<charles`>
I made my type-functions be able to have package local definitions as well as package local enabling, but I'm still rebinding cl:eval
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<Josh_2>
If I use lists to store some config info in a file is read-from-string a safe means or retrieving it? I am pretty sure there are some 'more secure' versions around
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<mfiano>
Bind *read-eval*. Of course this depends on your definition of safety
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<Josh_2>
well to be fair It's upto the user to keep their config safe
<mfiano>
It's not going to help with READER-ERRORs, but it will mostly prevent read-time evaluation. Just don't read "1f999" or something.
<Josh_2>
well if their are reader errors then they dun goofed it up
<mfiano>
But you don't have to implement this yourself.
<mfiano>
You can use uiop:safe-read-file-line or uiop:safe-read-file-form etc
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<Josh_2>
Thats what I was looking for
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<Kingsy>
anyone in here use lisp with slimv on neovim ?
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<charles`>
Xach: my utility doesn't work on for compile, the compiler gives style-warnings for undefined functions (rightfully so).
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<Xach>
charles`: ah well
<Xach>
it seems like a real challenge to implement, so i look forward to any interesting implementation ideas you may have
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<_death>
ralt: it looks acceptable, but perhaps there should be a new defgeneric for the connection protocol, receive-file-descriptors, and the method should be in transport-unix.lisp.. the C function's name should be qualified by a dbus library-specific name, like dbus_lisp_receive_fds.. this post https://blog.cloudflare.com/know-your-scm_rights/ seems to put the buffer into a union to ensure alignment
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<ikrabbe>
Good morning: I'm searching for a little example for specifying types: (let's assume I want to define a type workspace, that is a list containing a name, a list of files and an address of a machine, which again is a list, not speicified yet.
<ikrabbe>
So how do I write (deftype workspace (list string (list pathnames*) (list)))? in a correct way?
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<Bike>
there's no way to specify a "proper list of [whatever]" type, unfortunately
<jdz>
Lists in Common List consist of CONS cells. Fields of CONS cells can be specified, but the n you have to also specify exact number of cells.
<jdz>
In Common Lisp, of course.
<ikrabbe>
jdz: that is no problem, to specify the number of cells, so cons might be my friend, and yes :CL
<jdz>
ikrabbe: You might also consider using a class (or structure) for your top-level container (instead of a list).
<_death>
if you want a type-ish solution, you can use a class or a structure.. (defstruct workspace name files machine-address)
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<_death>
you can always write a function to make an instance out of the list syntax you defined
<ikrabbe>
_death_: yes, that's where I currently am. Now I wonder if I can use the common-lisp type system to check the structure of a cell.
<jdz>
(typep '(42 . "42") '(cons number string))
<ikrabbe>
As I have strong doubts against type systems and OO (not to be discussed here), I want to find a minimal approach.
<jdz>
(typep '(42 "42") '(cons number (cons string null))
<jdz>
)
<_death>
ikrabbe: you can define a predicate function for that
<ikrabbe>
jdz: that looks readonable. Let me check ..., btw: I guess it should be possible to narrow the type: (deftype theanswer '(cons (and number (values 42)) (cons (and string (values "42") null))) ?
<ikrabbe>
(so (typep '(41 "42") 'theanswer) would be false obvously ;))
<jdz>
ikrabbe: I'm starting to think I'm missing what you're trying to achieve.
<_death>
for 42 you could (eql 42) but won't do what you want for strings
<ikrabbe>
I'm just trying to understand the type system and how to use it to narrow type queries.
<jdz>
Yes, you can play around in the repl with TYPEP all you want (just try not to copy/paste your session here, use a paste site). But what is the purpose? If you just want to understand, then I'd suggest reading the Types section of the spec.
<jdz>
Types and Classes section , to be exact.
<Bike>
if you deal with these kinds of involved cons types a lot, you might consider (deftype list-of (&rest elems) (if (null elems) 'null `(cons ,(first elems) (list-of ,@(rest elems))))), so that (list-of (eql 42) string) = (cons (eql 42) (cons string null))
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<ikrabbe>
Yes, I double pasted it, but I wanted to express the idea of a type match (or not-match more important))
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<ikrabbe>
Bike: Thanks, that looks like something I searched for...
