<Nistur>
not exactly sure how useful that would be apart from making a curiosity though... It has no real sense of context in it's current design... it just knows that you (for example) like looking at the time, that you like looking at photos with the title HalleBerryNNN, or that you like FFT'ing certain data files
<Nistur>
what you really need is to have it have more input
<Nistur>
I definitely understand the desire to simplify things but it severely limits the abilities of the system
<cess11_>
To me it is quite obvious it wouldn't be useful.
<cess11_>
Hence the question 'I wonder if it would be fun to write'.
<Nistur>
fair enough. I just think that given just a couple more commands it would actually be able to learn useful things... maybe even just a 'later'
<Nistur>
obviously you couldn't tel pavlov's dog 'later'
<Nistur>
Regenaxer: you know I went out and bought an S7 yesterday?
<Nistur>
it was entirely pointless for me to do so.
<Regenaxer>
oh! why?
<Nistur>
I got it because our client contacted us with the email saying "I'm using a Galaxy 7, which I thought was now supported. Performance is not good"... just that, nothing else... so we panicked and tried to reproduce this... which required me actually having an S7 to test on... we cannot reproduce it at all, we're getting a near solid 30 frames per second when we test it... so from what we can tell, either
<Nistur>
the client doesn't have an S7 (maybe a J7 or C7?) or they've installed an old build which DID have performance issues (I made some fixes about a week ago)
<Nistur>
but we won't find out until next week because the client is relatively unresponsive... and also apparently quite uncommunicative. That email seems like the most detail they've ever supplied with an issue they've had :P
<Regenaxer>
haha!
<Nistur>
at least my boss sorted my expense claim so I didn't actually pay for the device *shrugs*
<Regenaxer>
tough
<Nistur>
not sure about other software dev, but it's pretty normal in gamedev work-for-hire
<Nistur>
generally the client wants a shiny game and they want it working perfectly smoothly at all points in time, and they obviously want it to make money... so when it doesn't hit one of those criteria, they'll complain, but they don't really care about the process, they just say "fix it"... and get back on with their own work
<Regenaxer>
Thats not only in game dev
<Nistur>
the only time clients actually care about the processes is when you don't want them to :D
<Regenaxer>
sadly yes
<Nistur>
btw: 7 orders on teespring, total of 9 tshirts and 2 stickers :P
<Regenaxer>
good :)
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<Nistur>
I especially like the fact that they're saying that all users will be treated as if the same privacy laws applied to them
<Nistur>
... if that was the case, it wouldn't matter to them (in fact, it would benefit them because of the irish tax stuff) to keep the stuff in Ireland
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<Nistur>
Oh Facebook, as each day goes by, you make me happier and happier I've never used you (or "been used by you"?)
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<beneroth>
well, they probably have a shadow profile about you
<beneroth>
I never used it, too
<beneroth>
neither?
<Nistur>
either
<Nistur>
I use privacy badger which blocks the trackers on websites, so they will contain incomplete data on me
<Nistur>
I use a variety of VPNs (although, mostly from the same VPN company, but I pick random servers around the world) so they are unlikely to be able to geographically place me
<Nistur>
I also occasionally switch to tor, not because I'm doing anything more illegal or anything, just to mix it up a bit :P
<Nistur>
I _have_ made an account, but I actually made that while I was in another country (coincidental)... I used it to tick the boxes saying "don't send me any emails ever", and the main reason was that my girlfriend (now wife) wanted to be in a relationship with me on her account
<Nistur>
so they know I exist, but I doubt they have much valid data on me
<beneroth>
not bad. I haven't been so throughout yet
<Nistur>
my main issue is Google :P I was an early adopter of android, and I have my gmail account which I'm finding it difficult to get rid of...
<beneroth>
I have an android, but only a tiny fake-account. not using any google services.
<beneroth>
they probably get enough metadata, but I'm not willing to help them.
<Nistur>
I'm mostly using signal, because of the similarity to whatsapp, and the fact it's a drop in replacement for the standard SMS app on Android, it's a relatively easy sell to people. I think I have most of my contacts (that I actually talk to) using signal
<Nistur>
I did... basically a review on secure messengers previously, so I have tox and ring set up too, I never got around to trying briar though
<Nistur>
for reference, I'm really not hiding anything. I just have this aversion to the whole Big Brother thing :P Plus it's an interesting area to investigate
<beneroth>
no point in telling us here. picolisp acts as a great filter, in that regards we have usually very common views ;)
<Nistur>
:)
<beneroth>
and if 'they' eventually go through our logs here to find something incriminating, they will find something they can spin their way, no worries.
