitchen knife into your chest, yet the risk of this is actually happening is low enough that most of us aren't afraid of actually leaving our fortress every now and then
<wpwrak>
kyak: it may be just HR that's a bitch. due diligence and such.
<kyak>
if one is a real expert and a good head, adequate employer won't care what you said and when
<kyak>
yeah, world is small and weird, everything can happen
<wejp>
kyak, this is so wrong. in a perfect world it would be like this, reality is way different from that
<wpwrak>
kyak: that's what i'd assume as well. that's why i don't consider this a real risk for myself. your choice of potential employers and your own risk assessment may vary, though.
<kyak>
anyway, i don't care either way
<nebajoth>
I can't see it either
<nebajoth>
its #qi-hardware, not #4chan
<nebajoth>
and if you say nasty stuff about Texas Instruments, you shouldn't even be wanting to work there a year later
<wejp>
huh?
<kyak>
no, why not? what if i really want to make them better? :)
<nebajoth>
I still don't understand what you think is going to happen
<nebajoth>
its never a good idea to post private information, like personal address, for example, in a public channel
<nebajoth>
that should always be done in PMs
<nebajoth>
so just don't do it
<nebajoth>
at all
<nebajoth>
and if you have beef with a supplier, free speech says you should be able to say anything you like about them
<nebajoth>
and have the moral strength to stand by it later
<nebajoth>
there should be no information posted in this channel that compromises your privacy
<wejp>
you might not understand that, but some people use a nickname so others know who they are. unfortunately that also implies everyone can make this connection.
<nebajoth>
so?
<wejp>
so your argument with not posting personal information is nonsense
<nebajoth>
what
<nebajoth>
ok
<nebajoth>
walk me through the worst case scenario again
<nebajoth>
there's something I'm not understanding, clearly
<wejp>
obviously
<nebajoth>
yes
<nebajoth>
obviously
<nebajoth>
lets try again
<nebajoth>
so you're chatting
<wejp>
why not take wpwrak's example with the employer?
<nebajoth>
with your buds
<nebajoth>
ok
<wejp>
which part didn't you understand there?
<nebajoth>
the part where you'd work for them, I think
<nebajoth>
if you hated their products
<nebajoth>
or why you'd say something so nasty about their products that they wouldn't hire you
<wpwrak>
nebajoth: maybe you changed your mind. or you need the money badly.
<wejp>
what? even if i hated one of their products, it does not neccessarily mean that the company as a whole sucks or something
<zear>
so someone other than me also doesn't like the logging on this server? :)
<zear>
*channel
<wejp>
yeah, or you just change your mind
<wpwrak>
nebajoth: hah, people never complain in exaggerated ways when they're unhappy about something ;-)))
<rafa>
nebajoth: can not you tell wrong things?.. I mean.. I say.. linux sucks.. then .. one year later
<wejp>
this actually happens
<rafa>
nebajoth: I use linux
<nebajoth>
you should be able to walk into an interview with an engineer during the hiring process and defend everything you've said
<rafa>
nebajoth: and I realized that it is good
<nebajoth>
if you can't, you may not be smart enough for the job
<zear>
rafa, there are more serious things you can say here you might regret in 10 years
<rafa>
nebajoth: but somebody will reject a business with me because
<rafa>
I said that
<zear>
religious, political, financial, etc
<zear>
that's why i only talk about nanonote here
<nebajoth>
don't say them in #qi-hardware?
<nebajoth>
yes for sure
<wpwrak>
rafa: you say "linux sucks". five years later, there's rafa exclusion clause in the gpl 4 ;-)
<nebajoth>
that's my point
<wejp>
zear, true, the employer thign was just one example
<rafa>
nebajoth: don't talk anywher
<rafa>
e
<nebajoth>
haha
<nebajoth>
well, its OK in private channels with people you trust
<wejp>
there are lots of things which you might regret later being available to everyone, even though you did not mean to do or say anything bad or stupid at that time
<rafa>
wpwrak: ;-))) yeah.. and I JUST DID!
<nebajoth>
even there you have to realize everything logs
<nebajoth>
its just the way the internet works
<wpwrak>
rafa: and even using your real name ! you're so in trouble :)
<zear>
it still limits me because i can't be so openminded with you guys here
<rafa>
cya
<zear>
but it's ok
<nebajoth>
there's nothing stopping us from starting another channel
<nebajoth>
one without logging
<nebajoth>
the problem here is the overlap between people who want to stay on-topic
<nebajoth>
and people who apparently want to chat
<nebajoth>
there's no problem with either, but rather than tweaking the logging, we should be using the tools MADE for such division in topic-orientation
<wejp>
i don't want an aditional channel for off-topic things only
<nebajoth>
ie: split the channels
<zear>
this is a serious business, even if 90% of people here are linux geeks
<nebajoth>
you just want private things to be redacted from a running log
<wejp>
also oftne enough you are on-topic and then drift into an off-topic discussion
<zear>
so i guess we can't have nice offtopic discussions here
<nebajoth>
why isn't the onus on you to stay on-topic?
