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<slyon>
heyho
<jake42>
hi :-)
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<Wikiwide>
Greetings from sleepless wanderer!
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<DocScrutinizer05>
greetings from flu infested sleeper
<DocScrutinizer05>
dos1: can you read "PHS8-P driver" mail?
<DocScrutinizer05>
sounds like czech or polish
<DocScrutinizer05>
>>Z poważaniem<<
<DocScrutinizer05>
char sequences like "W szczeg"... make my mind boggle ;)
<wpwrak>
but it helps you to immediately realize why so many gifted programmers come from there ;-)
<jonwil>
Russia also seems to have lots of smart programmers
<jonwil>
Although too many of them seem more interested in writing software that harms humanity :(
<DocScrutinizer05>
it seems in Russia it's simply impossible to live a positive and law-obeying life. Maybe that's why
<Humpelstilzchen>
jonwil: Might be in reality NSA software written to look like Russian..
<jonwil>
I doubt the NSA wrote fake bank websites designed to steal all your money
<jonwil>
or fake paypal websites
<Humpelstilzchen>
We already know that the NSA clones sites like yahoo...
<jonwil>
or the viruses that lock all your files until you pay money to unlock them
<DocScrutinizer05>
and particularly they would choose another strawman identity than Russian. Chinese for example
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<DocScrutinizer05>
don't think those files ever get unlocked when you pay!
<DocScrutinizer05>
implementing such function that allows for having a non-crackable individual unlock code is way too complicated and doesn't earn them gangsters a single cent. So you're better off accepting that a virus destroyed all your data and _not_ pay, than to pay and then realize that the files are not encrypted but destroyed
<Wikiwide>
Sounds extremely unpleasant. As in, "why do people even use Windows nowadays?". And: where do I put an extremely large back-up of data, to make sure it's preserved, and not deleted, ever?
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<DocScrutinizer05>
that's what IT is for you today
<DocScrutinizer05>
get a backup, or consider to say "thank you virus for deleting that rubish on my drives"
<Wikiwide>
No wonder people are looking TB-sized USB memory... Or looking forward to it, at least.
<DocScrutinizer05>
there is a duzen or two of ways to lose your "valuable" data. Not only viruses. Drives also generally fail eventually
<DocScrutinizer05>
dozen*
<Wikiwide>
About IT and Anti-Virus: not sure that IT checks that every computer has up-to-date definitions. They still have Firefox 17.0.9 ESR.
<Wikiwide>
Firefox 10, at some computers, even. And I would welcome a filesystem which does not allow to delete a file, remembers all versions of file, and stores itself in three identical and independent copies. So that any error could be worked around smoothly.
<Wikiwide>
Fossil file system seems to be fairly close. But I haven't research the topic much, yet.
<Wikiwide>
researched*
<DocScrutinizer05>
btrfs also has nice features
<DocScrutinizer05>
but yeah, some general copy-on-write fs would be fine
<DocScrutinizer05>
cleanup gets a tad nasty for such fs
<DocScrutinizer05>
figure /var/log/* or, even worse, /tmp/*
<DocScrutinizer05>
and don't dare to have swap on a file then ;-P
<DocScrutinizer05>
IT was meant as a general group of activities, not as label on a door of a ivision of your company
<DocScrutinizer05>
division*
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<DocScrutinizer05>
((why do people even use Windows nowadays)) yes, that's one of the reasons I use linux and konqueror
<DocScrutinizer05>
simply because few other people do
<bencoh>
openvms as native versioning 25years ago ;p
<bencoh>
had*
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<DocScrutinizer05>
well, wpwrak tries to convince me about advantages of having everything and its inode in git. I think it's quite a PITA to check out every single little ascii file before I can edit a silly typo and then I have to check it in again, all via cryptic cmdline git
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'm more the click&run type in that regard. I love to inspect a remote file in konqueror via sftp://, then simply select "open in... libreoffice" and actually edit the file in whatever tool it needs, then simply choose "save" in that tool and the remote file gets updated
<DocScrutinizer05>
alas this whole mechanism isn't very stable, it tends to break down when you 'open' a remote file for several hours so e.g. a reconnect on your internet connection will cause the sftp// connection to stall
<DocScrutinizer05>
but any vms is pretty much 180° opposite direction of what I hope for
<DocScrutinizer05>
btrfs with automated snapshots, maybe triggered by inotify, that would be more like it
<wpwrak>
it's like walking. if you think about the movement every single muscle has to make, you'll end up on your nose before you complete your first step. but once you've had a bit of training, it's second nature.