<Regenaxer>
Uh!!
<Regenaxer>
Now I received a Samsung Xcover 4 from the customer
<Regenaxer>
BUT!! It seems to be 32 bit (?)
<Nistur>
oh?
<Regenaxer>
The docs say it is a Cortex-A53 CPU
<Regenaxer>
But I installed Termux first, and picolisp
<Regenaxer>
The PicoLisp is 32 bit!
<Regenaxer>
Strange!!
<Regenaxer>
Does Samsung use a 32 bit OS on a 64 bit CPU?
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<beneroth>
possible
<Regenaxer>
:(
<beneroth>
weird but possible. Asians like to do weird stuff with ARM afaik.
<Nistur>
samsung put different CPUs in the same devices sometimes
<Regenaxer>
This explains why PilBox does not worm
<Nistur>
they might have put a 32 bit OS on it maybe
<Regenaxer>
T
<Regenaxer>
Big problem now
<Regenaxer>
PilBox emu also does not run as it is now
<Regenaxer>
as it checks for the architecture CPU
<beneroth>
oh
<beneroth>
so you have to change the checks
<Regenaxer>
But emu is not what I want to use here
<beneroth>
well good that we have nice weather, so you can take a walk and solve it ;)
<Regenaxer>
haha
<beneroth>
Can 64bit software even be run on that OS ?
<Regenaxer>
Probably not
<Regenaxer>
that's why it does not start the binary
<Regenaxer>
grrr!
<beneroth>
clear error messages are so hard to write... another case of 1 min time saved costs others days
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<Regenaxer>
I can find out which system is running by inspecting /system/bin/dalvikvm -> dalvikvm64
<Regenaxer>
Or is there a better way?
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<cess11_>
Profiling is usually done of the physical device. Privacy Badger is basically a scam to promote Mozilla or EFF or whoever maintains it.
<cess11_>
One needs to block all JS everywhere and possibly whitelist audited web sites as well as run browser software that is uncommon and doesn't leak device info, e.g. from running CPU or other components and measuring little details in timing and whatnot.
<Nistur>
EFF
<Nistur>
tbh, I trust EFF more than most other entities
<Regenaxer>
PilBox is fixed now
<Nistur>
Regenaxer: what was it?
<Regenaxer>
I changed the system check
<Regenaxer>
I should not check for CPU, but ABI
<cess11_>
Right, but when you decide to run Hotjar EFF can't do bleep.
<Regenaxer>
Now it runs on Xcover, albeit as emu only
<cess11_>
Great!
<Nistur>
did I understand that the OS is 32 bit only on that for some reason?
<Regenaxer>
Nistur, exactly
<Regenaxer>
stupid
<Regenaxer>
CPU is 64-bit, but they waste it
<Regenaxer>
I write to the list now
<Nistur>
:)
<Nistur>
to be fair, I am running a 32 bit OS on a 64 bit CPU so I cannot complain :P
<Regenaxer>
haha, yes, I forgot :)
<Regenaxer>
emu does the opposite ;)
<Nistur>
:)
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<beneroth>
cess11_, if you run a browser software that is uncommon you are easier to track, as then the browser info can be used. even when you fake User-Agent it is very hard to make the browser not identifiable. see https://panopticlick.eff.org/
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<cess11_>
beneroth: My hypothetical example was software specifically designed to not leak data that can be used to identify the device, but somehow this fictious software doesn't implement mitigation of software profiling and you somehow know about this and that the hypothetical dev:s should read about another EFF marketing ploy.
<cess11_>
Much impress, very wow.
<beneroth>
you feel offended very quickly. Sorry, I was not aware you were speaking about a hypothetical non-existing miracle thing.
<beneroth>
Unless the de-facto (= implemented, used) standards get reduced, I feel its very unrealistic to achieve good protection from the computer (webserver) you connect to. E.g. identifying a single webuser via the window-size of the browser (css media queries) is a thing. by reducing your browser to not implement all this features makes it identifiable again (would only work if the majority in your region, better worldwide, would use the exact same browser with
<beneroth>
the same settings). granted, the browser could fake the behaviour to fill in some noise, but I hardly believe that this can be done advanced enough to a) make it not a identifiable signal in itself b) make it similar to all surfers around you so you cannot be identified correctly.
<beneroth>
panopticlick can maybe viewed as an advertisement for EFF, but the methods it is about are neither fictional nor uncommon.
