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<tankfeeder> beneroth: ping
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<beneroth> back
<beneroth> tankfeeder, pong
<tankfeeder> beneroth: add irclog to topic, plz
<beneroth> I'm not channel operator, freenode tells me
<DKordic> Greetings everyone.
<beneroth> tankfeeder, I will try out what there is to do
<tankfeeder> ok
<beneroth> unless Regenaxer knows about it, I guess you created the channel?
<beneroth> ah, I guess Regenaxer has to /msg ChanServ
<beneroth> Regenaxer, please do something like this:
<beneroth> /msg ChanServ topic #picolisp PicoLisp language | Channel Log: https://irclog.whitequark.org/picolisp/ | Picolisp latest found at http://www.software-lab.de/down.html | check also http://www.picolisp.com (new site) for more information
<beneroth> maybe s/Channel Log/Log ?
<tankfeeder> yea
<tankfeeder> do it
<beneroth> Regenaxer,
<beneroth> /msg ChanServ topic #picolisp PicoLisp language | Log: https://irclog.whitequark.org/picolisp/ | Picolisp latest found at http://www.software-lab.de/down.html | check also http://www.picolisp.com (new site) for more information
<beneroth> when I do it, I get response: -ChanServ- You are not authorized to perform this operation
<C-Keen> you need to be on the authorisation list for the channel
<beneroth> yeah
<beneroth> maybe some core IRC member should get OP rights
<beneroth> s/member/members
<beneroth> lets see when Regenaxer is back :)
<beneroth> thanks for configuring the log, tankfeeder
<beneroth> hm. thx
<beneroth> rob_w is not online
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* beneroth just tested something
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<tankfeeder> so, we dont have access to channel
<beneroth> aye
<beneroth> Regenaxer has to contact rob_w or we have to try to convince some freenode admin that we are the legitimate users/owners.
<DKordic> beneroth: Do You have a 64-bit ARM tablet? How to avoid Android as much as possible?
<beneroth> Yes. Good question.
<beneroth> For the moment I don't avoid Android, I just disabled and restricted all access as far as I could.
<DKordic> Is there, at least, a way to do Android HelloWorld from _CLI_? I had a very hard time googling it.
<beneroth> Regenaxer does the same afaik. He was on CynagenMod in the past, switched to LineageOS, but that gave him suddenly problems (OS hangs, I think). So he is too back on standard android.
<beneroth> DKordic, there are multiple ways to have picolisp on Android. 1) Install app "termux", which is a cli with packages, including a package for picolisp. So you can use pil with it on CLI just the same as on PC. 2) pilBox, the picolisp android app with repl.
<tankfeeder> beneroth: we need announce in ML, to contact rob_w
<beneroth> tankfeeder, Regenaxer probably have direct contact data to reach rob_w
<tankfeeder> cool
<beneroth> and anyway, if rob_w is on ML, then Regenaxer has at least his email address :)
<beneroth> no need to make a mail to all ML members.
<tankfeeder> where was info how to enable picolisp colors in vim ?
<Regenaxer> ret
<Regenaxer> Sorry
<Regenaxer> hmm, yeah, I try to contact rob_w
<Regenaxer> /msg ChanServ topic #picolisp PicoLisp language | Channel Log: https://irclog.whitequark.org/picolisp/ | Picolisp latest found at http://www.software-lab.de/down.html | check also http://www.picolisp.com for more information
<Regenaxer> oh
<Regenaxer> I tried /msg ChanServ and it seems rob_w already gave me permission (?)
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<Regenaxer> hmm, no. Did not work
<Regenaxer> the topic message
<Regenaxer> I wrote to rob_w
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ChanServ changed the topic of #picolisp to: PicoLisp language | Channel Log:
<rob_w> https://irclog.whitequark.org/picolisp/ | Picolisp latest found at
<rob_w> more information
<Regenaxer> i
<rob_w> ooops
<rob_w> hang on
<Regenaxer> Hi rob_w! :)
ChanServ changed the topic of #picolisp to: PicoLisp language | Channel Log: https://irclog.whitequark.org/picolisp/ | Picolisp latest found at http://www.software-lab.de/down.html | check also http://www.picolisp.com for more information
<rob_w> correct ? seems so
<Regenaxer> Yay
<Regenaxer> Perfect
<Regenaxer> Thanks!