<Bike>
the reason jdz is asking (i figure) is that there are a couple different possible things the type system is good for. if you want to use it to provide hints to the compiler for optimization, these kinds of types probably aren't that useful. but if you're actually just testing your own data with typep like this that's probably fine.
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<beach>
ikrabbe: Putting your stuff in a standard object wouldn't make your program "OO". And it is almost never a good solution to use lists for this type of aggregation.
<beach>
ikrabbe: That said, there is no reason to fear Common Lisp-style "OO".
<shka_>
on the contrary, there are good reasons to embrace it
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<nij>
What kind of structures aren't #'READable? Or rather, what kind of structures cannot be made #'READable?
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<nij>
I reckon it might be convenient to dump the current state of my REPL in a reloadable bunch of sexprs. Wonder why that's not possible.
<beach>
There are object, like functions for instance, that can't be be externalized.
<beach>
nij: My library Clobber is essentially based on that idea.
<beach>
nij: Every "transaction" is saved in a READable format so that if you load the transaction log from a fresh Common Lisp system, it creates a "similar" object graph.
<ikrabbe>
I don't fear OO, but everytime I freed from OO concepts my programs
<ikrabbe>
got several times shorter without loosing
<ikrabbe>
that would hide otherwise from my mind.
<ikrabbe>
when I think about an algorithm without fixing the types, I often see the abstraction
<ikrabbe>
expressiveness or performance. I really don't want to discuss that here, though
<beach>
nij: And Clobber preserves object identity across transactions, so that EQ objects participating in separate transactions become EQ also after the log is loaded.
<beach>
ikrabbe: You must not have been using OO in Common Lisp then.
<nij>
beach: haven't learned about objects yet. But aren't functions just lambdas?
<beach>
No.
<beach>
They are compiled binary code.
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<nij>
Well, would starting to annotate the lambda sexp to the binary code changes this?
<beach>
And there is no such thing as "a lambda" in Common Lisp. There is the symbol LAMBDA, there are LAMBDA lists, and LAMBDA expressions, not "a lambda".
<beach>
nij: Not every function has an equivalent lambda expression, for example if the function is a closure.
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<beach>
It is not meant for production. I wrote it to make fun of "object prevalence". It does have some shortcomings. Like I don't think you can redefine how hash tables are printed. But otherwise it seems to work.
<beach>
On the other hand, it's less than 300 lines of code.
<nij>
so what is object prevalence @@
<nij>
(tried googling it briefly)
<beach>
I think it was invented by the Java people.
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<ldb>
optimizing lisp compilers such as SBCL actually uses "type directed optimization"
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<beach>
As far as I can tell, object prevalence does not tolerate redefinitions of classes and such between the time an object was written and the time it is read back. Clobber, on the other hand, is based only on the protocol properties of classes and objects, i.e., initargs for creation and slot accessors for, er, access.
<beach>
nij: The term "CLOS object" is meaningless. Every Common Lisp datum is an object, and every object has a class, and every class is part of CLOS.
<ldb>
guess it means "complex data objects that usually has no defualt print method"
<beach>
In Cleavir, we print ASTs (which are actually not trees, they can have cycles) using the notation [package:class-name :initarg1 value1 ... :initargn valuen] and we define a readtable in which [ does (apply #'make-instance (read ...) (read-delimited-list ...))
<beach>
It is a simple technique and it works quite well.
<beach>
So well in fact, that this external format is the SICL FASL format.
<ldb>
won't the FASL be very large in text format?
<beach>
Nobody cares.
<beach>
But if you do care, it compresses extremely well.
<beach>
And I am not convinced that binary code would be any smaller.
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<ldb>
I think is possible to save some identifier names by using de Bruijn encoding
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<shka_>
ldb: just zip the thing
* Xach
feels the earth shudder as attila_lendvai migrates 1000 repos
<attila_lendvai>
:D
<attila_lendvai>
Xach, how did you notice? i'm preparing the PR also
<Xach>
attila_lendvai: twitter.com/NewLispRepos
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<attila_lendvai>
oh! i didn't know about that. thanks!
<attila_lendvai>
Xach, FYI, i'm using the tagged-git stuff with a 'stable' tag. i hope it'll work! i've seen many repos using it now.
<Xach>
attila_lendvai: uh oh
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<Xach>
attila_lendvai: a moving tag??
