ChanServ changed the topic of #picolisp to: PicoLisp language | Channel Log: https://irclog.whitequark.org/picolisp/ | Picolisp latest found at http://www.software-lab.de/down.html | check also http://www.picolisp.com for more information
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<clacke[m]> a lightweight won't
<clacke[m]> like electrum
<clacke[m]> a full node with pruning won't
<clacke[m]> it will download the abuse picture, validate the block, then discard it at some point
<clacke[m]> maybe younwant to scrub your disk at that point to avoid all possession
<clacke[m]> the thing that annoyed me with that report was the omg gasp there were links in there
<clacke[m]> to the DARK bet
<clacke[m]> net*
<clacke[m]> makes me wonder if there are any real pictures in there
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<beneroth> Good morning all
<beneroth> clacke[m], thanks for the clarification. Yeah, the links are meaningless I would say.
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<trui> hellos
<Regenaxer> Hi trui
<trui> I'm trying to convert the symbol name returned by a call to new tim (rel tim (+Time)) to a number but I have no idea how or if it's possible
<Regenaxer> I think you do not want to call (new '(+Time)) explicitly
<Regenaxer> Rather call (time) and then 'put!>' that value
<Regenaxer> (time) returns a number
<Regenaxer> The class '+Time' is a relation class, not a time value
<trui> yeah.. I'm new to this, especially classes. and oops, seems new time doesn't include milliseconds. for some reason when looking at it I thought it did
<Regenaxer> no problem :)
<Regenaxer> You can call (usec) to get microseconds
<trui> aha, thanks for the help
<Regenaxer> : (list (date) (time T) (usec T))
<Regenaxer> -> (737080 29613 662478)
<trui> I'm coming from scheme so picolisp has been neat but a bit confusing haha.
<Regenaxer> Yes, understandable. It looks similar but is a lot different under the hood
<trui> I checked it out after finding out that it was a termux package. lol
<trui> *available as
<Regenaxer> Yeah, I'm here on Termux actually
<Regenaxer> on a tablet
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<trui> I'm browsing the reference again and oops, I guess I shouldn't have glanced over the usec link next to time.
<Regenaxer> :)
<beneroth> welcome trui :)
<trui> thanks
<trui> okay, time for bed. *waves*
<cess11_> Good morning.
<Regenaxer> Sleep well trui :)
<Regenaxer> He cess11_!
<beneroth> hi cess11_
<trui> thanks :)
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<m_mans> hi all
<Regenaxer> Hi m_mans!
<m_mans> Regenaxer: how are you?
<Regenaxer> Thanks, fine! :)
<Regenaxer> Getting spring in Siberia?
<m_mans> yes, slowly. We've got huge amount of snow last month
<Regenaxer> Here it is unusually cold for March
<Regenaxer> Air coming from your area ;)
<m_mans> probably ;)
<m_mans> I'm going to return to previous job
<Regenaxer> Wow! PicoLisp again??
<m_mans> no, Python and Golang I suppose
<m_mans> I mean previous place
<Regenaxer> :(
<m_mans> I think I need to try to push Picolisp there. Against Java hype
<Regenaxer> yess
<m_mans> also I need to sum up my previous experience and write to ML
<m_mans> what I missed during development in PicoLisp
<Regenaxer> Great, that would be nice
<beneroth> hi m_mans
<m_mans> hi beneroth
<beneroth> yeah I would would appreciate a write-up :) good luck anyway, I hope all turns out well for you
<m_mans> thanks beneroth :)
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<aw-> Regenaxer: i followed your suggestion and escaped _all_ control characters now
<Regenaxer> ok
<aw-> as well as " and \
<Regenaxer> yeah
<aw-> btw, it snowed today in Kamakura
<aw-> all day
<Regenaxer> Not usual I suppose
<Regenaxer> In Sapporo it is quite normal thoug
<aw-> no!
<aw-> haha
<Regenaxer> but that's another 600 km or so
<aw-> last time it snowed was in January, also just one day
<Regenaxer> Same here. Snow 3 days ago, now fine but still below zero
<Regenaxer> Before we had only I day snow this Winter, in Dec iirc
<Regenaxer> Now it is colder than whole January
<aw-> strange
<Regenaxer> yes, but not new for central Europe
<Regenaxer> The January was by far to warm for the long-term average
<Regenaxer> *too
<aw-> what's the warmest there in summer?
