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<cilz>
good morning
<Regenaxer>
Hi cilz
<cilz>
;-)
<Regenaxer>
Did you make some progress with Pil? ;)
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<beneroth>
Good morning all
<Regenaxer>
Hi beneroth
<Regenaxer>
Flu is getting better?
<beneroth>
yeah! I'm feeling well again :)
<aw->
hi beneroth
<aw->
hi Regenaxer
<Regenaxer>
beneroth, good :)
<Regenaxer>
Hi aw-
<beneroth>
hi aw-
<beneroth>
Regenaxer, ja so ist viel besser :)
<Regenaxer>
:)
<beneroth>
oh Stephen Hawking died
<Regenaxer>
yeah
<Regenaxer>
I miracle he survived so long
<Regenaxer>
mental strength
<beneroth>
yes. and caring relatives. apparently he was not very nice to them.
<Regenaxer>
Understandable. Must be very hard to keep good mood with such a life
<beneroth>
T
<beneroth>
I guess a strong will to live, to create stuff, can make a lot of a difference.
<beneroth>
no receipt, but likely a factor.
<Regenaxer>
yes
<cilz>
Regenaxer, work is in progress ;-) I'm reading and practicing, practicing and reading to understand how things work in Pil
<Regenaxer>
Good :)
<Regenaxer>
Don't hesitate to ask
<cilz>
thanks :)
<cess11>
Good morning.
<Regenaxer>
Hi cess11
<aw->
white day in Japan
<aw->
so ridiculous
<beneroth>
what is this?
<aw->
valentine's day in Japan is uni-directional: women -> men
<aw->
so white day, March 14, is in the opposite direction: men -> women
<cess11>
Vaguely remember that from Fruits Basket.
<cess11>
Some anime, quite funny.
<aw->
haven't seen it
<beneroth>
oh interesting
<aw->
seems like a marketing tactic
<beneroth>
was this in Japan also invented by the flower industry, or goes it back to some actual older cultural roots?
<aw->
now you get TWO days a year where people buy flowers and chocolate and useless junk to "show their love"
<beneroth>
consum consum is the law
<aw->
beneroth: i'm 99% certain it's marketing consumerist crap
<aw->
wasn't there someone else in here who watches anime? beneroth?
<aw->
or maybe freemint_ ...
<beneroth>
probably me, dunno. from time to time I watch some, but I'm not a regular consumer.
<beneroth>
I like the art form. I originally wanted to become a comic artist before I ended up in IT.
<aw->
wow cool
<aw->
that's quite a different direction
<beneroth>
I grew up with the first wave of anime into Europe
<beneroth>
well I was on the way to becoming a graphic designer, which means in Switzerland 1 year art/design school and then an apprenticeship. I didn't found a apprenticeship (there were only very few available) so I switched to IT.
<beneroth>
for me personally I see quite some parallels between software design/creativity and graphic design / drawing / art. but yeah, the look and reputation is different :)
<aw->
interesting
<aw->
yeah Paul Graham wrote about that in his book
<aw->
aptly titled "Hackers and Painters"
<aw->
but i find for art, you need talent to produce something good.. you can't just grab a book and "learn" it, unlike most of IT there's definitely some design sense required, but most of it can be learned through reading and practice. I could have spent 20 years trying to draw a face, and it would still look like a disgusting pizza
<beneroth>
well.. did you have mentor? :P
<aw->
oh yeah, my mentor told me to stick to computers
<aw->
;)
<beneroth>
first thing we got told in Zurich art school was: you all can draw (we had to pass multiple layered exam to get into the class), now we teach you to accurately see
<beneroth>
the trick is to draw what you see, not what you want it to look like ;)
<aw->
interesting
<aw->
yeah.. i have no patience for that
<beneroth>
yeah I was just about to write that I feel that drawing/painting needs more patience than programming.
<aw->
i think it requires a certain personality type as well
<beneroth>
haha funny you said it first
<beneroth>
well, similar with IT, no? nerd/freak cliché and all
<aw->
no
<aw->
i don't fit the nerd/freak cliche
<aw->
ok i have some work to finish
<aw->
bbl
<beneroth>
see ya
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<clacke[m]>
wow Hawking
<clacke[m]>
btw, beneroth it's "recipe" not "receipt"
<beneroth>
right. thanks!