<nebajoth>
and if you drift off-topic, you should be running the privacy risks consciously
<kyak>
we can keep logs, bue exclude them from google index or even make it private?
<nebajoth>
I don't want to exclude from google index
<nebajoth>
unless we have our own
<nebajoth>
even then
<wejp>
you want everyone to think about every single word one says twice? that might work when writing on a forum, but a chat is meant for realtime conversation
<nebajoth>
people should be able to search for information in our irc logs
<zear>
if anyone wants offtopic discussion without a risk of google caching it, feel free to join #dingoonity
<nebajoth>
because its stuff that doesn't necessarily make it to the wiki or email list
<nebajoth>
wejp: its all just streams of text, dude
<kyak>
nebajoth: how many people have searched our irc logs so far? who are those people?
<nebajoth>
I constantly do for other projects, kyak
<nebajoth>
especially supybot
<kyak>
i think mainly there are few people from here, who wanted to see "what happened at night"
<wpwrak>
kyak: yes, where's the log !? ;-))
<nebajoth>
and I look through our mailing list archives a lot
<zear>
so who's in favour and who's against the logging again? I'm confused :D
<nebajoth>
I'm completely in favour of logging
<wejp>
i'm sure you are
<nebajoth>
public access to logs
<wejp>
nobody knows who you are anyway
<nebajoth>
now you're just getting aggressive
<nebajoth>
I can see why logging is a concern
<zear>
i would like if the nicks and references to nicks in the logs could be removed
<nebajoth>
I dunno
<kyak>
just make the logs nickless? could be a good idea
<zear>
then we could cache the logs without a risk of assigning the messages to the nicks
<wejp>
maybe that could be done
<nebajoth>
I judge whether people know what they're talking about by nick
<wpwrak>
zear: i'm slightly in favour of logging. of course, i log everything locally anyway. a public log would make it easier to refer to things said on irc, without first having to ask for permission.
<wejp>
but it is not a simple task
<zear>
wejp, but we need not only remove <wejp> or wejp as the first word of the message
<zear>
we need to filter the whole message and remove any "wejp" reference
<kyak>
wejp: yeah, like this message i'm mentioning you in
<wejp>
exactly
<wpwrak>
/nick the
<zear>
because i can say something like "have you guys heard that wejp said this and that?"
<wpwrak>
or, better, /nick not
<zear>
and it will be logged
<wejp>
but you cannot just remove it because then the context of parts of the conversation might get lost
<nebajoth>
:O
<wejp>
sou you would have to replace it with a random temporary nick
<zear>
wejp, the messages can be colored
<zear>
so the context of the discussion won't be lost
<nebajoth>
I could live with that
<nebajoth>
well
<wejp>
but colors would not help in some situations
<nebajoth>
then you lose data from previous days
<wpwrak>
reminds me of my old suggestion to sneak a  #define while if  into some system's/distro's headers
<zear>
but as i say, it's enough someone puts your nick in the middle of the sentence, or mistype it and the filter won't remove it
<nebajoth>
unless the nick was universally replaced throughout the logs
<zear>
and then it will be easy to assign your nick to your messages
<wejp>
if one references a certain person, because there are multiple conversations going on, this reference would get lost
<kyak>
wejp: another good idea, just rename yourself here to some random nick?
<nebajoth>
haha
<zear>
kyak, won't work
<zear>
because he uses this nick on other channels in ircnode
<zear>
*freenode
<kyak>
he can open another client connection
<kyak>
this is not a problem
<zear>
but that's just a dirty workaround
<wejp>
kyak, this doesn't work for some reasons: first i would have to use a different irc client for this channel. while this would be possible, it would be to cumbersome so i would rather not join the channel at all
<nebajoth>
I'm also in #serial-rapist and #hates-texas-instruments
<wejp>
also people know me be the name and oftne enough ask me questions
<wejp>
when they don't know my random name this doesn't work
<kyak>
wejp: not necessarily. most irc client can connect to multiple servers under multiple nicks
<kyak>
they'll know you by that random nick
<wejp>
ok, but then i would have to connect twice to the same network and would not be able to use my bouncer for that
<kyak>
but this is just technical issue, it is solvable
<wpwrak>
kyak: random nicks would also be a pain to tell apart
<wejp>
yeah, true
<wejp>
but still the problem with people not recognizing me would remain
<kyak>
so you want to be recognized, but not logged :) what if you future employer is right here?
