<enyc>
any interesting revelations from circuit layout?
<Joerg-Neo900>
ahycka was sick (I'm now), so not much yet. ceene makes footprints, we're brushing some minor issues out of fped footprint editor (understanding, aka 'learning')
<enyc>
loganade1: aiui once proto_v2 shown to work, will likely be able to get an idea of the 'path to completion' in some sense, but that hasn't yet happened...
<Joerg-Neo900>
we're not furtune telling, it's turning out the future is not really predictable
<enyc>
yes crystal balls don't exist =)
<Joerg-Neo900>
what will be better after proto_v2 is our knowledge about how long it takes to make a PCB (layout and fab) and to assemble it
<enyc>
... and what unexpected sngas / mistakes / ("heaven forbid") unworkable-equipment exist in the proto v2
<Joerg-Neo900>
we're starting a new business with this Neo900, IOW we never did this before, we have to learn everything
<Joerg-Neo900>
I'm _pretty_ sure no such stuff exists in proto_v2
<enyc>
i know what you mean, had similar fun with some completely different irl porject r.e. unknowns/unexpecteds
<enyc>
lots of things you just couldn't have known
<Joerg-Neo900>
yes
<enyc>
but once proto_v2 going be in a state to have much better idea of the path-to-completion, better certainties and understanding and importantly tooling/resources!!!!
<enyc>
I can see tooling issues can be frustrating
<Joerg-Neo900>
yes, that too. And even better: we have something to show off and 'hands_on'
<enyc>
fix the tool that fixes the tool that does the something that actually designs the thing you were trying to make in the first place
<Joerg-Neo900>
ooh yeah, tooling. Eagle (the EDA tool for schematics and layout we used before we switched to kicad) now is owned by autocad and everything new
<enyc>
" and everything new" ??
<Joerg-Neo900>
seems we switched just in time to avoid this annoyance
<enyc>
are other projects using kicad / benefitting from / contributing to neo900-contributions to kicad?
<Joerg-Neo900>
>>#How to upgrade Upgrade today for less than your daily cup of coffee with EAGLE Subscription. LEARN ABOUT SUBSCRIPTION << [/quote promotional email to me]
<Joerg-Neo900>
err yes, several people were very excited about eeshow
<Joerg-Neo900>
and it's undeed groundbreaking tool
<Joerg-Neo900>
indeed*
<Joerg-Neo900>
random quotes from other channel (#kicad):
<Joerg-Neo900>
[2017-01-20 Fri 10:08:03] <dBerman> I don't hate myself.
<Joerg-Neo900>
[2017-01-20 Fri 10:09:23] <dBerman> Jokes aside and to be fair, it must be at least ten years since I used eagle
<Joerg-Neo900>
[2017-01-20 Fri 10:20:50] <xzcvczx> 10 years ago eagle was well ahead of kicad, now.... not so much
<Joerg-Neo900>
[2017-01-20 Fri 10:21:08] <inductiveload> xzcvczx: unless you want backannotation
<Joerg-Neo900>
[2017-01-20 Fri 10:21:29] <inductiveload> or graphics on the copper layer
<Joerg-Neo900>
[2017-01-20 Fri 10:21:56] <archivist> or get screwed with licensing
<Joerg-Neo900>
and no awsome eeshow for Eagle ;-)
<Joerg-Neo900>
with push&shove router (layout) and eeshow, I consider kicad clearly superior to eagle now
<Joerg-Neo900>
despite all the little quirks it has
<Joerg-Neo900>
eagle prolly also has its quirks, only they are more nasty and devastating, and hide way better. E.g we found several unconnected wires that however absolutely *looked* like they were correctly connected, when we converted schematics from eagle to kicad
<Joerg-Neo900>
this breaks your neck since you basically have no way to find out about that until the device "explodes into your face"
<Joerg-Neo900>
if you're lucky, Design Rule Check in your layout program will complain about unconnected pins, but your chances for that are only maybe 50%
<Joerg-Neo900>
actually Electrical Rule Check
<Joerg-Neo900>
iirc they had similar fun in Pandorabox prototypes too, only they found out the hard way, by non-working prototypes
Pali has joined #neo900
<enyc>
yes and don't want to repeat that mistake =)
<Joerg-Neo900>
same rule like always applies: each single footprint needs evaluation by the EE using it, nothing ever considered 'safe' unless you used it successfully by yourself in a PCB
<Joerg-Neo900>
anyway ~800 libs, some with multiple components. e.g. 40xx has like all 150 of that series
<Joerg-Neo900>
for sure worth a peek, if there's something to start from
louisdk has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<jonsger>
Joerg-Neo900: but it looks like the pyra will delivered in contrast to the Neo900 :(
<ravelo>
until now it looks like
<Joerg-Neo900>
it looks like our original layouter is totally shanghaied by Pyta, yes
<Joerg-Neo900>
that's why we had to switch to Kicad (which turns out to have been an excellent move at the right time, now at hindsight), and we need new layouters (we're lucky we found ahycka)
<ravelo>
hopefully ahycka will recover soon :)
<Joerg-Neo900>
yeah, get well soon ahycka!
chomwitt1 has joined #neo900
chomwitt has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
jefrite has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
jefrite has joined #neo900
jefrite has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
jefrite has joined #neo900
<atk>
jonsger: I'm optimistic.
