jackdaniel changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp> <https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp> <http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/> | offtopic --> #lispcafe
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<lotuseater> if i type in SLIME (defmethod initialize-instance ...) there are shown at the bottom many keywords, what exactly affects that?
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<Bike> i think slime just shows all keywords that are accepted by any initialize-instance method. possibly slot initargs as well?
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<seok> if I compile a lisp program and give it to someone else, can they try to figure out what objects are internally by reading memory?
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<Bike> Sure. Won't be easy though.
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<seok> oh :o
<seok> so i probably shouldnt make a variable with my ssn as string, compile, then ship it?
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<Bike> i don't think that's a good idea regardless of what programming language you're using, no
<Alfr> seok, what problem are you trying to solve? Though it likely is better suited for the cafe.
<edgar-rft> seok: hat sounds like a bad idea in *any* programming language, not only Lisp
<shinohai> lol k
<seok> uh ok
<seok> idk im looking to ship a client with sensitive data
<seok> wondering if theres a good way to do this
<Bike> Same stuff you'd usually use to secure data. Encryption and so on.
<seok> but if the client is shipped with encrypted variable, it would be have to be shipped with the key too
<seok> in that case there's no point eh?
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<Bike> "and so on" includes the security practices surrounding such things
<seok> is that a book
<Bike> no
<Alfr> seok, homomorphic encryption and that what you ship must only operate on the blobs. But I don't know of any efficient scheme or even if what you want to do is possible with what little we currently have.
<Bike> of course we have efficient ways to send data securely
<Bike> you could do some key exchange to establish a secure channel and then send your ssn or whatever that way
<seok> yeah ssn was a dummy example xd
<Bike> but this isn't really a lisp specific topic
<seok> sorry :x i thought there might be a compile specific solution
<seok> guess not
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<tinga> Hi. How do I bind a value in the top level of a package, so that changes to the code (reloading the file) can have it be a different value?
<tinga> (defconstant foo 123) in SBCL will not allow foo to be defined anything else on subsequent loads.
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<aeth> tinga: defparameter or defvar
<tinga> I feel like I'd be OK with setf not working on foo. There's defparameter for those, after all. But the SBCL behaviour seems to make it impossible to develop the program without a restart?
<tinga> Ah, didn't know about defvar
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<tinga> Somehow ANSI Common Lisp decides to only introduce defvar way later.
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<tinga> Why is this false? I thought `equal` does structural equality?: (equal (make-array '(2 3) :initial-element "hi") (make-array '(2 3) :initial-element "hi"))
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<tinga> same for (equal (vector 1) (vector 1))
<Alfr> tinga, it behaves like eq for arrays, except strings and bit-vectors.
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<tinga> Why?
<Alfr> What why? The spec simply says so.
<tinga> Why as in what's the reasoning behind it, what is it good for?
<Alfr> tinga, have a look at equalp, tough it's not case sensitive for string. If that doesn't fit your bill, simply write your own predicate.
<tinga> k, thanks
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<tinga> How do I name variables (function arguments) that are never used? SBCL warns me even if I prefix them with an underscore.
<Bike> you should use an ignore declaration.
<Bike> (defun foo (x) (declare (ignore x)) nil)
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<beach> Good morning everyone!
<charles`> Good morning to beach
<pfdietz> Or an ignorable declaration.   Or, if it's a required parameter to a method, a T specializer.
<pfdietz> (defmethod foo ((x C) (y t)) x) ;; no warning
<pfdietz> (defmethod foo ((x C) y) x) ;; warning
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<beach> tinga: The question about the equality predicates comes up regularly. The short answer is that there is no universal solution and Common Lisp is proposing a few that are frequently used. But in the general case, you need to come up with your own.
<tinga> Thanks
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<equwal> Good morning!
<beach> Hello equwal.
<tinga> OK. I guess come up with your own would make most sence via CLOS; I was hoping for some standard protocol.
<tinga> sense
<beach> tinga: I suggest you read Kent Pitmans page on copying and equality.
<tinga> OK thanks, will have a look
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<equwal> I'm not familiar with this, does it have a title?
<beach> Let me look...
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<equwal> That has a great url, in my opinion, though it needs a slightly different spelling
<tinga> Nice discussion here, too: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2573944
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<equwal> I hearby declare 'equwal' the name of the 'correct' general equality test.
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<beach> Baker is making a lot of strange claims in the first paragraph there.
<beach> For one thing, he is using the wrong terminology when he says "call by value".
<beach> And I don't think his suggestion will resolve the issue of multiple equality predicates.
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<astronavt> maybe a silly question, but: i just did `ros install qlot`. now what? does roswell have its own "bin" dir that i need to add to my PATH?