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<attila_lendvai>
Xach, well, they won't move much because we are not active in CL nowadays...
<Xach>
ok
<Xach>
someone else uses a moving tag and it is a hassle - it is better usually to use a branch
<attila_lendvai>
Xach, but i've seen list 10-20 projects in ql using it... i thought its fine
<Xach>
attila_lendvai: it is not great
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<h4ck3r9696>
Does anyone know where I can find resources about sending and receiving binary data with usocket, in a TCP stream? I currently use read-sequence on a usocket-stream, but it doesn't work very well: I have to wait for the received message to be long enough for it do be read, and I can't read more than the specified size of the buffer.
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<_death>
unfortunately CL has no read-byte-no-hang.. you can try using nonblocking sockets, or you can use, say, iolib
<jmercouris>
what's a good way of getting a unique ID for every instance of an object?
<jmercouris>
the only thing that comes to mind is a singleton during intialize-instance that gives a unique ID
<phoe>
jmercouris: a counter
<jmercouris>
phoe: well, yeah, that's what I am effectively suggesting
<jmercouris>
the singleton would be the counter in my example
<ldb>
get their address
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<phoe>
ldb: that is not required to be constant or unique
<jmercouris>
that's what I was afraid of
<jmercouris>
phoe: what are those numbers that slime prints?
<jmercouris>
are those unique?
<phoe>
the GC can move an instance and then create a new one at the same raw memory address.
<jackdaniel>
I mean, there is nothing inherently bad with this macro performance-wise, it just generalizes concept mentioned in the linked lispbook article
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<_death>
jackdaniel: should use reverse though
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<nij>
_death: AH it works (for notification)
<jackdaniel>
as I said, it was write-only. why should I use reverse?
<ldb>
jackdaniel: wouldn't there be penalty using stream for piping a lot of data?
<_death>
jackdaniel: because otherwise you're risking modifying a &rest list
<jackdaniel>
that depends on the implementation
<jackdaniel>
(whether there is stream penalty)
<nij>
_death: it isn't using any cli binary secretly at all?
<jmercouris>
lol
<jmercouris>
'secretly'
<_death>
nij: no, it communicates with dbus using sockets
<jmercouris>
I mean, it is kind of secretly using a binary
* nij
's soul is elavated, a tiny bit.
<jmercouris>
dbus is certainly communicating with a binary
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<jmercouris>
that will only Work on Linux systems with a dbus bus running
<jackdaniel>
_death: yes, you are right
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<jackdaniel>
rest parameter is allowed to share structure with the last argument to apply. otoh, hm, it is a macro
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<jackdaniel>
so you can't call apply on it
<_death>
jackdaniel: the standard says the consequences are undefined, iirc
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<jackdaniel>
either way using nreverse is just bad style, so I should have used reverse anyway (and even better - not reverse at all and collect subforms instead)
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<drl>
Is there any way to tell what SBCL features have been enabled?
<jackdaniel>
uhm
<jmercouris>
*features*
<jmercouris>
drl: ^
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<Bike>
since it's a macro, if it modifies any part of the form there are undefined consequences, per the general restriction in 3.1.2.1.2.2
<Bike>
i always think that bit is kind of funny
<jmercouris>
Bike: spitting out facts
<jackdaniel>
thanks for providing the section, I was looking for it
<jmercouris>
what if you make a copy of the form?
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<jmercouris>
how can we copy objects in CL actually?
<_death>
copy-list
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<jmercouris>
I'm talking about a generalizable way to copy objects in memory
<jmercouris>
possible?
<Bike>
nope
<_death>
cue kmp article
<jmercouris>
so we have to implement our own clone methods for any objects we wish to copy?
<Bike>
pretty much. what copying means can vary depending on the kind of object and what you're doing with it, which is why C++ has all that crazy stuff about custom copy constructors
<jmercouris>
ah yes
<Bike>
since unlike C++ the language runtime doesn't need to make new copies of objects, there's no need for some kind of specializable copy
<jmercouris>
I've read this article I think 3 years ago now
<jmercouris>
I forgot
<Bike>
(there are copying collectors, but then the old version is invalid, and they're only concerned about the bytes, so it's fine i guess)
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<_death>
Bike: since there can be only one copy constructor, it doesn't solve the problem
<drl>
jmercouris, What do you mean?
