jackdaniel changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp> <https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp> <http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/> | offtopic --> #lispcafe
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<johnjay> so from what i've read, scheme R7RS is split into a small and large language right
<johnjay> how comparable to CL will the large one be?
<waleee-cl> the only scheme with a object system is guile afaik, and that's an extension
<waleee-cl> *an
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<stargazesparkle> I tried scheme but found Common Lisp to be a more... Complete? Language
<stargazesparkle> A more useable one for sure
<stargazesparkle> I tried racket and chicken scheme for reference
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<ldbeth> goodd morning
<stargazesparkle> Good evening
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<contrapunctus> waleee-cl: CHICKEN has a bunch of object systems too, for sake of information.
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<waleee-cl> contrapunctus: ah, ok. I only skimmed their page
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<waleee-cl> contrapunctus: hm, but it's not listed as a feature
<waleee-cl> ah, there it was: https://wiki.call-cc.org/records-and-oop
<waleee-cl> kind of
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<waleee-cl> hm, but it doesn't seem to be listed as a feature
<waleee-cl> ^ blame that on irccloud
<contrapunctus> waleee-cl: they're extensions, as you say - http://eggs.call-cc.org/5/#oop
<contrapunctus> Hm, there were more in v4 - http://eggs.call-cc.org/4/#oop
<waleee-cl> unrelated; chicken has an awesome logo
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<beach> Good morning everyone!
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<fiddlerwoaroof> morning beach
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<solideogloria[m]> does anyone here use rainbow-delimeters ?
<solideogloria[m]> in emacs
<fiddlerwoaroof> Yes
<oni-on-ion> yes
<fiddlerwoaroof> And highlight-parentheses
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<oni-on-ion> dont have that, but they are highlighted matching (paredit, slime )
<fiddlerwoaroof> highlight-parentheses gives a special face to the parens around the current form
<fiddlerwoaroof> It's moderately useful when you have complicated code
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<fiddlerwoaroof> For a "two newlines" string literal, would people prefer #.(format nil "~%~%") or #.(coerce '(#1=#\newline #1#) 'string)?
<fiddlerwoaroof> Or, am I missing an obvious (one-line) way to represent this?
<aeth> format nil might be the way to go
<oni-on-ion> #| ?
<aeth> but ~%~% is fairly unusual and ~2% is technically possible, too iirc
<fiddlerwoaroof> I forgot that
<aeth> right, because it's rare to do this
<oni-on-ion> doesn't parser append/concat the newlines
<oni-on-ion> ""\n ""\n ..
<aeth> personally, if I'm in a ~%~% situation I usually just TERPRI the second ~% instead, for clarity
<aeth> but that won't really work here because you're doing FORMAT NIL
<fiddlerwoaroof> O, I need a _string literal_
<fiddlerwoaroof> So, there's a #.(...)
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<oni-on-ion> um then what are quotes even for ?
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<fiddlerwoaroof> The problem with quotes is that I need to use one line of vertical space per newline in the string
<fiddlerwoaroof> I also, personally, find multiline double-quoted strings really ugly
<fiddlerwoaroof> The nice thing about #. is that you can have the reader run arbitrary lisp and put arbitrary objects into the read value.
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<oni-on-ion> newline is new line...
<oni-on-ion> sounds otherwise like you know what you are doing. how come asking ?
<fiddlerwoaroof> I was wondering if I was missing an obvious way to do this, without adding extra line breaks to my code
<fiddlerwoaroof> #.(format nil "~2%") reads the best to me
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<fiddlerwoaroof> A little thing I've been working on, to make data manipulation a bit more ergonomic in CL
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<fiddlerwoaroof> Is there something weird about the bindings of variables in (LOOP FOR VAR IN ...)?
<fiddlerwoaroof> It looks like sbcl binds the variable with dynamic scope
<phoe> no, you close over it
<phoe> forming closures over loop variables is a common headache in lisp programmers
<phoe> heisig can attest to it
<fiddlerwoaroof> ugh
<fiddlerwoaroof> So, I have to like (let ((tmp var)) (lambda () ...))?