<clacke[m]>
repice is a description of an algorithm in the kitchen, a receipt is a Kassenbon
<beneroth>
here it is rezept and quittung.
<clacke[m]>
was just going to ask
<clacke[m]>
Swedish is recept and kvitto
<beneroth>
interesting. so swiss german and swedish is closer on that than german
<clacke[m]>
is Quittung common in the south?
<clacke[m]>
I saw it occasionally, but not often, in NRW
<clacke[m]>
in this case apparently yes
<clacke[m]>
I'm getting a bit of a deja vu here
<beneroth>
you think they changed something in the Matrix?
<clacke[m]>
have I mentioned my ex's work on foreign accents in German?
<beneroth>
no? :O
<clacke[m]>
she wrote her thesis on foreign accents, if Germans can distinguish them, and how they perceive a person speaking with an accent
<clacke[m]>
hehe
<clacke[m]>
if Germans cannot guess that a Swedish person is Swedish, they will guess that they are Swiss
<clacke[m]>
Swiss German is more sing-song than north German I guess
<clacke[m]>
and Bavarian they know too well to mix up
<beneroth>
sounds about right. though there are many different swiss german accents.
<clacke[m]>
I didn't read the full thesis, she just mentioned this bit to me
<beneroth>
if you know them well, you can tell from which village someone comes. everybody can tell from which part of switzerland a speaker comes.
<clacke[m]>
of course.
<clacke[m]>
that's funny, British people often say to Americans "there is no 'British' accent", but on the latest HPR Community news, the guy with the Scottish accent and the guy with the Irish accent said someone had "kept his British accent" after living a decade in the States :-)
<beneroth>
:D
<clacke[m]>
of course that could mean "his accent, which is one of the British ones"
<beneroth>
afaik the American English is the old common British English, while the current British English is the old British nobility accent
<clacke[m]>
I can distinguish maybe on the order of ten flavors of Swedish
<beneroth>
wow
<beneroth>
all compatible?
<clacke[m]>
I can hear when someone speaks non-HK Cantonese, but when I ask my go-to local for help to localize it further, she almost always goes "ugh, just some country dialect" :-D
<beneroth>
hehe
<clacke[m]>
She can tell if it's GZ Canto, but otherwise she just isn't very interested
<clacke[m]>
the Swedishes?
<clacke[m]>
yeah it's all just intonation, consonant and vowel color, and maybe a few dialectal words
<beneroth>
aye
<beneroth>
ok
<clacke[m]>
there are very few Swedes my generation that ever speak so strong an accent that not all Swedes understand them
<beneroth>
it's slowly vanishing, but we still have a good number of local/dialectal words in Switzerland.
<clacke[m]>
Ystad is difficult, but otherwise I think I understand most southern Swedes without any issues :-)
<beneroth>
Wallis german (mountain canton in the south), which is basically "highest alemannic" is mostly not understandable for other swiss german speakers. they didn't get the memo about vowel changes in their isolated valley.
<clacke[m]>
I think Finland Swedish is probably the easiest for learners to understand. It's very articulate and closer to the written language.
<clacke[m]>
:-D
<clacke[m]>
these mountains. impenetrable to memos.
<clacke[m]>
I've been thinking. I wonder if PiL would fit in with a mes / stage0 chain
<clacke[m]>
do you need C to build PiL or is it all asm?
<beneroth>
you need pil to buil pil
<clacke[m]>
stage0 starts from less than a few hundred bytes of understandable hex, then builds a forth, then builds a slow lisp, then another lisp
<clacke[m]>
aha ok
<Regenaxer>
"you need pil to buil pil" plus assembler and linker
<Regenaxer>
pil can be bootstrapped from C or Java
<Regenaxer>
(unless one starts with pre-built *.s files)
<Regenaxer>
So these *.s files could be written by hand to start with them ;)
<clacke[m]>
ok so the PiL bit compiles from some sexprs to asm that could be said to be semi-human-readable?