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<astronavt> ah it's under ~/.roswell/bin
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<VincentVega> Hmm, why does closer-mop:slot-definition-writers accept only a direct-slot-definition as an argument? What if I have a derived class and want to see writers for an inherited slot?
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<jmercouris> Hi everyone, I'm having a bit of an issue with GIR
<jmercouris> I don't understand why it cannot find that which exists, do I hvae the repository wrong? the signature wrong?
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<jmercouris> VincentVega: perhaps you will have to go up the inheritance tree and query the object which has the slot itself
<jmercouris> s/object/class
<jmercouris> well I assume classes are also objects?
<jmercouris> I don't see why they wouldn't be...
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<VincentVega> jmercouris: well, that could be a solution, but I am wondering what's the reason for this, because it's weird to see this work
<VincentVega> (c2mop:slot-definition-writers (first (c2mop:class-direct-slots (find-class class-name))))
<VincentVega> but not this
<VincentVega> (c2mop:slot-definition-writers (first (c2mop:class-slots (find-class class-name))))
<jmercouris> I'm not sure what the rationale behind it is I am afraid
<jmercouris> maybe the slots are referenced to the original object or something
<jmercouris> s/object/class
<jmercouris> and that way when you change something in a inherited class it updates in its descendants
<jmercouris> purely a guess of course
<jmercouris> my other guess is that this behavior is due to an implementation detail of CLOS within most implementations
<VincentVega> hmmm
<VincentVega> but walking up the inheritence tree won't give me the effective list of writers/readers of the derived class unless I manually merge and that's a bother
<jmercouris> VincentVega: what is your ultimate goal in doing this
<jmercouris> perhaps we can solve it another way
<VincentVega> I am generating :before methods for writers of those slots which invalidate cache of other slots
<jmercouris> hmmm
<jmercouris> I don't think there is another way
<jmercouris> because you need have access to all writers
<VincentVega> yeah, I gotta have the wiretrs : )
<jmercouris> maybe you could make an instance of an object and inspect that more easily than the classes
<jmercouris> and then at runtime generate the new methods
<VincentVega> i don't think it would even have to be runtime w/ eval-when :compile-toplevel, right?
<VincentVega> but I will look for a more direct approach first
<jmercouris> good luck, hopefully someone else has better ideas than me
<VincentVega> thanks anyway : )
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<mfiano> jmercouris: I think you have a slight mistake
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<devon> pjb: Earlier you mentioned a C to CL compiler…
<mfiano> Ignore me. I would dig into GIR's hash table and see what it expects
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<jmercouris> mfiano: that is what I am doing, but it is not exactly the most cooperative interface...
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<mfiano> I feel your pain. Just looking at those APIs reminds me why I declined the offer...
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<slyrus> shka_: how about just vellum:table instead of vellum:to-table?
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<VincentVega> Guys, why does ,@expr doesn't want to compile here? https://pastebin.com/gqBLSd7N
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<Bike> have you tried writing out what you want without using backquote? maybe that would make it more obvious.
<Bike> i'm not sure what you want here, though.
<Bike> i think the problem is that commas refer to the most recent backquote, and `,@expr obviously doesn't make sense on its own.
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<VincentVega> I am writing a macro-writing macro and that's what I figured the problem distills to.
<pranavats> VincentVega: Comma-at must occur within a sequence. What it does is that it splices a list into a sequence. When you write `,@expr there is nowhere to splice the value of expr.
<Bike> what would `,@foo do? i mean like what would (let ((x '(1 2 3))) `,@x) evaluate to?
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<VincentVega> Bike: well I would expect `(f ,`,@expr) to simplify to `(f ,@expr), there's a comma before the backtick
<VincentVega> but I am obviously messing up the order in which these things simplify
<aeth> VincentVega: if you have to nest multiple `s, don't do it directly imo. Either use a FLET or write a separate DEFUN that you call from inside of the DEFMACRO (if the latter, it needs to be in another file or in an EVAL-WHEN, though)
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<VincentVega> aeth: yeah, I have some nested backticks. OK, that sounds sensible.
<alandipert> weird that `,@'(1 2 3) works fine
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<alandipert> ...for some definition of "works"
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<pranavats> alandipert: I get the same error (not a well formed backquote expression) with the example you gave.
<alandipert> pranavats ah, my fault, i was accidentally in elisp. in sbcl, same error
<VincentVega> pranavats: ok, yes, that makes sense. But I wonder why `(f ,`,@expr) just wouldn't simplify to the working `(f ,@expr) _before_ splicing
<VincentVega> because it does without the at symbol
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<VincentVega> Bike: (let ((x '(1 2 3))) `,@x) to (let ((x '(1 2 3))) 1 2 3)?