<fiddlerwoaroof> Hmm, I guess this makes sense
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<fiddlerwoaroof> The loop SETQ one binding, rather than shadowing on each iteration
<fiddlerwoaroof> Mental model adjusted...
<moon-child> if all you're doing is iterating over a single list, it might be easier to mapcar
<fiddlerwoaroof> I'm a bit surprised it took me this long to discover this
<fiddlerwoaroof> This is a simplified sample
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<h4ck3r9696> How do I get started with threading in Common Lisp? I read the CL cookbook's article, but I find it very brief and hard to understand. For example, how do I write to *standard-output* from a thread without getting wierd behavior and duplicating text? I tried to use a lock every time I use format, but that didn't work.
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<beach> You shouldn't get any duplicated text.
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<beach> And you don't need locks unless you need mutual exclusion for some resource.
<phoe> a stream might be such a resource
<phoe> AFAIR e.g. CCL streams are not threadsafe by default, two streams cannot write to a stream at the same time
<beach> But we haven't been told it is (yet).
<phoe> oh, yes; I'm extrapolating
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<h4ck3r9696> CL-USER> (hello-from-thread)
<h4ck3r9696> Hello, world
<h4ck3r9696> NIL
<h4ck3r9696> CL-USER> (hello-from-thread)
<h4ck3r9696> Hello, world
<h4ck3r9696> Hello, world
<h4ck3r9696> NIL
<h4ck3r9696> I'm getting this
<h4ck3r9696> randomly
<beach> You would have to paste your code somewhere. It is not clear what the constellation of threads is.
<h4ck3r9696> It's just the tutorial from the CL cookbook
<ck_> do you mean the website or the 'recipes' book?
<ck_> maybe paste a link
<h4ck3r9696> this is the code for hello-from-thread https://pastebin.com/3Xxgv2H6
<ck_> and is this the tutorial you mean? https://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook/process.html (C-f "print a message onto the top level")
<h4ck3r9696> yes, that's the one
<phoe> hmmm
<phoe> cannot reproduce... welcome to multithreading issues
<beach> I can't reproduce either.
<h4ck3r9696> I'm using SLY and SBCL
<h4ck3r9696> this is what happends when I try to run it : https://pastebin.com/GpfdLfQ2
<ck_> maybe you could compare your settings? I know phoe and beach turn the safety knobs all the way up, for example
<Nilby> It's normal. Ya'll who run in slime don't see it.
<h4ck3r9696> I think it's a sly problem, because it doesn't happend in the terminal
<beach> Oh?
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<Nilby> When a thread flushes the buffer and there's output from the other thread in unflushed in there, it get's double output.
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<h4ck3r9696> You mean I should switch to slime?
<phoe> !
<phoe> no
<phoe> add (finish-output s) after the FORMAT call
<phoe> check if it still occurs
<h4ck3r9696> yes
<phoe> hm
<phoe> Nilby: still sounds like a very weird thing if it occurs after (format s ...) (finish-output s)
<Nilby> Even add finish-output exacerbates it sometimes.
<phoe> I mean, this sounds bugworthy for me - the role of finish-output is meant to flush the stream
<phoe> and if it doesn't, then it should
<Nilby> It does.
<phoe> then there should be no double output because the first line should have already been flushed
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<Nilby> It's just that there's output from multiple threads in there if you don't make multiple stram buffers somehow.
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<h4ck3r9696> Well, guess i'll have double output. It doesn't really matter anyway because i'll add a GUI soon
<Nilby> I experience it all the time since I run stuff directly in a terminal. But it's not hard mitigate. Also, the normal flushing in sbcl &
<phoe> in the terminal, yes
<phoe> but why does slime get it right and sly doesn't?
<phoe> in terminal it's normal when multiple threads write to a single stdout without locking
<Nilby> Slime buffers output of multiple threads for you.
<phoe> and sly ones don't?
<Nilby> I don't know, but it probably does.
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<Nilby> Also the stream flushing behaviour varies quite a bit between implementations.