<clacke[m]>
now Im curious how Nix builds PiL
<clacke[m]>
will look later
<beneroth>
I find the pil asm pretty readable. also thanks to being well commented :)
<beneroth>
without having learned the asm yet
<Regenaxer>
It is not exactly sexprs, at least not functional
<Regenaxer>
it is a quite "normal" assembly language, aka "Mix" for Pil
<beneroth>
T. its more like simple lists with sexpr indentation, yes?
<Regenaxer>
not even lists, just a stream of atoms
<Regenaxer>
A list starts a new section
<Regenaxer>
(code 'foo 2)
<clacke[m]>
but that's the handwritten part not the PiL'ed part, right? ( with comments )
<clacke[m]>
Mix is Knuth's VM asm, right?
<Regenaxer>
Until the next list is asm code
<Regenaxer>
yes, Knuth
<Regenaxer>
Pil has its own VM, documented in doc64/asm
<clacke[m]>
I'm digging around in Racket these days and it has an interesting low-level sexpr form in the bootstrap
<clacke[m]>
generated from human-readable racket subset
<Regenaxer>
The Pil VM has 8 physical registers plus three status bits
<Regenaxer>
10 logical registers, as there is also B and D
<clacke[m]>
aha, haven't dived into the document, just read some specific parts pointed out in some discussion
<clacke[m]>
I have been assuming it was more of an AST walker than a VM, and more Forth-like than register-based
<clacke[m]>
now I'm curious to read up, thanks :-)
<Regenaxer>
I think it is very simple
<clacke[m]>
well, you would ;-)
<Regenaxer>
true
<clacke[m]>
the aim of Fractalide is to build flow-based programming components across languages. would be cool to implement a PiL runtime. Currently have Rust and will have Racket and Idris.
<Regenaxer>
Will you try?
<clacke[m]>
but that would be next year at the earliest, need to get the existing parts productive first :
<clacke[m]>
I hope I can make myself try, could be fun
<Regenaxer>
wuff HyperCard
<clacke[m]>
Fractalide is the project I'm working on for my client
<clacke[m]>
aha, enticed you to have a look!
<Regenaxer>
ah
<clacke[m]>
yeah, we're making a HyperCard-ish frontend, to drive a FBP backend
<clacke[m]>
a version of the backend fornrust exists already, so now I'm working on racket2nix and sjmbis working on the frontend/IDE in Racket
<Regenaxer>
Good old Mac-II HyperCard?
<clacke[m]>
inspired by it, yes
<clacke[m]>
the long-lost era of a form of non-programmer programming that actually worked
<Regenaxer>
nice
<Regenaxer>
There was a lot of excitement back then. I only used it a little, never programmed it
<clacke[m]>
every 4GL and stuff like that has been a failure, but Excel and HyperCard are the things that have allowed people to program while barely knowing they were programming
<clacke[m]>
remains to be seennif the marriage between HC and FBP works as a model for people to be productive in
<clacke[m]>
and also if it ends itself as well to cryptocurrencies as sjm hopes
<clacke[m]>
lends*
<Regenaxer>
Smart Contract Cards ;)
<clacke[m]>
but regardless of the cryptocurrency angle, I think it would be useful for all kinds of things
<clacke[m]>
just semi-stateless network services in general seem to me a good fit
<clacke[m]>
yeah!
<clacke[m]>
I want to make ActivityPub servers, Secure-Scuttlebutt servers and other cool things that I care about, and try to marry them to this project
<clacke[m]>
ok, now I need to herd my son toward dinner with the relatives
<clacke[m]>
good to talk to you as akways
<Regenaxer>
:)
<beneroth>
I think Smart Contracts will not be the big improvement they're claimed to be. underhand programming is a thing (looks like A, does B).
<beneroth>
clacke[m], any good introduction to HyperCard? I heard of it, but never saw it myself.
<beneroth>
T about the 4GL (I programmed in 4GL languages, e.g. Navision / MS Dynamics NAV) and Excel being the main non-programmer programming-tool
<clacke[m]>
i can look around
<clacke[m]>
but basically it is web, but designed :-)
<Regenaxer>
In some way it resembled also to Forth "screens"
<beneroth>
I don't know enough about Forth. Are those "screens" meaning something different than "screens" in early GUI/game programming?