<DocScrutinizer05>
and still most people prefer using the bike or even drive a car, rather than walking
<wpwrak>
i have to admit that git is habit-forming, though: you may make your commits much more precise than with other, inferior, revision control systems. e.g., with svn people often just commit all their junk at the end of the day. with git, you see nice step by step commits fairly often.
<DocScrutinizer05>
git is a _very_ sourcecode-centric tool made for people who have to manage that sourcecode
<Wizzup>
It's also quite nice for a lot of other things
<wpwrak>
well, what would you expect of a revision control system ? :)
<Wizzup>
A lot of people use git-annex for distr. photo storage, etc
<DocScrutinizer05>
ok, use git for the temp files of gimp and I will tell you what I don't like in your solution
<DocScrutinizer05>
git is an halfarsed solution for problems I don't have
<DocScrutinizer05>
the original idea been "don't allow user to accidentally damage or delete files". Adding another layer where user can fail will not accomplish the task
<DocScrutinizer05>
>>And I would welcome a filesystem which does not allow to delete a file, remembers all versions of file, and stores itself in three identical and independent copies<< sounds like RAID with some journalling or versioning fs on top, not like "git is the solution"
<DocScrutinizer05>
as alreaidy said btrfs with automatically triggered snapshots on any event in the dirs you're interested in would pretty much fulfill the requirements
<wpwrak>
that sounds like your average runaway bureaucracy: submit in triplicate, keep files forever. thanks you for explaining to us that this is a great idea ;-)))
<DocScrutinizer05>
oh, RAID is an idiocy? OK...
<DocScrutinizer05>
and doesn't git keep files forever?
<wpwrak>
you can make it forget things if you really want to
<DocScrutinizer05>
great!
<dos1>
greeting from stomach flu recovering sleeper :)
<dos1>
+s
<DocScrutinizer05>
so why should I use it when the requirement is >>And I would welcome a filesystem which does not allow to delete a file, remembers all versions of file, and stores itself in three identical and independent copies<<
<DocScrutinizer05>
dos1: dang, exactly my problem
<wpwrak>
it's the same as with your tax record: if you have to keep them in triplicate and forever, then don't burn your archive.
<DocScrutinizer05>
.oO(???)
<dos1>
hehe. regular flu wouldn't be that bad (through probably arriving on OHSW to infect everyone else wouldn't be the wisest thing to do), but with this one additionally instead of sitting many hours in train I had to sit many hours in toilet, so any perspective of longer travel sounded pretty problematic ;)
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, I just got stomach ache and nausea
<dos1>
about the mail - it's funny, he wants to use PHS8 with his project and asks if we got Windows Embedded drivers for it :D
<DocScrutinizer05>
and fiever
<DocScrutinizer05>
LOL
<wpwrak>
travel with flu is always fun in the modern time. before you know it, there's some swine flu/ebola/etc. scan somewhere on your path ...