<rob_w> np
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<Regenaxer> cool indeed! Nice to have a log now
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<Regenaxer> s
<Regenaxer> upsi
<rob_w> new log ?
<beneroth> rob_w, thanks for updating the topic
<rob_w> ur welcome
<beneroth> yeah an external free service which logs the IRC channel
<rob_w> didnt we have that before ?
<Regenaxer> I did not know such thing exists
<Regenaxer> not yet
<rob_w> well i guess there are many logs of the whole freenode ;-)
<rob_w> but that one is still nice , its even alive ;-)
<Regenaxer> yes, the priciple is obvious
<beneroth> yes, tankfeeder activated this one for our channel :)
<rob_w> so then, better dont chitchat around anymore, only valid and proper picolisp conversations
<beneroth> we have chitchat from time to time here. about everything.
<beneroth> sometimes interesting.
<Regenaxer> Right! Concentration, the world is watching!
<beneroth> sometimes just me blabbling *g*
<Regenaxer> ! :)
<beneroth> Aye Chief
<beneroth> oh lets test what it does with my umlaute: ähm öhm über é è à
<beneroth> Regenaxer, displays correctly for me: https://irclog.whitequark.org/picolisp/2017-10-09
<beneroth> interesting
<beneroth> <meta charset='utf-8'>
<beneroth> copied from website source: ähm öhm über é è à
* beneroth is debugging Regenaxers pil IRC client :P
<Regenaxer> In my client here your Umlauts appear as Kanji as before
<beneroth> and when you browse to the website?
<Regenaxer> Well, debugging ... it just means they don't arrive as UTF-8 here
<Regenaxer> yes, correct in log
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<Regenaxer> The website tries to detect the charset I suppose
<Regenaxer> and converts
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<beneroth> interesting. though it is well likely that the website bot is more tolerant
<Regenaxer> But Irc itself does not send UTF8 it seems
<beneroth> for me both looks the same, but I didn't look at the byte values
<beneroth> yeah. I should switch to a bot anyway, like you.
<Regenaxer> The website bot *is* tolerant
* beneroth means bouncer running on a server
<Regenaxer> my client is not :)
<beneroth> yep. picolisp is not tolerant. shit in shit out :)
<Regenaxer> as pil cannot handle other charsets
<Regenaxer> T
<rob_w> what , no utf8 in pil ??
<Regenaxer> I could pipe input through recode or iconv
<beneroth> rob_w, utf8 in pil !
<beneroth> nothing else
<Regenaxer> rob_w, no *other*
<rob_w> ah , only utf8 ..ride on
<beneroth> no tolerance for legacy windows ansi codepages or utf-non-standard-weirds like \uXXXX notation etc
<Regenaxer> yeah
<rob_w> +1 to that !
<rob_w> brb coffee
<beneroth> pil does it according to standard. problem is, nobody else does fully ;)
<beneroth> yep, pil is fine.
<Regenaxer> Hehe, no problem here
<Regenaxer> irc is usually English
<beneroth> T
<beneroth> hm.. nice DRM idea.. use special chars in function names.. *evil*
<Regenaxer> not really DRM, as we just get Kanji :)
<Regenaxer> 漢字
<beneroth> DRM is never really DRM. it is artifical bloat. http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/entry/23
<beneroth> I received kanji from you
<Regenaxer> yep
<Regenaxer> exactly
<beneroth> back to topic
<Regenaxer> it means "kanji" ;)
<beneroth> Regenaxer, how to trigger the base64 encoding of the subject in (mail) ? how to call mail to trigger the encoding?
<beneroth> no example for this in reference
<Regenaxer> it should just do it
<Regenaxer> (ifn (find > (chop Sub) '("~" .))
<Regenaxer> ie if it detects non-ASCII chars
<tankfeeder> Regenaxer: i've wrote parser for fasta task
<tankfeeder> question:
<Regenaxer> ok
<tankfeeder> how to pass strings to function like I read from file (in "fasta.dat" ...)
<tankfeeder> ?