<Regenaxer>
They are just primitive text blocks of 16 lines by 64 columns
<beneroth>
smells like "lets cover it up without fixing the issue (costs performance, brings trouble, is hard to do somewhat correctly anyway), then it has the additional benefit of being potentially usable as a backdoor"
<Regenaxer>
haha
<beneroth>
[off-topic] ASP.NET Core webframework has a privilege escalation problem caused by missing checks for host header (LOL): https://github.com/aspnet/Home/issues/2954
<beneroth>
Regenaxer, stuff like this is the probable cause for that IT department to require running the web app within VPN xD
<Regenaxer>
I don't think so. They have no ideas, just do what Microsoft tells them
<beneroth>
well arguably this appears to be reasonable with software by Microsoft
<Regenaxer>
I rather suspect that VNP is the only thing they always do
<Regenaxer>
VPN
<beneroth>
but yeah, you're of course right. they want insurance/cover leaves to hide behind.
<beneroth>
you mean like a golden hammer: we don't know much, but we can do X. Lets do X always! I mean else it would like we would not do anything...
<Regenaxer>
For a general case, eg. Laptops in the company's network, it is best
<beneroth>
s/would like/would look like
<Regenaxer>
but for a simple web gui it is overkill
<beneroth>
T
<beneroth>
also overkill for mobiles
<Regenaxer>
yes
<Regenaxer>
And I do ssl-only anyway
<beneroth>
you should use this words "same security level as eBanking!"
<beneroth>
(which is not that good actually xD)
<Regenaxer>
hehe, good
<Regenaxer>
T
<beneroth>
I used this magic words before, they work pretty well ;)
<Regenaxer>
good to know
<beneroth>
the important detail is to accept that usually in such cases the people are not really looking for technical quality or such, all they want is something they can believe to sleep well and never be afraid of being blamed in any case
<beneroth>
yeah might be handy for your. you could send it to the guys in the netherlands ;)
<beneroth>
and "it's from the IEEE! Electric engineering standards! Authority!" can be used with business people. the fact that they keep their standards secret which results in security researching not looking at their stuff resulting in funny thing like the universal WLAN crypto vulnerability should probably not be mentioned right then.
<beneroth>
also it's only their magazine and doesn't necessarily reflect the members opinions.
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<Regenaxer>
yep :)
<Regenaxer>
Did you hear something from SIM? Here it got completely silent
<beneroth>
nope nothing at all.
<Regenaxer>
So they are busy building their blockchain :D
<beneroth>
or busy making up their mind what they want.
<Regenaxer>
right
<beneroth>
well I can't see any trust issues in logistics, unless one wants to document handing-over of items between different parties = trade = we have solutions for that
<beneroth>
so no need for a blockchain
<beneroth>
in worst case you go re-counting the physical goods
<Regenaxer>
"removing the need for a trusted authority" so they make SIM obsolete
<beneroth>
haha T.
<Regenaxer>
Being a "trusted authority" is their core business
<beneroth>
or they become a software company ;)
<Regenaxer>
yeah
<beneroth>
oh ok. so their not inherently a service or infrastructure company (which I thought), but a trusted authority? häh?
<beneroth>
that you should explain to me. maybe not in this channel, dunno.
<beneroth>
I don't see the problem for this solution,
<beneroth>
.
<Regenaxer>
Their core business is to validate certificates and such things
<beneroth>
now it sounds like an insurance company to me. payed for offering business (or managers) plausible deniability?
<Regenaxer>
They investigate sources and documents to find out eg. if a banana producer in Columbia is bio
<beneroth>
ah right
<beneroth>
I forgot
<beneroth>
but yes I read the stuff
<beneroth>
right!
<Regenaxer>
Seems more like journalistic or criminalistic work to me
<beneroth>
hm T, a public blockchain might make sense in that case actually - but it would also automate their business away and reduce them to a service company to get that blockchain installed.