<phoe> hmmmmmmmm
* fiddlerwoaroof thinks this is a good reason to use SLIME
<Nilby> This gives pretty random results, and worse when you put a finish-output afger the print: (progn (bt:make-thread (lambda () (dotimes (i 50) (print i) (sleep .1)))) (bt:make-thread (lambda () (dotimes (i 50) (print i) (sleep .1)))))
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<phoe> yes, I can reproduce it
<Nilby> One easy way to have slightly more consistent output is make a new stream per thread, e.g. https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2235#2235
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<Nilby> You can get really messed up if you're a kook like me doing a tui with many threads writing & inputting.
<phoe> yes
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<fiddlerwoaroof> Nilby: I contributed https://github.com/slime/slime/blob/master/contrib/slime-buffer-streams.el that might help this sort of problem
<fiddlerwoaroof> Basically, you create a stream and emacs creates a corresponding buffer
<fiddlerwoaroof> I don't think it's been ported to sly, but it's a bit cleaner for some things (DRKMA:*HEADER-OUTPUT-STREAM*, for example) than just using *standard-output* for everything
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<Nilby> fiddlerwoaroof: Thanks. That seems quite useful, especially for network stuff. Interactive terminal stuff must take another path though.
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<v3ga> hmm, after Common LISP: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation should I read Let over Lambda or Land of Lisp?
<beach> I think you should read PCL.
<beach> minion: Please tell v3ga about PCL.
<minion> v3ga: please look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
<v3ga> beach: Ok, I have that too on my shelf. Darn. so PCL > Land of Lisp.
<beach> I am not sure of either of the LoL books.
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<beach> I would do PCL, then PAIP.
<v3ga> beach: lol, ok. I have that as well. I actually came across a copy for a good price and grabbed it but I haven't touched it yet.
<beach> Others here may have a different opinion, of course.
<Nilby> it depends on your reaction to the words "Grand Theft Wumpus"
<v3ga> Nilby: say what? =P
<v3ga> that must be land over lisp. Silliness is fine as well.
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<Nilby> it's a thing in LoL
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<phoe> IMO Let over Lambda should be read after Graham's On Lisp
<phoe> Anonymous__: this seems like #scheme
<Anonymous__> can someone check if i defined let and let* correctly in terms of lambda?
<Anonymous__> In fact is scheme
<phoe> #lisp is a place full of Common Lisp programmers
<phoe> as it's dedicated to Common Lisp
<Anonymous__> Understood, i will give a try on #scheme
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<shka_> good evening
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<charles`> Hello
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<travv0> Hello
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<frodef> hi
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<charles`> Has anyone used usocket and needed to detect a close? is a timer the best solution?
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<johnjay> solideogloria[m]: i used rainbow parens but idt they are necessary. I wrote my own extension that improves paren matching in emacs by going one level deeper
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<johnjay> so it just highlights the current paren and all the children in the sexp. works pretty well
<johnjay> you should use the indentation in emacs to get the most information first imo
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<fiddlerwoaroof> Does anyone know of a RFC822 email parser?
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<fiddlerwoaroof> I found one on Cliki, but its email address parser was really slow
<fiddlerwoaroof> It uses one giant cl-ppcre regex to parse email addresses, probably a good test case for performance improvements to CL-PPCRE :)
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<johnjay> is there a common lisp email server you mean?
<johnjay> oh its the email format
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<fiddlerwoaroof> Yeah
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<fiddlerwoaroof> I just realized mel-base might have an ok one...
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<reb``````> OK, I'm curious. Why do you want some way of validating or parsing email addresses?
<fiddlerwoaroof> reb``````: well, I've been working on a little utility for turning an NNTP group into a folder full of emails
<fiddlerwoaroof> And I wanted to add the ability to do some email -> HTML stuff
<fiddlerwoaroof> Like that mailing list archive that just shut down its web interface...
<reb``````> ... but why do you want to parse or validate email addresses?
<fiddlerwoaroof> I want to parse the headers out of the email and do interesting things with them
<fiddlerwoaroof> RFC822 is the email format
<reb``````> Ah, you want to parse email headers. That makes more sense.
<fiddlerwoaroof> It includes a spec for email addresses
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<ralt> fiddlerwoaroof: don't you mostly care about the comma?
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