<tankfeeder> i dont want depend on files here
<Regenaxer> You mean to "read" from a string?
<Regenaxer> This was asked sometimes
<Regenaxer> Not possible with 'in' etc
<Regenaxer> You can parse with 'str' or 'any'
<beneroth> well possible if you put it into a pipe loop?
<Regenaxer> right
<tankfeeder> i can remove (in) part
<Regenaxer> Can you give a minimal example?
<Regenaxer> Well, all stream functions like 'from', 'read', 'peek' etc. are not available on strings
<Regenaxer> Except, as beneroth said, with a pipe
<Regenaxer> (pipe (prinl "abc>def") (from ...
<Regenaxer> I would rather (split (chop Str) ">")
<DKordic> What kind of Lisp is that?! Especialy if it's minimal.
<Regenaxer> DKordic, it is no Lisp but a funny file format
<Regenaxer> tankfeeder, is 'read' a good idea here? It 'intern's the symbols
<Regenaxer> If so, you could really try 'str'
<Regenaxer> split into tokens
<Regenaxer> ">" being one of them
<tankfeeder> its ok as draft
<Regenaxer> (str "abc>def&12" "")
<Regenaxer> -> (abc ">" def "&" 12)
<tankfeeder> no, i use files here
<Regenaxer> ok, that's better
<DKordic> Regenaxer: I mean "Strings" are more fundamental than Files. Second, for example, `in' is Imperative more than Functional.
<Regenaxer> arguably
<Regenaxer> DKordic, stop with your "minimal" stuff
<Regenaxer> Pil is *NOT* minimalistic
<Regenaxer> it is SIMPLE
<Regenaxer> Which is different
<beneroth> minimal in concepts vs. minimal effort to use. picolisp tries both but tends to care more about "minimal practicable way" than about "minimal in spirit"
<beneroth> maybe one could optimize the "minimal in concepts" side a bit without any losses on the "practicable" side. if someone has an idea for that, make a proof-of-concept, I'm sure Regenaxer is happy to seriously consider it :)
<beneroth> but the "simple for practicable real-world usages" is holy I understand.
<Regenaxer> I was never much interested in any non-practical aspecws
<Regenaxer> aspects
<beneroth> yeah. you are very radical about it, in a good sense of the word. much more radical than all those big visions to enhance productivity.
<Regenaxer> thanks :)
<beneroth> I can understand the attraction of nice internally-consistent minimalistic models, but often they require some compromise for real-world applications (that is why e.g. all this physic models have numerous exceptions / special rules, right?)
<beneroth> but such approach quickly ends up being nothing more than mental masturbation
<Regenaxer> true
<beneroth> "Another problem with MM is nobody seems to want to do it in private" :P
<Regenaxer> :)
<beneroth> no harm intended DKordic, I'm just commenting
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<tankfeeder> done
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<joebo> morning!
<joebo> the channel log is quite nice
<beneroth> tankfeeder, nice!
<Regenaxer> Good morning joebo!
<joebo> Hi Regenaxer !
<beneroth> hey joebo :)
<joebo> hey beneroth !
<beneroth> tankfeeder, cool! yeah the FASTA format is apparently used in biology to build and exchange large corpuses of data in string form.
<Regenaxer> I wonder why not a simple CSV
<beneroth> overhead of the separator char, maybe?
<Regenaxer> But > plus a newline are more than a simple TAB
<Regenaxer> (I prefer TAB-separated CSV)
<beneroth> maybe just a legacy / historic reason, not really technical one. one or a few standard software vendors started it that way and it stuck
<Regenaxer> yeah, or perhaps more human-readable this way for such long strings
<Regenaxer> Cool, just discovered the 'socat' command line tool
<Regenaxer> seems useful
<Regenaxer> eg. with 'pipe'
<beneroth> " in the early 90s, there were many formats for sequence data. Pretty much every sequence analysis suite and public database had its own distinct format. The vast majority of these were designed for human readability first and computer parsing second,"
<tankfeeder> i've discovered ack
<tankfeeder> commited
<beneroth> thx!
