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<charles`>
Can someone help me understand ~/.cache/common-lisp/ ? Does that allow me to compile a system once, then next time I load it, asdf will just load the already compiled version?
<waleee-cl>
charles`: yup
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<charles`>
So should I be able to use quicklisp to install a system, then restart lisp, then load using asdf without quicklisp or recompilation?
<aeth>
That sounds right, but you could test it.
<aeth>
For the most part, Quicklisp is used because it will download something if it hasn't already been download it.
<Xach>
charles`: there's a catch, though
<aeth>
s/hasn't already been downloaded it/hasn't already been downloaded/
<Xach>
charles`: if you don't load quicklisp at all, it's possible that the directory it's found in is not known to asdf, and it won't necessarily load
<Xach>
charles`: but if quicklisp is loaded, asdf will find it and load it
<charles`>
I can see the compiled files in ~/.cache/common-lisp/
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<charles`>
Do I need to configure asdf to look at ~/.cache to find them? is ~/.cache an asdf thing or quicklisp thing. I can't find ~/.cache in asdf manual
<Xach>
charles`: ~/.cache/common-lisp/ is an asdf thing.
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<charles`>
I see, I found it
<aeth>
It should be something along the lines of (uiop:merge-pathnames* #P"common-lisp/" (uiop:xdg-config-home))
<Xach>
It is in the manual
<aeth>
In practice, ~/.cache/common-lisp/ except on Windows
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<charles`>
If my compiled files are in cache, why does asdf still need quicklisp to find them? It can find the main project, but can't find the systems that were pulled in by quicklisp (but are still in cache)
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<aeth>
charles`: My guess is Quicklisp adds some directories, like ~/quicklisp/local-projects/, that aren't default directories in ASDF.
<Xach>
There's no need to guess.
<Xach>
Finding systems to load, and loading their cached compiled fasls, are very distinct operations.
<Xach>
If the system cannot be found, its cached fasls cannot be loaded.
<Xach>
Quicklisp augments "find a system" part when it is loaded.
<charles`>
so I need to keep the .asd files around even if the actual code i already compiled
<Xach>
charles`: yes, but there are exceptions there too, like monofasls. that gets into some territory i don't know much about.
<Alfr>
charles`, you'll likely also need to keep whole system around, e.g. sbcl will refuse to load fasls not output with the exact same build.
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<charles`>
I'm not using sbcl :)
<charles`>
I'm interested in this monofasl business
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<Xach>
charles`: the output is a single file you can load and your whole system is loaded.
<charles`>
including, dependency systems?
<charles`>
from the manual, it seems so
<Xach>
that's how i understand it
<charles`>
This is awsome, CL is just perfect
<Alfr>
charles`, you want monolithic-compile-bundle-op I think. You can also dump a (executable) image of a loaded system, if you prefer that.
<charles`>
Yes, I think so
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<Alfr>
s|a loaded system|loaded systems and with a custom entry point/function|
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<emaczen>
What is the state of OSX development with CCL?
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<dbotton>
What is the term used in the Lisp world for an interface in lisp for a c api? In the Ada world we call it a binding for example a binding to the win32 api.
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<Xach>
dbotton: it's also called a binding
<dbotton>
Thanks
<plisp>
what planet do you think we're from ;)
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<dbotton>
Land of lisp
<Alfr>
dbotton, also called a foreign function interface, covering more than only functions though.
<dbotton>
Xach what is considered the appropriate level of stability for a project to be in quickslip?
<Xach>
dbotton: it should compile
<Xach>
i do not reject anything on quality or maturity or stability grounds. if you want it to be part of quicklisp, and it builds, it will very likely become part of quicklisp.
<Alfr>
plisp, isn't planet lisp a blog?
<Xach>
there are a few exceptions but they are uncommon
<Xach>
oh, it also should not be single-implementation
<Xach>
and the license must permit redistribution as quicklisp does
<Xach>
"in the manner" quicklisp does, that is
<dbotton>
So far I am checking my clog project against ecl and sbcl
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<plisp>
Alfr: looks like it is
<Xach>
dbotton: what does clog do?