<kyak>
or sharing some other channel with you?
<wejp>
kyak, i guess i can take that risk. i see 39 people in here
<wejp>
but there are several billion people on earth possibly be able to read the channel logs
<wejp>
quite a difference
<wejp>
also i see an even bigger problem in being able to trace a single person over years through those logs
<zear>
wejp, not only people, BOTS!
<zear>
advertisement bots
<wejp>
bots too
<nebajoth>
O_O
<zear>
so in case someone is reading this log, looking for dirty stuff on me, get lost man!
<kyak>
i b
<zear>
oh, and if you're checking if i am a good worker - yeah man, hire me :D
<wpwrak>
zear: or think ex-wife on a revenge trip. these can be persistent.
<kyak>
i bet antone googling for "irc logs" in two days will find this nice discussion ;-)
<kyak>
*anyone
<nebajoth>
rofl
<zear>
yeah, and let's say we had a discussion about some barely legal stuff, it would be easy for her to frame me later
<wpwrak>
kyak: we we're all doomed ;-)
<wejp>
kyak, of course
<wpwrak>
zear: (barely legal) it will be claimed that she wasn't ;-)
<wejp>
lol
<zear>
even a sane discussion about c and p could easily ruin someone's life
<wejp>
see, we're all off-topic now ;)
<zear>
yea
<nebajoth>
I live my life off-topic
<wejp>
we should move over to #dingoonity :P
<zear>
hehe
<zear>
as long as i'm in charge there, there will be no public logs :P
<wejp>
:D
<nebajoth>
taking my ball
<nebajoth>
and goinnnn home
<zear>
hmm.. and how about giving the access to logs only for registered members?
<nebajoth>
against
<zear>
that way we could prevent google from caching it, yet still making it easy for everyone interested to access it
<nebajoth>
oh
<nebajoth>
hmmm
<nebajoth>
if it was easy to register
<zear>
and allow to log with openid
<nebajoth>
I'd be in favor
<zear>
yeah, with openid it should be easy
<wejp>
hm
<nebajoth>
we'd need to index it ourselves likely
<nebajoth>
which is doable
<nebajoth>
with xapian or something
<wejp>
yes, that should be possible
<nebajoth>
I would agree to that
<nebajoth>
I just want a resource
<nebajoth>
available to people with a low barrier of entry
<nebajoth>
if it was easy to get into, it would be a decent compromise, imo
<wejp>
still i think really important stuff should be put onto the wiki
<nebajoth>
oh for sure
<zear>
hmm.. google can read doc and pdf formats, so i guess publishing the logs in that formats wouldn't prevent it from caching it
<nebajoth>
and forum posts
<wejp>
it is really cumbersome to search logs for useful information anyway
<nebajoth>
but for the same reason its easy to drift off-topic, its also easy to let valuable tidbits of information
<nebajoth>
answers to user questions posed in-channel
<nebajoth>
sort of
<nebajoth>
get lost
<nebajoth>
its cumbersome, but its saved my bacon a few times
<nebajoth>
when my questions weren't answered in mailing lists, forums, or wikis
<wpwrak>
(restricted access) now, how often do you want to get just some bit of information from the web ? how do you feel if google tells you it's on a forum, and that forum requires you to register to read first ?
<nebajoth>
true too
<nebajoth>
angry usually :P
<zear>
wpwrak, how often forums offer you openid login?
<zear>
never, henve your frustration
<wpwrak>
heh, one more obstacle :)
<zear>
here you could easily access the logs with your openid account
<wpwrak>
which percentage of the internet population even knows what openid is ? :)
<zear>
99% of people interested in the nanonote
<zear>
i'd risk 100%, but then someone from this channel would say he does not have openid ;)
<nebajoth>
and tons of people have them by accident
<nebajoth>
like any livejournal user
<zear>
hmm.. wait, wait.. but can't we just add that stuff to robots.txt so google won't cache it? :D
<nebajoth>
that's what started this off
<zear>
ah
<wejp>
yes, that's what wolfgang already suggested
<nebajoth>
I want caching
<nebajoth>
unless we have our own index
<zear>
and still anyone could upload his logs from this channel on the net
<zear>
but yeah, the public log already does it and we have to limit it from showing private bits of logs
<wejp>
zear, yes, but how likely is it that someone uploads all logs from this channel?