<beneroth> tankfeeder, thanks for ack, bookmarked
<Regenaxer> tankfeeder, great! However, I would think the 'pack' is not needed
<Regenaxer> as 'prinl' takes care of it
<tankfeeder> indeed
<Regenaxer> and even 'make' and 'link'
<Regenaxer> Just 'prin', and (prinl) in the end?
<Regenaxer> Only for this example
<Regenaxer> in real world the data would be used, so pack and make are fine
<Regenaxer> Perhaps better keep it?
<tankfeeder> testing
<tankfeeder> works
<Regenaxer> great
<tankfeeder> i will change
<Regenaxer> ok
<tankfeeder> sweet
<Regenaxer> cool!
<Regenaxer> Looks interesting
<Regenaxer> With 'socat' this frequent issue of listening on other interfaces might be solved
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<beneroth> Regenaxer, didn't know about socat. what typical use cases do you see in picolisp context ?
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<Regenaxer> Things like e (exec "socat" "-" "OPENSSL:...
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<Regenaxer> or INTERFACE
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<Regenaxer> It has millions of options
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<beneroth> oh so it could be used to easily open a TLS connection?
<beneroth> could it be used to mitigate the 500 process IPC limit? (there are other workarounds...but yeah)
<Regenaxer> I think it has nothing to do with the process limit
<Regenaxer> worse, it creates a new process
<Regenaxer> I want to use it for POP3 over SL
<Regenaxer> SSL
<Regenaxer> bin/ssl does not help here, as it uses GET
<Regenaxer> socat can be used beyond curl, as it is bi-directional
<Regenaxer> (setq *Pop3 (pipe (exec "socat" "-" "OPENSSL:pop3.strato.de:995")))
<Regenaxer> Then read/write on that socket
<beneroth> ok, so for TLS
<beneroth> like "openssl s_client", though this is apparently meant as debugging tool and not for productive use
<Regenaxer> openssl would also work
<Regenaxer> but socat is extremely general it seems
<Regenaxer> Virtually any kind of I/O channel
<Regenaxer> The manpage is terrifying
<C-Keen> socat is just fine for tunneling
<Regenaxer> yeah, should be
<C-Keen> and the man page is not as terrifying as openssl's
<Regenaxer> haha, ok :)
<C-Keen> another idea would be using stunnel
<Regenaxer> I always use ssh app@domain.de -L 55555:127.0.0.1:80 -N
<C-Keen> or use ssh as a SOCKS proxy
<Regenaxer> T
<C-Keen> the downside with this is that it is hard to catch a connection error in code and react appropriately
<mickiebyrd> Howdy all
<beneroth> howdy mickiebyrd
<Regenaxer> Hi mickiebyrd
<mickiebyrd> Is "(diff SomeList NIL)" the best way to remove all NILs from SomeList?
<Regenaxer> I would use filter
<Regenaxer> (filter bool Lst)
<beneroth> Regenaxer, you never used CC or Reply-To with (mail) right? I intend to use it, I figure for the moment I just make an customized copy of (mail). better idea (without doing a proper SMTP implementation) ?
<mickiebyrd> Ah ok, thanks.
<beneroth> yeah filter is better
<Regenaxer> There is no CC in SMTP
<beneroth> oh ah
<Regenaxer> I always send in a loop
<beneroth> :D
<beneroth> but there is Reply-To header in email :P
<Regenaxer> (prinl "To: " (or (fin To) (glue "," To)) "^M")
<beneroth> mickiebyrd, note for (diff) the ordering matters, the second lists gets removed from the first one
<Regenaxer> ah, did not check Reply-To
<Regenaxer> or, did not use I think
<beneroth> Regenaxer, my use case: Emails sent by user from application, sent by app with a noreply@app, but I want to set the Reply-To to the email who issued the message.
<mickiebyrd> Regenaxer: Thanks, filter is quite nice
<beneroth> I don't want to use the users email as sender because of spam protections which might catch this mail then
<Regenaxer> hmm, I see
<mickiebyrd> beneroth: thanks for the tip
<beneroth> mickiebyrd, you're warmly welcome :)
<Regenaxer> beneroth, perhaps 'patch' the mail function?