<jmercouris>
drl: when you nod your head yes, but you want to say no, what do you mean?
<jmercouris>
drl: in a REPL type in *features*
<Bike>
oh, and if it wasn't clear, if you copy the form passed to a macro you can do whatever you want with the copy
<jmercouris>
drl: it will list to you all of the features enabled in your SBCL as a list
<Bike>
assuming you're only manipulating the actually copied bits and not any uncopied deeper structure, obvs
<jmercouris>
drl: it is a special variable, for example we have :SB-THREAD, or :SB-FUTEX
<jmercouris>
Bike: I figured as much
<_death>
Bike: also, usually the "solution" is a clone member function.. that can handles subclasses etc.. but then, you may need multiple such functions.. clone_shallow, clone_deep, clone_everything_but_this and clone_everything_replacing_that
<Bike>
yeah
<drl>
jmercouris, Thanks.
<Bike>
all i was getting at is that the reason C++ has copy constructors is because the language semantics means "assignments" might actually be copies, and stuff like that
<beach>
Someone should teach minion about that article by Kent Pitman, so that we can say "minion: please tell jmercouris about copying" and "minion: please tell so-and-so about equality".
<jmercouris>
drl: you are most welcome
<_death>
beach: the cliki support could be used, if it even works nowadays
<jmercouris>
at least cloning of primitives could be relatively simple
<Bike>
there are built in coperators for cloning proper lists and trees, provided they aren't circular
<Bike>
operators
<Bike>
as well as structs. copying circular structures is kind of a huge pain though.
<jmercouris>
S E N T I N E L
<jmercouris>
is there a standard sentinel object ?
<jmercouris>
some sort of convention perhaps?
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<beach>
jmercouris: Copying circular structures can be handled by the use of a hash table.
<jmercouris>
I guess the copy could mantain the first element it processes and if it hits an EQ with the same element, it halts
<jmercouris>
beach: similar to what I just said?
<beach>
jmercouris: It would have to hold every object.
<jmercouris>
beach: I guess so
<beach>
Circularity is not always back to the first object.
<Bike>
yeah, you basically have to have a hash table
<Bike>
it's doable, just kind of a pain is all
<beach>
READ does it, and Cleavir does it for ASTs and such.
<beach>
But yeah, a pain to code.
<beach>
And PRINT.
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<_death>
beach: I used eclector the other day.. works great ;)
<beach>
_death: Yes, it does, all thanks to scymtym_. I haven't touched it for quite some time.
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<beach>
It's the only reader of SICL. And if I were to implement a Common Lisp system the "traditional" way, i.e., write a base system in C or C++, I would write a very primitive reader, capable only of reading the Eclector code, in the implementation language.
<jmercouris>
beach: since SICL is built with SBCL, does that mean the performance of SICL is bottlenecked by SBCL until a time that SICL can build itself?
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<beach>
No. SBCL is just used for executing the bootstrapping procedure and the compiler during bootstrapping .
<jmercouris>
why must SBCL be used, can ANY compiler be used for bootstrapping?
<beach>
Any conforming Common Lisp system that also supports closer-mop should be possible.
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<jmercouris>
will SICL ever be a complete implmentation used by individuals? or is it destined to be a research instrument?
<beach>
I should hope the former.
<jackdaniel>
since sicl is modular some of its modules are already used by individuals (via clasp)
<jackdaniel>
in other words is already used by individuals
<jmercouris>
I wonder when CLASP will be more accessible
<beach>
jmercouris: We have invented so many techniques that have the potential to make SICL faster than any other implementation, and it is certainly much easier to maintain. But there is a lot of work left.
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<jmercouris>
that's one I really look forward to
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<jmercouris>
beach: can SICL bootstrap SICL?
<beach>
Not yet, since we can't yet produce an executable.
<beach>
jmercouris: Clasp exists, and uses plenty of SICL stuff.
<jmercouris>
no ability to save an image? no ability to reload an image?
<jmercouris>
beach: yeah, but it is not accessible for a casual user, installing Clasp is difficult for a typical person
<beach>
No ability to even create an executable that can be started by typing `sicl' to the shell.
<beach>
Ah, yes, I see.
<Bike>
we're working on that. slowly. the build experience is probably the worst part of clasp right now.
<jmercouris>
do you work with any teams to ensure that your work from SICL gets ported?