<cess11_>
Your ignorance and sloppiness aren't offensive, just irritating.
<beneroth>
so I don't believe you can reduce this topic to an "EFF marketing ploy".
<beneroth>
well then educate me.
<beneroth>
being irritated about the state of things is easy. changing something is the only thing that matters.
<Nistur>
there are plugins which, for every web request you do, spin off tens or hundreds more requests, so maybe you'll be tracked, but there'll be a lot of noise
<beneroth>
Nistur, what does this help against the website you visit being able to identify you (vs. their other users) ?
<cess11_>
Nothing.
<beneroth>
ditto.
<beneroth>
this might help against passive network surveillance, but
<cess11_>
It is just some noise that gets discarded.
<beneroth>
they probably can find a pattern in your noise and filter it out.
<Nistur>
possibly, I've not looked into it yet. I just know that it exists
<beneroth>
sounds more like unnecessary energy waste to me.
<Nistur>
possibly
<beneroth>
(a lot of these ideas are. e.g. encryption implemented in JS..)
<Nistur>
apparently my laptop has at least 20.49 bits of identifying information
<Nistur>
the user agent ias 19.49 bits... I can certainly change that
<Nistur>
*is
<Nistur>
"one in x browsers have this value" ... this MIGHT be because very few people will have Surf/2.0 in the User Agent string :P
<beneroth>
you don't even need to be identifiable globally, if you are the only user with a specific profile/pattern in a given area/IP-range/whatever-not-concealable-attribute this is enough.
<cess11_>
Forget EFF, they have good lawyers but awful technology presentations. Look at what Hotjar, Cisco and others are actually doing instead.
* Nistur
is just going to replace the whole useragent string with "Mozilla/4.0" and see if much breaks
<beneroth>
just remove the UA completely :)
<beneroth>
(though this is a signal too, ofc)
<beneroth>
EFF cisco does something good?
<beneroth>
ah cess11_, you point out cisco and hotjar as bad guys? ok, agree.
* beneroth
does not believe that this can be (fully) solved technically. in the end, people spying on you is a social problem, not a technical.
<cess11_>
Yes, this is why self censoring is the effect and why modern states allow it, it helps them keep control.
<anjaa>
without the technology it would never happen on this scale. you can't reduce it to either-or, it's a question of power and profit using technology to get both
<beneroth>
anjaa, too. but we allow (laws) (new) technology by default. the regulatory systems are not keeping up.
<beneroth>
cess11_, T
<anjaa>
yes
<anjaa>
tech always comes first, regulations when it's already too late
<beneroth>
I think we have to optimize and speed up the regulatory process, that's the attack vector on this things. cess11_ work might be useful for this.
<Nistur>
beneroth: well, using Mozilla/4.0 still was fairly uncommon, but using "Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:56.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/56.0" dropped the bits of identifying information down a lot :P
<anjaa>
a huge problem is the technological illiteracy of politicians combined with the fact that they're mostly too arrogant to see they could be at fault
<beneroth>
T
<Nistur>
this is for Surf, which is a minimalist webkit based browser, running on a 32 bit version of Linux, not Firefox, a Gecko browser, running on Win64... so there's a good chance that it might break some stuff... but also it's common AND misleading :D
<anjaa>
Nistur: how old are you?
<beneroth>
luckily we have not cut down education and do encourage critical and scientific though more then ever, so this should get better with the next generations. /sarcasm
<Nistur>
anjaa: not entirely sure how that is relevant to the current conversation, apart from that maybe it has something to do with leaking identifying information :P
<anjaa>
Nistur: just interested in whether i'm right or not
<beneroth>
anjaa, having age bias?
<Nistur>
anjaa: about my age? Ok, take a guess, I'll tell you whether you're close
<Nistur>
I've already mentioned it in this channel before so you COULD just look at logs :P
<anjaa>
beneroth: no
<anjaa>
i just find that certain types of language use and social interactions are more prevalent in certain age brackets
<beneroth>
naturally, language is a living evolving thing
<Nistur>
anjaa: so, what is your impression of me? I promise to probably not be hurt
<anjaa>
no thank you
<beneroth>
interesting
* Nistur
shrugs
<beneroth>
bbl
<arievw2>
Had no time yet for diving into PicoLisp itself. But he, just read PILBOX docs. This is really *awesome*!! Instead of bloated apps just a very small app + scripts is *very* nice.
<arievw2>
Just wondering how to protect scripts if you sell them ...