<Regenaxer> I send sometimes mails to hundreds of recipients (in BTG) though
<Regenaxer> no probs so far
<beneroth> yeah. its an additional feature, not a problem with the normal usage
<beneroth> ah well with sender email to you use? I guess a system email account? :)
<beneroth> my use case is: email is sent from the application, but receivers should be able to respond to the user, not the application email address
<Regenaxer> ok, understand
<beneroth> using the users email as sender email could cause problem, as user emails are from other domains, and if those domains happened to be protected by SPF - declaring which servers are allowed to send emails in their domain name - spam filters catch it if the application is not in the SPF :)
<Regenaxer> right, I'm aware of that
<beneroth> nicest way would probably be extend (mail) so it can handle a cons pair as 'from argument, e.g. ("from" . "reply-to") vs just "from"
<beneroth> should I send you a proposal for changing (mail) ?
<Regenaxer> yes, good
<beneroth> ok. will do.
<Regenaxer> better is ("reply-to" . "from") btw
<Regenaxer> it is more in the cons philosophy
<Regenaxer> (fin From) altays gives "from" then
<beneroth> ah I wasn't aware of fin
<beneroth> perfect
<Regenaxer> no matter how much gets consed in front
<Regenaxer> It is used quite often for such situations
<beneroth> yeah I can see its merits
<beneroth> thx
<Regenaxer> bbl
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<Regenaxer> ret
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<tankfeeder> egyptian division done:
<tankfeeder> egyptian division done:https://bitbucket.org/mihailp/tankfeeder/src/default/rosetta/egyptian.l?at=default&fileviewer=file-view-default
<tankfeeder> commit tomorrow
<beneroth> pretty short :)
<rick42> hi all!
<DKordic> Hi rick42.
<rick42> you all have been busy: irc log, ack, socat. mail changes, etc. :)
<rick42> hi DKordic!
<DKordic> How are You?
<rick42> i am well! how ru?
<DKordic> Great.
<rick42> DKordic: btw, are you an org mode user?
<DKordic> I have been hacking in FOrth recently. Forth borders with sanity.
<rick42> hehehe
<rick42> i am scared of it (forth) :)
<DKordic> I use Org-mode mostly on IRC :) .
<yumaikas> Borders with sanity?
<rick42> ah ok
<DKordic> yumaikas: Yes.
<rick42> at least it's a close neighbor of sanity :D
<yumaikas> What is firmly sane then, and what is fimrly insane?
<rick42> (and is there a "strip" between them, and how exspanive is it? :)
<DKordic> I was joking. I meant it was a blast.
<rick42> i know :) | <DKordic> I was joking.
<yumaikas> DKordic: eh, I was just curious as to your opinions on the matter
<yumaikas> (Notably, why does Forth *border* with sanity?, rather than being firmly (in)sane)
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<beneroth> hi rick42 !
<beneroth> hey yumaikas :)
<yumaikas> Hello
<yumaikas> DKordic: That is to say, Forth doesn't strike me as a moderate langauge in any sense
<yumaikas> ;)
<beneroth> so Forth is radical?
<beneroth> :)
<beneroth> I guess the moderat/radical axis is different from the sanity axis
<yumaikas> beneroth: Forth is, if anything, not a middling language
<beneroth> sounds like something I would like
<beneroth> sounds like something absolutely not fitting into enterprise environment
<yumaikas> beneroth: Have you never tried forth?
<beneroth> nope
<C-Keen> Forth is a implement it yourself language.
<beneroth> it's on the ToDo-eventually-one-day-list
<C-Keen> And if it is too complicated use better suited hardware
<beneroth> C-Keen, so is lisp, not? and still .. it takes a bit to get a sane result :)
<C-Keen> beneroth: not in the low level sense of it
<beneroth> point
<yumaikas> C-Keen: Though factor/8th aren't
<yumaikas> :D
<C-Keen> yumaikas: yeah those live on their own planet
<beneroth> Regenaxer, I just had a WoW-moment looking at (or (fin To) (glue "," To)) ... it is exploiting that lists end with a NIL-cell.
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<Regenaxer> beneroth: Glad to hear :)
<beneroth> :)
<Regenaxer> yes, exactly
<Regenaxer> And it exploits the principle that an s-expr is either an atom (found with 'fin') or something else 'cons'ed in front of that atom
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<rick42> hello beneroth, Regenaxer and The Schemeing C-Keen :)
<Regenaxer> Hi rick42!