<Regenaxer> Max was around 39 C
<Regenaxer> Typical is 25 - 30
<Regenaxer> But much more dry than in Honshu
<Regenaxer> Here is quite similar to Sapporo, just not so extreme (a little warmer in winter and a little cooler in summer)
<aw-> wow hot
<aw-> i've never been to Sapporo, hard for me to compare
<aw-> i want to go in summer, seems nice
<Regenaxer> Yes, I like Sapporo. Honshu is a bit too humid for me
<aw-> indeed, it's nice by the beach though, not humid
<Regenaxer> Beach is always good :) It is the city which is hard to stand
<aw-> yes i generally avoid it during July-August months
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<trui> how to quit the interpreter? (quit) isn't working. hmm...
<trui> oh. ctrl d. there we go
<beneroth> (bye)
<cess11_> Also Ctrl+C to stop evaluation and throw debug prompt.
<tankf33der> trui: do you already write code?
<tankf33der> if no task create one
<trui> ah, bye. I got confused because quit worked earlier when I opened pico with picolisp
<trui> define write code
<trui> I've done project euler stuff and other randomness but I haven't done any of the projects I'd want to do yet, like make an editor, interpreter or synth
<tankf33der> uh
<tankf33der> do you have a repo?
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<trui> not yet. I will make one once I've learned a bit more and settled on a project. but for now I'm just doing this all for fun
<trui> well, even when I make one I'll be doing it for fun
<trui> really I should (and likely will) stick to my scheme followed by C learning path but picolisp piqued my interest
<trui> I'm not a complete beginner--ive dabbled over the years-- but now I'm planning on sticking with a couple languages and learning them really well
<trui> first one being scheme because I love using it and why not? second being C/C++ because they're useful for what I want to do and I can use them with scheme and other languages
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<cess11_> C/C++ are quite demanding unless you're doing trivial stuff or using some higher level language to keep track of types and GC, especially compared to extremes like Scheme and pil. Glance at stuff like Rust for those things, it might save a lot time.
<trui> I guess? I don't know. I'd like to make my own linux distro as a learning experience, do stuff like making editors/whatnot, plus simply have an idea of why things break and how to fix them when making stuff I download
<trui> and it feels like I'm suggested to learn this language and that, java, C#, rust, whatever, but I just think really knowing C and having a good handle on C++ would be useful
<trui> part of it is I'm tired of being suggested to learn 20+ languages and so C/C++ are tempting because I know they'll be useful
<trui> like how good are the resources for building a virtual synthesizer in rust?
<trui> quick google search gives, not nearly as good as C++
<trui> you can make games in java but you can also make them in C++
<trui> so while I know C++ is hard, it just seems so useful for all of the things I want to do
* trui shrugs
<trui> I'm learning scheme for similar yet different reasons. sure it's unpopular yet I love using it and instead of dabbling in python, perl, whatever, I want to learn a language like the back of my hand that I'll like using in ten years when people's recommendations on what language to learn change
<trui> not like I can't learn some python afterwards but first I want to know scheme really well
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<cess11_> Scheme and C are small. C++ is enormous and practical C++ extremely abstract and makes heavy use of a templating system to reduce boilerplate.
<cess11_> I'm no fan of Rust but it is an industry strength systems programming language that allows pointers as well as decent safety in the built-ins, including threads.
<cess11_> So yes, you can use it for audio and other kinds of high performance programming.
<trui> i gtg so we'll have to talk later
<cess11_> If I were to do something like that I would use CL or Clojure, unless some lib and 'native would be enough.
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<cess11_> Clj due to some lib I've forgotten the name of that is quite nice for multimedia stuff and music.
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<trui> cess11_ so you're saying that rust will teach me how to make C/C++ programs from source and know how to fix any problems that come about, has a fully developed vst building community with associated libraries and so forth, would let me follow a tutorial to build my own operating system and I'll never want another low level language except for rust?
<trui> and there's no big things that I might really want C++ for?
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<beneroth> trui, Rust is C++ with safety features.
<beneroth> C is basically a better understandable assembler language. And the style father for most programming languages.