<arievw>
Since I think PicoLisp is really awesome and I'll certainly dive in, I bought a t-shirt as well ;-)
<Nistur>
:)
<Nistur>
I am excited to get mine :P
<arievw>
Luckily they *have* 5XL :-))
<arievw>
(For me that is ...)
<cess11_>
arievw: Sell the service and development, not the code.
<cess11_>
MIT, BSD or some of the GPL are suitable for licensing the code.
<Nistur>
no code is protected. Anything CAN be reverse engineered, especially interpreted code like picolisp... if you are worried about it being copied, the best you could probably do is to EULA it and make it illegal to do so, but still that's not much of a protection
<cess11_>
Which happens to be a religious tyranny based on an ideology of spiritual work giving one rights to all things that look like something one once did.
<Nistur>
if you REALLY cared (not that it'd help much, just make it more annoying to reverse) you could do something like split the code into a loader and an application. The application is in an encrypted blob, the loader is obfuscated (ie every symbol replaced by random letters) and issue 'licenses' which are encryption keys to communicate with a server, that, when queried, will provide an encrypted encryption
<Nistur>
key for the application code
<cess11_>
Nah, too expensive, competitors will put similar effort in and improve their products and you'll be left behind by all except perhaps some advertisement controlled hardcore fans.
<Nistur>
depends on the software you're creating to be fair
<Nistur>
the encryption stuff is simple to implement
<Nistur>
the obfuscation a little less so
<Nistur>
I couldn't do it in picolisp particularly quickly yet, but give me a day in lua which I've had a little bit more expience with, and I could have the above automated :P
<cess11_>
Sure, I'll gladly take a look when you're done.
<Nistur>
hah, I don't have time right now :) I have a tonne of other projects, my point was that if you were developing software that you wanted to protect, it's not too big of an investment... I mean, I agree that you should be able to release the source for free and sell support, but sometimes that's not possible, maybe you have clients/investors who won't allow that... the trick is then to make it less
<Nistur>
attractive to spend the time to compromise your software. Putting a EULA on it will make it illegal to modify it, but with something like picolisp where it's purely intepreted, it's still trivial to copy/modify, so if you put _some_ obfuscation/encryption on it, then it'll deter most people.
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<cess11_>
It is trivial to crack anyway, as the video game and film industries have learned the hard many-dollar-way. You need special hardware at the least. This is why I offered to look at some shot at doing it, I've seen some 'industrial strength' attempts in C/C++ get broken by clever people in a few hours.
<arievw>
cess11_ I agree with "tyranny". It is really disgusting that even plant gens are being patented. However, there must be a way to get paid for getting things to work.
<cess11_>
No there mustn't. That is at the heart of that religion, that one needs to sell work first, then one gets to eat.
<cess11_>
It is in the way of automating this that are hard and necessary.
<cess11_>
s/this/things
<arievw>
I really think that patents are bad. At least they should decrease the amount of time they are "valid" in order to give other parties a chance...
<arievw>
Getting to eat without delivering is (in most cases) Utopia ...
<arievw>
Or do yopu see fit to get food without doing / selling something?
<arievw>
s/yopu/you
<cess11_>
Could you give an example of someone who's not doing something?
<arievw>
Not doing = not doing something with which you can exchange either goods or money with other persons or companies. So, apart from the few living in areas where they can pluck fruits and live off the (free) land, I guess every person must offer some "doing" or "value" to others in exchange for "food" or whatever IMHO.
<cess11_>
So kids aren't persons? How about those with cerebral paresis?
<arievw>
He, that's of course not what I mean! I am totally convinced that the whole community should take care of the weakest. And normally, parents have to take care for children. So, it is about the people being able to *do* work OF COURSE! I think we should stop about this here. I am sure F2F would be totally different. In that case it is possible to nuance every sentence / word immediately. I really *am* concerned about those
<arievw>
who, for whatever reason, can't do the same things as others. They are my (our) responsibility. But then, still, I (we) need to generate some trade / income to be able to support ourselves (and our families) and even those who can't help themselves.
<arievw>
Bye for now and best wishes (for every person in the world)!
<cess11_>
You can't eat fiat. It is obviously not necessary for human survival.
<cess11_>
Also, I'm not so sure those are the weak if there are any, but I'm sure you'll explain it in more detail later.
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<beneroth>
well it's hard to communicate together when one hasn't (setq) the same values to the same symbols (words).
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<cess11_>
Right, I should just stick to reading the logs sometimes.