<C-Keen> hi ho rick42
<beneroth> Regenaxer, grokked
<rick42> WoW == World of Warcraft
<rick42> hehe
<rick42> Regenaxer: is fin "expensive"? car seems as if i would be "cheap" and i hope fin would be as "cheap"
<Regenaxer> Depends on the length of the list. Similar to 'last' or 'tail'
<rick42> ah
<beneroth> rick42, no, me does not like WoW. bad game. well polished.
<rick42> beneroth: :)
<beneroth> Regenaxer, so (last) is a (fin) which stops one cell earlier? :P
<rick42> the car of the last cell?
<Regenaxer> 'fin' is the CDR of the last cell, or just the atom
<rick42> right
<rick42> i mean sounds right :)
<rick42> btw, since beneroth was asking about last, i meant the last is the CAR of the last cell (or so I think)
<Regenaxer> ah, no, it is the last cell itself
<rick42> ah ok thanks
<Regenaxer> So 'last' does: While there is a CDR, anvance to it
<Regenaxer> 'fin' is: While we do not have an atom, advance to the CDR
<beneroth> aye
<beneroth> that I meant
<Regenaxer> 'fin' always returns an atom
<Regenaxer> T
<beneroth> NIL is an atom
<Regenaxer> yep
<rick42> This is why I thought that (last) evals to the car of the last cell:
<rick42> : (fin (1 . (2 . 3)))
<rick42> -> 3
<rick42> : (last (1 . (2 . 3)))
<rick42> -> 2
<Regenaxer> Sorry! Last element!
<rick42> :)
<Regenaxer> Not often used ;)
<Regenaxer> (car (tail 1 Lst)) should be the same as (last Lst)
<rick42> tail: neat function!
<rick42> so, here's the announcement about the latest release of OpenBSD (6.2):
<rick42> in particular, note that it says:
<rick42> "The base system compiler on the amd64 and i386 platforms has switched to clang(1)."
<rick42> that means the anyone starting with a fresh install of OpenBSD >= v6.2 is probably
<rick42> going to need to install gcc from packages to build picolisp. heh
<rick42> clang hates picolisp, right Regenaxer? :D
<yumaikas> Why?
<rick42> clang won't support some functionality of picolisp. i don't recall which atm
* yumaikas guesses at labeled jumps
<beneroth> Regenaxer, https://pastebin.com/48PQ0qSJ
<beneroth> tested both with & without Reply-To header
<beneroth> 3 lines edited, 2 added
<rick42> yumaikas: make with clang yields this error
<rick42> will never be supported
<rick42> main.c:730:34: error: fields must have a constant size: 'variable length array in structure' extension
<rick42> ^^ Regenaxer , this
<beneroth> yep
<beneroth> dynamic array sizes
<rick42> T
<beneroth> though this is only a problem for pil32, no? pil64 should compile on OpenBSD when you added the .s files
<rick42> Yes!
<rick42> i amend the previous: "clang hates pil32" hehehehe
<rick42> clang is a "hater"
<tankfeeder> pil64 doesnt work openbsd
<tankfeeder> dont remember details
<beneroth> I only remember that there are some catches on openBSD with sockets, as they separate ipv4 and ipv6 sockets.
<beneroth> rick42, interesting, variable length arrays (VLA) are completely valid C99 standard C, but never existed in C++
<beneroth> stackoverflow.com/questions/1887097/why-arent-variable-length-arrays-part-of-the-c-standard
<rick42> tankfeeder: it must (at least) partially work, because i'm using it now on openbsd (snapshot) amd64
<beneroth> apparently, VM programming and memory-saving is a field of use which mostly or completely got overlooked in these considerations.
<rick42> beneroth: *very* interesting. i wonder why clang says "we will NEVER(!!) support it!" :)
<beneroth> because it is an easily misused feature (as some others in C and many much in C++)
<beneroth> and I don't know if clang is more about C or C++
<beneroth> so this would also be a upper RAM usage limit on pil32
<beneroth> if I understand correctly
<beneroth> but it is very big :)
<beneroth> 16 Exabyte
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