<atk>
jonsger: Raptor Engineering were trying to find a lot of money for their Talos motherboard, and they effectively got 0.5mil, (of course they didn't because that wasn't enough)
<jonsger>
atk: yes. this was impressive
<atk>
I can't remember what the required minimum amount of downpayments was for things to go ahead, I think it was 800, with 250 existing downpayments (correct me if I'm wrong) that would be about 450 needed at around 1000EUR each
<atk>
so about 450K EUR, or about 0.5mil
<atk>
(USD)
<atk>
and certainly the Neo900 is quite a bit less niche and also cheaper than that motherboard
<atk>
So I guess if Neo900 can get good publicity and can show that they can manage with the money, things don't look THAT bad.
<ravelo>
it looks like there is a lot of interest in this device still
<jonsger>
but I payed 1k on 15.05.2015. thats more than 1,5 year and I didn't see any working prototype of neo900 :(
<atk>
Well, shit happens, but it seems recently things have been going pretty fast so we shall see.
<atk>
After paypal nonsense and endless delays, things seem to be looking up for once.
<ravelo>
yay
<jonsger>
atk: when do we see a working prototype?
<Joerg-Neo900>
we had unbearably huge delays from paypal and also from Pyra occupying one of the key persons (Nikolaus) - they still do
<Joerg-Neo900>
we're about to lay out proto_v2 right now
<atk>
well considering currently v2 is in progress (looks like that will certianly be this year) v1 must have happened at some point in the past
<Joerg-Neo900>
once layout is done, a 4 to 6 weeks for PCB making and assembly, then we should see them
<Joerg-Neo900>
V1 had no real functionality beyond mechanical evaluation and modem which all worked fine
<atk>
I think soon I will send in my last payment to get my downpayment up to the 900 EUR mark
<atk>
You know, it will be pretty scary walking around with a 900 EUR phone
<atk>
It's nice that the irreplacable bit is encased in replacable bits though.
<Joerg-Neo900>
ahycka: wpwrak: layout directive: make all 60p B2B-conn pads plugged vias, for mechanical sturdiness and repair, in case of devastating damage
<atk>
Incidentally, on that topic, I'm sure you've already thought of this but it would be nice to see some stress tests done on the board.
<atk>
Not like plunging in water or anything, but vibration and such.
<Joerg-Neo900>
yes, sure
<atk>
This will likely be a phone to use for 10+ years
<atk>
hopefully by then someone (maybe Neo900 UG) will make a worthy replacement.
<Joerg-Neo900>
we hope so, very much :-)
<Joerg-Neo900>
actually Neo900 is "only the pilot" to prove "we can". Should be feasible to find VC and build real volumes then, with better hardware. And not a single original Neo900 customer will regret being an early adopter :-)
<atk>
if future phones prove to be considerably cheaper to produce, will there be some plans for a small discount for Neo900 customers?
<Joerg-Neo900>
Neo900 success is success of the community, so commuity will benefit
<atk>
(I don't think I could legitimately get myself to spend €1000 on another phone any time soon :P, or it would have to be REALLY special)
<Joerg-Neo900>
atk: I rather thought of a full discount when you trade in your Neo900, or a partial but substantial discount when you keep your beloved Neo900
<atk>
hmm, that sounds like a decent deal
* atk
nods in agreement
<atk>
Well, I hope all the best for Neo900 UG in a successful career making phones.
<atk>
There should be a party for when Neo900 is successful.
<Joerg-Neo900>
next phone must be at least 20 times the volume of Neo900 (and easily will be, we're more up to date with our approach than ever), so a discount for that one out of 20 customers is feasible exonomically
<Joerg-Neo900>
and I also *hope* next phone won't suffer those annoying delays since we learned our lessons and we know our business contacts by then
<Joerg-Neo900>
I know this sounds ambitious, but I think we can do it
<atk>
You need ambitions to succeed.
jonsger1 has joined #neo900
jonsger has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
jonsger1 is now known as jonsger
paulk-collins has quit [Remote host closed the connection]