<jmercouris>
or do you just publish it and hope that they adopt it?
<Bike>
well, he started cleavir and we're using that in clasp now
<jmercouris>
Bike: it certainly is, I would have seriously considered writing Qt bindings for Clasp if it had been easier to get started, but I figured nobody would help
<jmercouris>
Bike: the question is, was this a cooperative effort, or did Clasp just integrate Cleavir because it existed
<Bike>
yeah, sorry. we don't have a lot of people. I'm not good with build system stuff, and the people who are are busy trying to fix it for other people.
<beach>
jmercouris: Several people hang out in #sicl and they are both helping out and taking some inventions elsewhere (like scymtym_ implementing "fast generic dispatch" for SBCL).
<Bike>
it's a cooperative effort in that other clasp developers and i have done plenty of work on cleavir
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<Bike>
if you mean, like, did beach go out and try to sell drmeister on it, i actually don't know
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<beach>
No, it's the other way around. drmeister essentially begged me to use it.
<beach>
jmercouris: There is a project now to implement my "fast generic dispatch" for ECL.
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<Bike>
heh, makes sense
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<jackdaniel>
to be precise: there is some groundwork done and there is a person who wants to carry it (if their supervisor agrees)
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<beach>
jmercouris: And karlosz wrote a Cleavir-based compiler for CLISP.
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<jackdaniel>
if not, I'll drag it to being implemented eventually :)
<beach>
Heh!
<jackdaniel>
somewhere between fixing bugs in ecl, mcclim and other gigs
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<beach>
The technique is not that complicated actually.
<jackdaniel>
n.b, recently ecl was successfully used on sailfishos to write an application with eql5
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<jackdaniel>
(by someone™, check the mailing list:)
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<jackdaniel>
I know, the crucial point is a time window and a potentially costly context switch (from the attention perspective)
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<nij>
Why does (ql:quickload :dbus) take so much time to start up (3~5 seconds?)? Can I disable its checking?
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<_death>
nij: you can save a core with third party projects loaded.. though then you need to maintain that core as you update them
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<nij>
#!/home/nij/my-core --script Ah should be just this. Worked :D
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<_death>
nij: in .emacs I set slime-lisp-implementations to a list that contains an entry like (sbcl ("sbcl" "--dynamic-space-size" "8GB" "--core" "/home/death/lisp/core/my-core")) (and set slime-default-lisp to sbcl)
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<_death>
nij: I also have a mysbcl shell script, basically sbcl --dynamic-space-size 2GB --core ~/lisp/core/my-core "$@"
<_death>
though I should likely make that 8GB ;)
<nij>
how does the 2,8 make a difference?
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<_death>
nij: it makes a difference when you need more memory
<nij>
i see
<mfiano>
I think even 8 is pretty low these days. It's not like it is all allocated
<nij>
mfiano: how much you want?
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<_death>
mfiano: yeah.. I just multiplied it every time, though I think I did use 16GB several times
<mfiano>
I typically keep it at half of my available memory, so 32 on most machines. It helps the GC a bit, and I typically work with decoding gigabyte or larger (on disk, so even more memory) image data
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<drbluefall>
o/
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<phoe>
hey hi
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<_death>
nij: oh, and I also have a rebuild-core script.. that deletes the sbcl fasls from .cache and .slime and builds the core
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<beach>
drbluefall: Hello. Are you new here? I don't recognize your nick.
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<drbluefall>
I am indeed ^~^
<phoe>
hello there then!
<beach>
Great! Welcome! What brings you to #lisp?
<phoe>
how can we help you
<drbluefall>
well I'm just getting back into CL after a while and I'd thought I'd join
<beach>
Good plan!
<phoe>
sure, let us know if you have any problems or questions
* drbluefall
nods
<phoe>
#clschool also exists for when you have questions about the basics and/or #lisp is busy with other chat
<phoe>
and #lispcafe is for all your offtopic needs
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<heisig>
Speaking of helping others - are the tricks that have been posted here over the last few days (git hooks for touching ASD files, core files, elisp tricks, ...) written down somewhere?
<heisig>
Because if not, we should definitely start collecting these.
<phoe>
no idea - I assume you'd need to dig through the IRC logs and note them down
<phoe>
they are already collected in the logs, they just need to get denoised
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<attila_lendvai>
Xach, you really want me to list all the changes in a github issue, as opposed to opening a PR?!