<Bike> i think you are confusing evaluation times. i mean, you can imagine (let ((x (foo))) `,@x) where foo is some function
<VincentVega> then it would have to be a function available at compile time? : D
<pranavats> VincentVega: I don't know. That is one of the two restrictions on comma-at in On Lisp. One might look at their implementations though...
<VincentVega> pranavats: I should probably reread that part. I am cool with an flet though, like aeth suggested, wouldn't look as hairy either.
<pranavats> VincentVega: Sure. It's on printed page no. 87, on On Lisp.
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<VincentVega> pranavats: thanks : )
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<brandflake11> Hey all, is there a special notation in lisp to include a list as one of the arguments of defun?
<Xach> brandflake11: the lambda list is usually a list. and the name can be (setf <something>) for setf functions.
<Xach> brandflake11: but i am not sure if that is what you mean
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<brandflake11> So I want to do this:
<brandflake11> (defun note-arp (repetitions time-scale duration amplitude note-list)
<brandflake11> Where note-list is always a list in the function
<Xach> brandflake11: ok
<Xach> what you wrote will do that so far, but you want more?
<brandflake11> But, when I try to run the function, I get an error of the list included is not of type real
<brandflake11> Xach: Okay, so what I did will work for defun?
<Xach> brandflake11: sure.
<Xach> brandflake11: and it will take exactly 5 arguments, the last of which must be a list.
<Xach> brandflake11: but did you mean you wanted to slurp up all the trailing arguments after the fourth into a list?
<brandflake11> Xach: Ahh, okay, it must be a different issue then. Thanks so much!
<brandflake11> Xach: No, I wanted that argument to specifically mean a list
<Xach> Ok
<Xach> brandflake11: in a situation like this it would be helpful to see the code, and how you called the function, and the exact error you got when you called it
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<brandflake11> Xach: Okay, I didn't want to take advantage of the great help here, but I will put it on pastebin really quick!
<Xach> how else are we to grow new lisp experts and dominate the world but through helping people understand things?
<brandflake11> Xach: Thanks! :) Here is the link https://pastebin.com/U64757PS
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<brandflake11> I define the function with defun, and when I run the second (events) function, it gives me the error of '(60 61 62) not being of type real
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<Xach> Hmm, I don't recognize those functions. what is PROCESS?
<brandflake11> Xach: Oh, by the way, this is common music
<Xach> Is it similar to LOOP?
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<brandflake11> Xach: Process is like loop, but helps with realtime processing of midi and audio data.
<brandflake11> Xach: Yes, exactly, in fact you could replace it with loop
<Xach> with LOOP, "for i from 0 to <x>", <x> should be an integer, not a list.
<brandflake11> Xach: Oh, so it's an error in my loop!
<Xach> If you wanted to loop once for each item in the list, it would be someting like "from i below (length note-list)"
<Xach> but if you want to use an element and keep a counter, it would be (loop for i from 0 for note in note-list ...)
<Xach> I don't know if that maps to PROCESS directly, though.
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<brandflake11> Xach: It works, thanks so much!
<brandflake11> Xach: Do you have any recommendation of becoming an expert at the (loop) function? It's syntax really gets to me sometimes!
<Xach> brandflake11: the section in Practical Common Lisp is pretty good.
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<Xach> brandflake11: i usually stick to a small number of simple components and switch to something different when it gets very complex
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<brandflake11> Xach: I'll look into that!
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<brandflake11> Xach: For loop, I try to just make C++ loop equivalents, since I'm a bit familiar with that, but I always get tripped up with the loop syntax being so different to lisp's
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<Xach> I think that's something to outgrow as you understand how to think directly in terms of LOOP.
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<brandflake11> Xach: Thanks so much for the advice and programming help!
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<pranavats> brandflake11: There are other iteration constructs in CL, —iterate and Series, to name just two—which are more lispier.
<Xach> I haven't seen those used very much, but some people really like them.
<brandflake11> pranavats: Are they part of a package? I don't seem to have it in my CL setup
<Bike> those are not in the standard library, no
<pranavats> Yes. Their packages are in quicklisp by the same name.
<pranavats> I mean, systems.
<brandflake11> pranavats: Ah, okay. I'll check them out later.
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<aeth> brandflake11: LOOP's a bit weird because it accepts any package for its symbols, but that means that you can use keywords. So e.g. (loop :for i :from 0 :repeat 3 :do (print i))
<aeth> I personally find that that makes it harder to make certain kinds of mistakes
<aeth> It almost becomes like a plist. Almost. There are a few constructs where LOOP expects multiple keywords in a row, and OF-TYPE is optional for certain kinds of types (but only a few, so I always use the long form)
<aeth> (And, of course, if it was really made up of plists, order wouldn't matter and you couldn't have duplicates.)