<beneroth> C++ is C plus many many extensions, and frankly kinda a mess. nobody really programs in C++, everyone doing C++ is usually programming in a subset of C++, because the language is so vast.
<beneroth> I learned programming with C/C++. was many years a strong fanboi of C++. later learned picolisp as my first lisp language.
<beneroth> for the learning experience and to understand the fundamentals / inner workings of nearly all other programming languages (including picolisp), I recommend you to learn C.
<beneroth> it is also quite usable for smaller projects, when one needs tight control over the hardware. for bigger projects it gets hard to organise the C code well, it's likely to become blown up and hard to overview.
<beneroth> C++: learn it if you like the learning part. if you want do something bigger, better use another language. C++ is not a language to give you quick results.
<beneroth> I think I benefited a lot from initially learning C++ including the more complex stuff like templates, as the other mainstream languages (especially Java, C#) consist of many "easier made / less powerful" C++ features. understanding the C++ variants of some constructs helped me a lot grokking Java/C# features, as with the understanding from C++ I'm able to understand the inner workings of these languages.
<beneroth> but there are probably easier paths to that level of understanding. and for getting results (software which produces some output you want) this knowledge is not needed.
<beneroth> staying within one language makes some stuff easier and reduces dependencies. but often the wise thing to do is to use each language for the things it is best at (= in which it is the easiest to do X), and then somehow connect those parts of your software in different languages together.
<trui> [16:52] (beneroth) C++ is C plus many many extensions, and frankly kinda a mess. nobody really programs in C++, everyone doing C++ is usually programming in a subset of C++, because the language is so vast.
<trui> so which one is it? do people use it or not? but still, fair enough for the last point
<trui> and I am planning on learning C at least no matter what people say
<beneroth> they use it. but usually a team of C++ developers has some rules about which language features to use / which not / or when. etc.
<beneroth> its not well-defined subsets usually.
<beneroth> e.g. Googles style guide for C++ (a "little" document): https://google.github.io/styleguide/cppguide.html
<beneroth> of course such style guides are common for other languages too. but I would argue that they are pretty required for C++ ;)
<trui> I'm just tired of learning everyone's pet syntax. I like scheme because it's logical and unified but if I'm going to learn something else, I'd rather learn C/C++ because literally everything seems to be written in C or C++ or some scripting language
<beneroth> T
<beneroth> (picolisp slang for "true" and/or "I agree")
<trui> hehe, I know T. ;)
<trui> but cute
<trui> and again, from what I read, the resources for making a vst with rust for example are just not there
<trui> like, you can do it I'm sure but I'd rather have access to the resources of C++
<trui> this tinyscheme extension is written in C. sure I don't neeed to know C to make it but I'd like to
<trui> etc etc
<trui> and I want to learn how to make my own version of linux to better learn how linux and computers work. :P
<trui> which to be fair would be done in C not C++
<trui> but still. while C and C++ are different languages, learning C would help with learning C++
<trui> if I'm going to make something in something with little libraries for it I'd rather use scheme because I'd find it more fun
<trui> and you know what would really help in that process? being able to use C/C++ libraries
<trui> yes there's clojure but that means at least being familiar with java and that's yet another language
<trui> so that's why I'm so hesitant to listen to people's recommendations to learn rust or C# or whatever as a second language
<trui> maybe it's silly but I like the idea of learning C and at least getting familiar with the parts of C++ that I'd want to use. even if only for the peace of mind of knowing that I'm learning something that will be around for a while, and even if it isn't, there's a ton of stuff written in what might as well be called the C++ family
<trui> I have a really difficult time getting motivated for learning something when people can't agree on whether I should learn it or not
<trui> which is part of what stopped me from learning C/C++ or any language in depth for years
<trui> because I always felt I was making the wrong decision
<trui> C at least seems like a safe decision. so I'll definitely be learning that. I'm tempted to learn some now even though people said that I should learn more scheme first
<trui> but the r5rs standard is only so big and I want access to C libraries. and sooner or later I'll want access to C++ libraries
<trui> so yeah. I don't know
<trui> I'm a relative beginner. I've never learned a language in depth. so what do I know? but I'm tired of all this choice
<beneroth> just decide something and stick a while with it ;)
<beneroth> many FOSS projects purposely use only C to keep the overly "clever" bad programmers away
<beneroth> C/C++ programs (or even just parts of it) can easily be used with picolisp. how is this with scheme?