<attila_lendvai>
Xach, or can we just make an exception and i open a PR?
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<phoe>
changes? do you mean somewhere in quicklisp-projects?
* attila_lendvai
remembers that he has already opened a PR to fix tagged-git, and had practically this discussion some 5 years ago
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<attila_lendvai>
phoe, yes, i have converted 10+ repos from darcs to git, and put them on github
<attila_lendvai>
nij, local-time was rather confused about the concept of timezones. it may have been cleaned up... (timestamps don't have a timezon. a timezone is only relevant when reading and printing/presenting timestamps for the external world)
<phoe>
@2021-01-27T17:47:28.500081Z
<phoe>
no timezone here either
<attila_lendvai>
note that Z is a timezone
<phoe>
!
<phoe>
I see
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<nij>
Z" what does it mean?
<attila_lendvai>
nij, note that it's impolite to ask questions from humans that can be trivially googled
<nij>
attila_lendvai: But a standard tutorial has something different from what I observe..
<attila_lendvai>
nij, that was before i pointed out that Z is a timezone
<nij>
Oh.. you mean it's literally a timezone =_=.. now I get it.
<attila_lendvai>
nij, no worries! just learn the lesson, and help participating in a more efficient society for the rest of your life... :)
<attila_lendvai>
i don't remember what's in the Naggum article anymore, but the timestamp representation of local-time contained a timezone, which is rather confused
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<_death>
attila_lendvai: it needs to include a timezone, because it represents a _local_ time
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<_death>
but I think it's confused because it should include an actual reference to a timezone, rather than the timezone shift that happens to be mandated at that instant
<_death>
*just the timezone shift
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<attila_lendvai>
_death, the timezone is the property of the presentation context, not that of a timestamp. it's only relevant when the timestamp is actaully presented to a human somewhere.
<_death>
then again, it depends on what you use it for ;)
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<_death>
attila_lendvai: sure, for some uses that's reasonable.. for others, you may want to include it as provenance information
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<_death>
attila_lendvai: but local-time actually represents timestamps as you say
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<attila_lendvai>
either way, l-t used to have several operatons defined on those values that didn't make much sense.
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<attila_lendvai>
i cleaned up much of l-t at one point, added some tests, but still left a largeish TODO
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<dbotton>
If I have a project in quicklisp and also have same project checked out in say my ~/common-lisp directory - which one is used when I do (ql:quicklisp :xxx)
<phoe>
the local-projects one
<phoe>
you can also (asdf:system-source-directory :phoe-toolbox)
<phoe>
and check out for yourself
<dbotton>
Ok and is there a way to easily get the directory (in lisp) of the location a project was installed from quicklisp
<phoe>
is that what you are looking for? in this case I have pulled alexandria from QL
<dbotton>
Yes that would work
<pranavats>
Quicklisp has `where-is-system` but I doubt if it's much different from asdf's system-source-directory.
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<jeosol>
Good morning!
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<jeosol>
@styl
<jeosol>
stylewarning:?
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<Xach>
I believe where-is-system predates system-source-directory.
<Xach>
they do the same thing
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<dbotton>
Thanks
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<dbotton>
That fixed up all, so now can have clog find itself and set directories for tutorials correctly etc for next quicklisp release
<dbotton>
thanks
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<Xach>
dbotton: asdf:system-relative-pathname can be useful
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<Xach>
it's not without problems
<dbotton>
Ill look it up
<dbotton>
I think though once I know where project is all good
<dbotton>
Most people won't use that directory for file anyways for their own projects
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<Xach>
attila_lendvai: a PR is good in this case
<attila_lendvai>
Xach, good, then i've opened one. note that i'll probably convert more in a couple of days, so if it's not urgent for you, then i'll probably update that PR
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<Xach>
attila_lendvai: there are several weeks to go
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<heisig>
--core
<heisig>
Oops.
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<Josh_2>
Do any distributions do anything with the :size keyword given to defpackage?
<Bike>
looks like sbcl does.
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<phoe>
sbcl does for sure
<Bike>
it uses it as the size to the uh... some kind of special hash table implementation the package uses.
<easye>
ABCL processes :size, but ignores it.
<phoe>
CCL does it the same as SBCL
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