<brandflake11> aeth: What do you mean by it accepts any package for its symbols? I'm not familiar with plist.
<aeth> brandflake11: a plist is something like '(:foo 42 :bar 43 :baz 44)
<aeth> It's very natural and Lispy and shows up all of the time, e.g. keyword arguments are plist tails
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<aeth> brandflake11: By "accepts any package" I mean (loop repeat 3) and (loop :repeat 3) both work, it doesn't care about the package the symbol is in. Almost every other macro will care. Third party macros typically use keywords.
<aeth> (loop your-package::repeat 3) also works, which is probably what LOOP is doing because CL:REPEAT isn't a symbol
<aeth> Packages are just namespaces for symbols
<brandflake11> aeth: I see. That was a lot for me, so I am going to save this for later to see if I can come back and understand this better later. :) It's cool that you can use keywords like that in loop, I may use that to make it clearer for me!
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<brandflake11> aeth: And thanks for telling me about plists. That is very useful!
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<dbotton> I have been using a deftype of keywords for enums, but curious is there a better or more official way?
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<frodef> dbotton: first question is, what do you need an "enum" for?
<dbotton> Set of valid symbolic values
<dbotton> For a function or slot etc
<VincentVega> dbotton: an aside, but with serapeum  you can have compile-time checks for those https://github.com/ruricolist/serapeum#example-enums
<dbotton> For example - text-direction could be ltr or rtl
<frodef> so you have the symbols... what do you need the enum for?
<dbotton> I want to say these are the only valid symbols
<frodef> so that's the type (member ...)
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<dbotton> VincentVega will take a look in a bit
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<dbotton> That is what I am doing now frodef
<dbotton> (deftype text-direction () '(member :ltr :rtl))
<frodef> dbotton: right.. I probably don't quite understand the question, then. There's no more "official way" than (member ..), and I can't really think of anything more succinct.
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<dbotton> Ok thanks
<frodef> dbotton: note that you don't have to name the type, unless it's being used "all over" I'd say that (member :ltr :rtl) is quite readable as it is.
<frodef> s/name/deftype
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<dbotton> That is good to know, thanks
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<Josh_2> Joined IRC to get help with a problem, as I joined I solved my problem :P
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<dbotton> Is there a way to hint to slime/emacs that a certain deftype is the ideal parameter so auto complete would work for it?
<aeth> dbotton: two kinds of enums... the enum equivalent in an idiomatic way are basically member types. The other kind of enum is a mapping of symbol->number, which can be done with e.g. a function with an ECASE of keyword->number. These are not mutually exclusive, of course, although the language won't check to make sure every branch in the ECASE is covered.
<aeth> dbotton: I usually just do MEMBER types, but technically, the more correct way is probably '(and keyword (member ...)
<aeth> )
<aeth> Especially for long lists.
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<aeth> If something's not a keyword, that will rule it out much faster, unless the implementation optimizes member types
<dbotton> Nice
<aeth> There are some other enums you could encounter, e.g. CFFI enums
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<Bike> putting in an (and keyword ...) won't speed anything up if the implementation doesn't simplify types somehow, and if it doesn't simplify types somehow type tests are probably going to be slow regardless
<Bike> also even assuming the keyword type is checked first, for a member of the type it'll have to check a member anyway, so you'd just be speeding up testing on nonmebers at the expense of testing on members
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<aeth> Bike: So it's a bad idiom?
<aeth> Because it seems about 50/50 when I see this kind of DEFTYPE
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<Bike> seems pointless to me
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<Bike> on sbcl it has no effect on typep speed that i can see, because it reduces (and keyword (member ...)) to (member ...) if all the objects are keywords
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<aeth> ah
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<frodef> in general probably not a good idea to think of typespecs as procedures.
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<Alfr_> Isn't it possible to reduce every (and type-spec (member ..)) to (member ..) simply by only retaining the objects o which satisfy (typep o type-spec)? Or am I missing something here?
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<frodef> Alfr_: in principle I would think yes.
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<aeth> Alfr_: Also, I think that technically every type can become a MEMBER type because everything's finite...
<aeth> I guess excluding SATISFIES
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<aeth> Oh, the conses are infinite...
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<Bike> and any class you can make fresh instances of, so standard objects, hash tables, restarts, whatever
<Bike> but yes, you can collapse restart types like that pretty easily
<Bike> member types
<Bike> doy
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