<dos1>
yay! videos from second day of OHSW
<DocScrutinizer05>
dos1: remember to return any train ticket. Needs to be done in time usually
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<DocScrutinizer05>
dang, inotify doesn't for for mmap
<DocScrutinizer05>
doesn't work for*
<DocScrutinizer05>
luckily mmap still needs an open
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<mvaenskae>
nice talk about the neo900 :)
<mvaenskae>
just watched it
<mvaenskae>
or rather the last minute is struggling very strong... no idea what's up with yt
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<dos1>
thanks :)
<dos1>
I haven't even forgotten about too much stuff that I wanted to say, so I'm quite happy :D (still, the beginning is painful for me to listen to ;] fortunately later it gets better)
<dos1>
I had a nice examples for walled gardens problem: the first, classic one, about Amazon removing 1984 from Kindles (I think it was the first similar case where it was loud about it in media and I *love* that it was exactly this title :D)
<dos1>
and second one, more "hot", but actually shocked me a little: latest U2 album and iPhones :)
<dos1>
I didn't expect so many people to be upset about that. for me it's natural that Apple controls those devices and can do stuff like that, and I simply thought (maybe unconciously) that people using those platforms don't really care
<dos1>
but turns out, at least some amount of them, simply don't know and was negatively surprised when they found that U2 album on their phones
<dos1>
I also wanted to put some emphasis on how Neo900 is a "pure" hardware platform, in a sense that unlike other phones it's not meant to come in hardware+software package; it's more like PC when you buy a hardware and install any software you like on it
<dos1>
and I think that's all that slipped out of my mind during the talk, so not bad actually :)
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<mvaenskae>
sorrz, got a bit distracted by studies (probability and statistics and then some food to keep me going) but i guess anyone interested in the neo900 will either put 2 and 2 together and realize the neo900 to be a minitature computer (giving you complete freedom) or will hear about it like once every odd day in this channel :)
<mvaenskae>
but yeah, nice talk and very informative on the broad aspects of what can all be exploited in a baseband and how to mitigate those problems and also addressing the question "will an open baseband be more private/secure?"
<mvaenskae>
the talked made it much clearer to me that i really want the neo900... like now :D
<mvaenskae>
s/talked/talk/
<mvaenskae>
wtf D: i cannot regexp?
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<enyc>
Hrrm... ?Is the existing n900 w/ Maemo, believed to be likely to have baseband firmware backdoors? entirely unknown? etc...
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<enyc>
errrrrrrrrrr and moreso the 2g/3g/phone, rather than just the wifi/bluetooth, soryr for being misleading
<dos1>
enyc: hard to tell, but thankfully, the baseband doesn't have a control over main system on N900
<dos1>
AFAIK it might be able to restart it (there was some kind of mutual watchdog), but don't cite me on that ;)
<enyc>
dos1: goodogod, what about the 2g/3g phone modem ?
<enyc>
Samsungs' android etc. was shown to have a *workable* backdoor interface thing i recall
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<DocScrutinizer05>
((wtf D: i cannot regexp?)) sed=0 in chanset
<DocScrutinizer05>
enyc: dos1 just told you that the Mei900 baseband has no control over the system, unlike android phones
<enyc>
DocScrutinizer05: hrrm i must be talking cross-purposes... last i looked up baseband that was wifi/bluetooth not gsm/2g/3g but maybe here the term really does mean also the mobile modem
<DocScrutinizer05>
we technically and by design avoided a situation where such bacldoor can happen
<DocScrutinizer05>
~wiki baseband
<infobot>
At http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baseband (URL), Wikipedia explains: " A signal is 'baseband' if it has a spectral magnitude that is nonzero for frequencies in the vicinity of the origin (i.e. "f" = 0) and negligible elsewhere.{{cite book | title = Digital and Analog Communication Systems | author = Leon W. Couch II | publisher = Prentice Hall | year = 1993 }} In telecommunications and signal processing, baseband signals are transmitted without ...
<DocScrutinizer05>
neh
<kerio>
why is it even called baseband anyway
<DocScrutinizer05>
the term baseband is rather fuzzy and incorrectly used in most cases
<enyc>
i see =)
<enyc>
DocScrutinizer05: so what is 'baseband' used to mean here, in the context of mobile phones / similar components, in a practical sense?