<trui> similar. which is yet another reason I want to learn it. yet apparently I should learn rust instead. *grumbles*
<trui> every time I decide to learn C/C++ people say that the former is pointless and the latter is a bad idea so I always get disheartened. yes I let people's opinions influence me too much
<trui> and then they suggest 10 different languages and I end up learning none of them
<beneroth> C is pointless? haha, I would disagree
<beneroth> yeah just decide something and stick with it for a while. try it out. if you really don't like it, you will feel it and stop. else you can advance until you have enough understanding yourself to judge what is good and what is bad about the language.
<trui> "oh, you should learn java instead". also, keep in mind I'm not doing this for a career. I just want to learn stuff and make some things and better understand the software I use and install
<beneroth> yep intentions matter much!
<trui> I mean, I learned some C as a kid. I loved it but got confused about pointers and stopped. I tried C++ and got even more confused lol. but even so, I was just a kid then. and they're familiar and I'm tired of them being unintelligible to me
<beneroth> if you learn for understanding, then I think learning C is a very good way to also get an understanding of the inner workings of other languages. most programming languages were initially written in C or C++.
<beneroth> the pointers don't go away. they are still there in other languages, just hidden behind a nice looking curtain.
<beneroth> understanding them helps a lot for understanding why other languages behave the way they do.
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<trui> yeah. and maybe I'm crazy, but I feel like understanding interpreter stuff and the environment in scheme will make my second go at pointers easier
<trui> but even if it doesn't, I can handle them now I think
<beneroth> one goal of Rust is to replace C++. so this might be an additional reason to recommend Rust instead of C++. though the many many existing C++ code will not go away in any foreseeable future.
<trui> are the people working on C++ also working on rust or is this just a pipe dream?
<trui> of the rust people
<trui> I can think of a few languages that wanted to replace C++
<beneroth> as far as I know: rust people. C++ work on C++. though probably most/all of the rust people were C++ people before.
<beneroth> so wanted the language D. it got largely ignored afaik.
<trui> really, any similar "low level" (well z you know what I mean) language probably wants to replace C++
<trui> java seems to be the most successful from what I've heard but it has or at least had problems
<beneroth> I don't know enough rust to say which disadvantages (if any) it has over C++. it's very easy to make very bad mistakes in C++, Rust is (another) attempt to make this less problematic.
<beneroth> java was more the attempt to make all software based on a middle layer (the java runtime/interpreter), and then earn money by controlling that middle layer everyone depends on. didn't turn out exactly that way (though partly it did/does).
<beneroth> one can write nice looking C++ and stay away from the dangerous traps by following some rules and be disciplined. the language made also many and big improvements for that in recent years.
<beneroth> this dangerous parts can easier be avoided in C++ than in C. in C its mostly not possible at all.
<beneroth> C is not a big language. that makes it easier to understand the whole language and to search for mistakes in C code.
<beneroth> C++ code can be written in ways that it is very hard to tell what a certain piece of the code is actually doing.
<beneroth> C is very low level. only assembler is lower. C++ is on C level and/or higher, depending on how/what you program. java/c# are higher level than C/C++ in terms of "hardware-distance" (compiling to a bytecode language executed in a runtime), tough they maybe can be viewed as lower level than C++ because C++ allows for higher/more powerful abstractions.
<beneroth> some powers got removed in java/c# because the dangers coming with them are high
* trui nods
<trui> but yeah. thanks for the help and boost of confidence. I'll definitely be starting with C
<beneroth> the goal of java/c# is mainly to have a guaranteed lower limit of developer output even with low skilled developers. good for enterprise businesses, then they 1) aren't much dependent on the programmers and 2) have less problems finding enough people for developer jobs.
<trui> so we'll see how it goes
<beneroth> ok. have fun :) I hope you find a good book/tutorial/mentor/whatever :)
<beneroth> sure thing
<beneroth> and you can ask C questions here too xD
<trui> thanks. I gotta catch the bus but I'll be back later
<beneroth> have a good drive
<beneroth> I might still be around when you are back, but maybe I'm already gone sleeping.
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<trui2> well, I missed the bus. time to browse the library for books on C while I wait for a ride
<anjaa> trui2: good choice
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<trui3> silly internet
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