<zear>
wejp, someone who idles a screen session? :D
<wejp>
;)
<nebajoth>
imma only upload the stuff zear and wejp say
<nebajoth>
JK JK
<zear>
:D
<wejp>
lol
<zear>
anyway, have to go, cya guys
<wejp>
me too, cya
<viric>
Today I built scummvm for the BEn
<viric>
But at start it says it can't open the mouse
<viric>
Any clue on what to do to get a keyboard interface for it?
<viric>
zedstar: I don't use openid :)
<viric>
zedstar: but I know (only a bit) what it is about
<rafa>
viric: do you see any graphic screen or you just get the stdout error?
<bartbes>
wejp: case in favor of the irc logs, I looked up the screenshot I posted here earlier today
<bartbes>
(just saying)
<Textmode>
whats jLime like?
<rafa>
Textmode: what do you mean?
<Textmode>
rafa: just looking for opinions
<rafa>
ah.. then mine does not count :)
<urandom_>
Textmode it is very nice, has matchbox and mplayer and all
<Textmode>
huggles rafa
<Textmode>
umm...I should probably let it finish downloading before I try and install it :P
<rafa>
Textmode: sd version works a bit better than nand.. but just for few things.. For example, if you want to install some package via opkg, with really many many dependences it would like to use swap. If you install on sd (and follow the instructions) it will have swap and the Linux will be happier
<Textmode>
meh, should have said that earlier.
<Textmode>
I've already installed the first two files, just waiting on jlime-muffinman-image
<rafa>
no problem.. you can use it well anyway
<urandom_>
i gues it could also have swap on NAND in theorie, could it?
<tuxbrain2>
Textmode: actually just booting on jlime, the user experience is really great, and also due it have demo content to test (images, video, text, also contains a help file to indicate how to control them) fine details , openwrt should copy
<Textmode>
well, i'll see soon enough :P
<rafa>
urandom_: yes, and we are thinking to add swap on nand for the next beta.. because we upload these often I think that nand version will have a tiny file swap at least soon.
<tuxbrain2>
yes a how to create and activate a swap file
<tuxbrain2>
will be cool ;)
<Textmode>
doesn't NAND have finite write cycles?
<tuxbrain2>
same as SD
<Textmode>
true, but its easier to throw away an SD and put in a new one :P
<tuxbrain2>
is matter on how time we are talking about :)
<rafa>
Textmode: we could create a random file on every boot for nand. Create and make a 8MB of swap would take just few seconds.. 5 perhaps.
<rafa>
and we would not write on the same place on every boot. And swap is not always used
<Textmode>
hmm, if you say so.
<kristianpaul>
rafa: wpwrak nice pics and hack btw :)
<tuxbrain2>
how->how much
<Textmode>
download faster, dammit...
<urandom_>
it could also detect if sd card is inserted and if so use the sd card for swap
<rafa>
urandom_: it actually does that I think :)
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: did you solder that at home?
<kristianpaul>
how was the reflow?
<tuxbrain2>
wolfspraul: kernel and rootfs from jlime flashing from SD not working, kernel unable to open ubifs partition,
<tuxbrain2>
same files but flashing through uboot jlime booting and running.....?
<wolfspraul>
tuxbrain2: don't understand you. What is your question?
<rafa>
wolfspraul: he tried to install on nand via sd, but he got a system which was not able to mount rootfs. Then he installed via usbboot the same files on nand, and that boots well.
<tuxbrain2>
well sorry is not a question , it was the result of my test and the question mark is the state of my mind,
<tuxbrain2>
rafa:pretty neat font :)
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: oh, that's just manual soldering, with the iron. didn't need to fire up the reflow oven :)
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: hey good, :)
<wpwrak>
rafa: btw, i forgot something: i didn't write-protect the boo loader. so in theory, broken firmware could brick the idbg.
<wpwrak>
booT even
<rafa>
wpwrak: you mean if somobody reflash again the idbg using a broken firmware?
<wpwrak>
rafa: you need a broken firmware that happens to try to overwrite the boot loader, yes
<wpwrak>
rafa: pretty unlikely to happen, though. well, we can fix it quickly when you come over the next time.
<Textmode>
idbg?
<wpwrak>
Textmode: yes, the boot loader in idbg
<Textmode>
what is the idbg? :P
<kristianpaul>
is the awesome thing for the nn ever made ;)
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: i'll hire you as my public relations agent ;-)
<kristianpaul>
:p
<wpwrak>
reorganizing all the code to support different hardware types was a bit of a pain. that's why it took so long for the new version. i had the circuit working already weeks ago.