<DocScrutinizer05>
phone dudes often use baseband as the digital part of the GSM stack
<enyc>
aah like all the DSP decode/ gsm equivalent of PPP etc, in a separate 'baseband' processor?
<DocScrutinizer05>
actually baseband would be the digital or low frequency part of any RF hardware
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes
<enyc>
ok
<DocScrutinizer05>
a block diagram of a cellular phone often has the blocks baseband and transceiver
<enyc>
thankyou, that mkes more sense now
<enyc>
DocScrutinizer05: where the transciever is HF (de)modulator / DAC/ADC part ?
<dos1>
~wiki baseband processor
<infobot>
At http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baseband_processor (URL), Wikipedia explains: "{{More footnotes|date=March 2014}} A 'baseband processor' (also known as 'baseband radio processor', 'BP', or 'BBP') is a device (a chip or part of a chip) in a network interface that manages all the radio functions (all functions that require an antenna). This may not include Wi-Fi and/or Bluetooth. A baseband processor typically uses its own RAM and firmware. Baseband ...
<enyc>
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!
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<DocScrutinizer05>
enyc: cellphone (as prolly all modern RF technologies) is a "SWR" ehich produces I/Q signal in software and via DAC and sends those I/Q signals to transmitter. For receiver it works exactly opposite way
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<DocScrutinizer05>
s/SWR/SDR/
<DocScrutinizer05>
software defined radio
<Pali>
do you know some alternative to MTP protocol?
<Pali>
provide data via USB on file level (not whole filesstem level)
<DocScrutinizer05>
file level? you mean like open() read() write() close() ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
tty_acm
<DocScrutinizer05>
actually tty*
<DocScrutinizer05>
all tty are charakter devices, and pseudo files
<Pali>
I mean something which provides files/directories like FTP
<Pali>
alternative to MTP
<Pali>
mass storage export full block device which cause that usb host must support FS on that block device and you cannot access that block device from both sides
<DocScrutinizer05>
Pali: there's around a dozen protocols, I dunno what exactly you are looking for
<Pali>
something for USB
<DocScrutinizer05>
every protocol is compatible with USB
<Pali>
ok, protocol which is implemted in linux kernel/userspace for USB
<DocScrutinizer05>
when you want a non-"blocking" method, I suggest fs-shares
<DocScrutinizer05>
samba/nfs
<Pali>
something which is already implemented
<Pali>
I did not heard about using samba over usb
<Pali>
basically I know that usb mass storage is supported (but that does not allow you to share FS)
<Pali>
and that MTP
<jake42>
samba over ip over usb (and some more in between) :-)
<Pali>
I would like to avoid complexity
<Pali>
IP over USB only for file transfer is really stupid
<Pali>
I can use normal FTP over IP and do not need to deal with samba/nfs
<Pali>
also something which is fast for file fransfers
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<kerio>
what's wrong with nfs-over-usb-over-ip
<Oksana>
:-) average runaway bureaucracy: submit in triplicate, keep files forever. :-) Well, it's way better than thinking: what if the hard drive fails and I lose all photographs of the last five years, and my current work, too?
<DocScrutinizer05>
Oksana: I'd really appreciate when you clearly marked quotes. And possibly even truncated them to the minimum length needed
<DocScrutinizer05>
we already suffered a misconception where somebody answered to such quote like it was your original statement
<DocScrutinizer05>
which resulted in you not understanding the answer
<DocScrutinizer05>
kerio: nfs-over-ip-over-usb
<DocScrutinizer05>
usb-over-ip is really kinda nasty ytuff
<DocScrutinizer05>
stuff*
<kerio>
on the other hand, it already exists
<kerio>
and so does nfs-over-ip
<kerio>
how would Pali's idea even work
<kerio>
do you need a special program to copy stuff?
<kerio>
do you mount something with a particular fs?