<Regenaxer>
I don't know really
<Regenaxer>
Their customers demand it
<Regenaxer>
retailers
<beneroth>
yeah, and that (sounds like journalistic or criminalistic, ergo investigative work) points to a not-computerize-able problem in essence
<Regenaxer>
They think they have to use blockchain in some way
<Regenaxer>
Just to be able to say "we too" :)
<Regenaxer>
Let's see
<beneroth>
well the trust problem is the point of data entry. I don't think this can be solved with the blockchain, unless you set up a huge crowd-based system of humans controlling each other (web of trust mechanic)
<Regenaxer>
They said to contact me again when they are ready for SimpleLinks
<beneroth>
well they should just put blockchain somewhere into their name and go with the funding they receive just for that ;)
<Regenaxer>
In our meeting I proposed a "PowerChain" or "SimChain"
<Regenaxer>
not a block chain
<beneroth>
I would find it more promising to go into genome analysis then. e.g. having a database of e.g. fruit genomes to proof sources.
<Regenaxer>
but a normal central db (in pil) which lets others check the entries
<Regenaxer>
also with hashes and a trust mechanism
<Regenaxer>
But they don't need a decentral blockchain
<Regenaxer>
As far as I understood
<beneroth>
this method is used to copyright swiss ementaler cheese afaik (they put special bacteria with known genome into the cheese which has no effect except that the "branded" cheese can be proven by having that bacteria genomes in it, while the "fake" cheese hasn't)
<beneroth>
I agree, from what I understand
<Regenaxer>
aka watermark in the cheese
<Regenaxer>
a germ mark :)
<beneroth>
aye. thought the cheese makers are not overly fond of it (participating is very expensive, too), some stopped participating in this scheme or plan to. and the scheme naturally doesn't work if some legitimate makers of "original emmentaler" cheese are not on board.
<beneroth>
in terms of value to society I find this schemes rather bullshit. but I guess this will come up more and more with more technical possibilities and the culture/laws of copyright extended ridiculously by the content-mafia (-industry)
<Regenaxer>
T
<beneroth>
hm
<beneroth>
I'm working with a NGO which fights for better living conditions of fishes (wild and in farms/processing). maybe it would be worth to set then and SIM together...
<Regenaxer>
not sure ;)
<beneroth>
they seek to become a consumer certificate, but currently they're not, so they are mainly active in research and education.
<Regenaxer>
A Swiss NGO?
<beneroth>
yeah
<Regenaxer>
I think SIM's speciality is overseas investigation
<Regenaxer>
s
<beneroth>
does SIM set up all their certifications themselves, or do they work with existing certification bodies? or do they not deal with quality/content certification but only with source certification?
<Regenaxer>
I think they communicate with remote authorities
<beneroth>
the ngo is active internationally.
<Regenaxer>
ah, ok
<beneroth>
though currently a rather smaller fish, afaik xD
<Regenaxer>
No idea how expensive SIM is
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<beneroth>
expensive or did maybe mean extensive?
<Regenaxer>
I meant the costs
<beneroth>
ah
<beneroth>
you mean as a goods producer (or goods trader) to be certified by them?
<beneroth>
interesting business environment
<Regenaxer>
yes
<Regenaxer>
An NGO can't spend lots of money I would think
<beneroth>
ah the case I mentioned was more like SMI might be interested in fish experts. and the ngo is interested in getting their methods used.
<Regenaxer>
Ah, I see
<beneroth>
else..it depends. afaik for specific projects can a NGO leverage its network/reputation to secure more money from other foundations and government, but the pool of not-purposely-bound money which the NGO can invest is naturally smaller.
<beneroth>
the "business model" of a NGO is basically getting money from many (or a few rich) people and invest it into education/research/marketing/lobbying/specific projects. which can be implemented by their own resources if they have some (e.g. payed employees) or third party.
<Regenaxer>
right
<beneroth>
in the case of certification it means basically building a brand, I think. the more producers adopting a certificate, the more visible it becomes for consumers/buyers, the higher the pressure for remaining producers to adopt it too.
<beneroth>
unless the certification is forced by law.
<beneroth>
so you want to have more buyers knowing (and liking) your brand, to leverage this into pressure/attractiveness on producers, and you want to more producers on board to increase visibility.
<beneroth>
network effects at play.
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<beneroth>
rick42, I'm currently preparing a introduction into c# for non-programmers. it really triggers in me the wish to make a picolisp book. or multiple: Learning Programming with PicoLisp (for Non-Programmers), PicoLisp for normal Programmers (normal as in average, e.g. mainstream coders), and maybe PicoLisp for Lisp-Programmers. How are your efforts doing?
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