<kristianpaul>
where is TP25 btw, i cant find it :/
<kristianpaul>
TP75**
<wpwrak>
what is it ?
<Textmode>
I can't seem to enter numbers into the jlime terminal...
<rafa>
tuxbrain2: Textmode : numbers on terminal: shift + red arrow + number. We do not know how to use fn key on X yet. But after number appeared on screen (and if you are using the terminal) you need to press once red arrow (it looks like it enables something.. and you need to press again to disable). Really weird and hard to fix. That is why we will use rxvt soon.
<Textmode>
hmm.
<wpwrak>
rafa: sounds like a rather creative way for entering numbers :)
<Textmode>
also, what the hell is the volume key in gmu? the nn volume buttons do nothing :P
<Textmode>
rafa: I like to call it "redshift"
<rafa>
wpwrak: no idea how to config fn key :P.. I have asked if somebody has ideas with xmodmap.. but 0 answers so far.
<wpwrak>
redshift must die :) well, in the ya. i hope.
<wpwrak>
rafa: just adapt the kernel :)
<rafa>
Textmode: I like to call this mode (shift+red arrow+number) "shit"
<rafa>
:)
<kristianpaul>
nice touch suign Makefiles for PCB's :)
<Textmode>
nah, I meant I called the red arrow key "redshift", I propose "redshit" as the name for that combination. :P
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: "make pcb" ;-)
<Textmode>
again, how the hell do adjust the volume in gmu?
<rafa>
so far, to avoid a bit the "shit mode" this is the TODO for beta 3 : add calcurse, add rxvt, add 5x7 font (xorg misc fonts), remove current terminal, enjoy that
<Textmode>
wpwrak: not so great with earphones.
<wpwrak>
Textmode: you could put some long screws into them to act as headphone-head spacers, and adjust the volume by turning them.
<Textmode>
...
<wpwrak>
Textmode: useful if you ever want to infiltrate a mad scientist convention without getting noticed
<Textmode>
the nanonote is vibrating from the volume...
<wpwrak>
subwoofer ?
<Textmode>
no, just really f-ing loud.
<kristianpaul>
rafa: how i do enable transparency in rxvt?
<Textmode>
I'm serious though, this is almost unusable if I can't adjust the volume.
<Textmode>
my only real option is to see if I can find my dummyplug to at least mute it, but thats hardly a solution.
<urandom_>
you really cant adjust volume? i can in gmu using the volume keys but i mostly use openwrt for gmu cause it boots faster so not sure
<Textmode>
urandom_: I really can't, the volume buttons do nothing in GMU.
<urandom_>
maybe you have the red arrow activated?
<Textmode>
in the movie player it seems to be the same as left/right (rewind, and fastforward)
<Textmode>
yeah, i tried the redshift too.
<tuxbrain2>
Textmode: sure it can be fixed, at least you can remap volume keys in the gmu config file
<Textmode>
hmm...
<tuxbrain2>
A good thing should be unifi common control (volume, ff, rewind, pause, etc) with same keys along media players or at least gmu and mplayer :)
<rafa>
Textmode: perhaps gmu volume has some issue with X. For X vol keys is page up/down.
<rafa>
you can install alsa mixer as well
<rafa>
but it should work. Let me check, if there is some problem I will add that task for the beta3. And I am doing that version during these days.
<rafa>
kristianpaul: No sure if rxvt has tranparency. Do you know if it has?
<rafa>
Textmode: mplayer volume works and also othere functions, but it takes a few seconds to react, no idea why mplayer takes that time
<kristianpaul>
rafa: it said in the manual
<kristianpaul>
i just cant figurout with is not using it
<kristianpaul>
even gnome-terminal do know after edit teh.Xdefault but rxvt not :/
<kristianpaul>
s/know/now
<rafa>
kristianpaul: perhaps it needs some help from X, no idea really
<kristianpaul>
ok
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: so, will you build an idbg for yourself ?
<Textmode>
I still don't know wha an idbg is...
<wpwrak>
Textmode: it's a usb to serial converter with a few extras. for the ben's serial console. what distinguishes it from other solutions is that you have a proper usb receptacle on the ben.
<wpwrak>
Textmode: the extras are that you can remotely hardware-reset the ben and also control usb boot (the one implemented by the cpu's rom)
<Textmode>
interesting.
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: maybe
<kristianpaul>
not seems to hard
<kristianpaul>
at least i have the solder iron and the laser printer :)
<kristianpaul>
so..
<kristianpaul>
i need to qoute the mcu and read about programing it, later..