<DocScrutinizer05>
I usually use sftp-over-ip-over-wlan
<DocScrutinizer05>
sftp-over-ip-over-usb should work identically
<kerio>
no, i meant pali's idea of an ad-hoc protocol
<Pali>
I do not need asymetric cryptography for copying file over usb
<DocScrutinizer05>
ad-hoc protocol only meant the lower layers of protocol get established and torn down on demand
<Pali>
this is total nonsense
<DocScrutinizer05>
Pali: you're free to use whatever you like
<Pali>
also usb is not good layer for IP
<Pali>
I want something for file transfer
<DocScrutinizer05>
just there's no widespread support and for sure no support for "ad-hoc" for any of that
<Pali>
and I want to use max transport speed
<Pali>
no stupid protocol overhead
<Pali>
like MTP (which is already semi-implemented and semi-supported on more OSes)
<Pali>
ok, is there *any* protocol which using only one channel and provide FTP-like support?
<kerio>
ftp
<Pali>
no, FTP needs more channels
<kerio>
http
<Pali>
and for each file transfer should be used separate connection
<Pali>
http does not support listing files/directories
<Pali>
and is one way
<Pali>
(there is no standard suport for upload)
<kerio>
http put
<kerio>
standard
<DocScrutinizer05>
listing files/dirs also seems pretty much standard
<DocScrutinizer05>
just fetch the dir and you get a listing of its content
<kerio>
no you don't
<Pali>
parsing apache HTML output?
<DocScrutinizer05>
wrapped into a minimum of html markup
<Pali>
ehm... this does not looks like good
<kerio>
you get some sort of html page
<kerio>
which barely follows the standard
<DocScrutinizer05>
which standard?
<kerio>
html
<DocScrutinizer05>
lol
<kerio>
Pali: sftp with -c none?
<DocScrutinizer05>
anyway, there is no such mystical thing Pali looks for
<DocScrutinizer05>
kerio: sftp is "s" which Pali doesn't like
<kerio>
that's why i added something after "sftp"
<kerio>
you should read messages fully, doc
<DocScrutinizer05>
I do, but not always decode them
<kerio>
Secure Shell does have an option to use encryption of type "none" this is only for debugging purposes, and should not be used.
<kerio>
:3
<DocScrutinizer05>
ok, this could actually reduce CPU load by a few percent
<Pali>
this is bad... there is mass storage protocol which transfer raw parts of block device
<kerio>
yes Pali
<Pali>
and there is nothing which can do same but not on block level, but on VFS level
<kerio>
we understand your problem
<DocScrutinizer05>
sorry, I'm sick, and now afk again
<Pali>
I think this is rational and normal need
<kerio>
sftp
<kerio>
the cpu won't be the bottleneck
<Pali>
yes, on n900 I'm using USB CDC ethernet layer with IP layer and with SSH server for transfering files
<Pali>
but I still think that this is stupid
<DocScrutinizer05>
when you want to replace block device access, you need to implement a more or less comprehensive subset of filesystem API. Incl file locking, atribute management etc pp
<kerio>
DocScrutinizer05: or you can just half-ass it
<kerio>
and that's how nfs was born
<kerio>
:>
<kerio>
to be fair, posix atomic operations don't translate well to networks AT ALL
<kerio>
Pali: well, the cpu could be the bottleneck on n900
<Pali>
ok, but something which can be used as replacement for MTP
<Pali>
older Nokia phones used ObexFTP protocol for these operations
<Pali>
but it was slow too....
<Pali>
(plus protocol is XML wrapped, total nonsense too)
<Pali>
something like TFTP protocol with directory support will be good
<wpwrak>
when in a desperate situation, ask yourself "what would Cptn. Kirk do ?"
<Pali>
start it on top of /dev/ttyUSB and it should be faster then all those MS stupid ideas...
<wpwrak>
obviously, "use the transporter" :)
<wpwrak>
there, problem solved
<Pali>
who is Cptn.?
<wpwrak>
hmm, those tribes deep in the amazon jungle ... never been in touch with modern civilization. no tv, no star trek ... ;-)
<Oksana>
:-) No tv, but I did read (a little) about him...