<dbotton>
It is is a gui and web framework
<dbotton>
You program the web in a VB style of programing
<Xach>
if it's really hard for me to install prerequisite foreign libraries that can be a stumbling block
<dbotton>
Everything is done with websockets
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<dbotton>
Only clack is needed
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<dbotton>
Since it is a "live" connection to a browser window (or a browser control say in an Xcode project on Mac etc)
<dbotton>
It replaces the need for most gui and web work frameworks
<dbotton>
I have used the Ada version I wrote for years
<dbotton>
For gui's to embedded systems, websites etc
<Xach>
cool
<dbotton>
http://office.botton.com:8080 wrote a game demo I have up for the moment - all code is LISP not html or javascript
<dbotton>
That tutorial uses mouse and touch events
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<charles`>
interesting, what http server are you using for clack websocket-driver
<charles`>
looks like hunchentoot?
<dbotton>
yes
<charles`>
I had trouble with that on chrome with large messages.
<dbotton>
Working well in my tests so far, clog-connections is fairly decoupled, so should be easy to switch
<dbotton>
Could by since the msgs I send are tiny
<dbotton>
If have suggestions always open to try other things later
<charles`>
Will your messages be tiny if the user wants to upload a file?
<dbotton>
I would use http for that not websockets
<charles`>
wise choice
<dbotton>
In the Ada version I have a long-post version not using websockets at all
<dbotton>
Even an automatic fall back if websockets not available
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<dbotton>
(Once upon a time that was the case)
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<dbotton>
You should already with what is there in the CLOG project be able to write a Web App, use ecl to embedded in an Android app and iOS using a browser control, then use sbcl or another to take the same app and embed in an Xcode project, and MS “new” app whatever they call them this month, and a GTK app with a webkit window on Linux.
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<asarch>
One stupid question: how do you open a binary file with WITH-OPEN-FILE?
<asarch>
:element-type '(unsigned-byte 8)?
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<earenndil>
yeah
earenndil is now known as moon-child
<moon-child>
if you just want everything in a vector: (with-open-file (fp fn :direction :input :if-does-not-exist :error :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8)) (let ((buf (make-array (file-length fp) :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8)))) (read-sequence buf fp) buf))
<loke[m]>
moon-child: What you said is correct, but the idea of using FILE-LENGTH to determine the amount of data to read is problematic.
<loke[m]>
The only use of FILE-LENGTH should be for display purposes.
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<asarch>
Bingo! And how do you write binary data into it? WRITE? PRINT? FORMAT?
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<moon-child>
loke[m]: what's wrong with using file-length for that purpose? And what would be better?
<pillton>
asarch: write-sequence
<asarch>
Thank you!
<asarch>
:-)
<loke[m]>
moon-child: You read until the call to READ-SEQUENCE returns an end of file status.
<loke[m]>
You can use FILE-LENGTH to determine the initial size of the array, then make the array adjustable, and read until there is nothing else to read.
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
<Oladon>
In case anyone has lost the unlocking devices for their automobile, I just found them in my code. :)
<Oladon>
Morning, beach!
<emaczen>
morning beach
<moon-child>
loke[m]: oh yea fair enough
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<asarch>
I'm doing a small web server with Caveman2 in order to send files from my cellphone to my laptop, and in the POST request, the content of the file is a type of RAW-BODY: #<CIRCULAR-STREAMS:CIRCULAR-INPUT-STREAM {1007C409E3}>, how could I send it to a WRITE-SEQUENCE?
<asarch>
I cannot find the CIRCULAR-INPUT-STREAM function
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<loke[m]>
If you want to copy an input stream to an output stream, you can use UIOP:COPY-STREAM-TO-STREAM.
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<asarch>
Ok
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<v3ga>
so are sly-stickers useful when debugging? or whats the best way to go about stepping through a function or procedure with sbcl/sly?
<charles`>
you can place a sticker to "set a breakpoint" and enable break on stickers
<charles`>
then it will break when it reaches your sticker without having to add (break) and recompile
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<v3ga>
charles`: ahh ok, I see now. that's how they're used... ok i'll write something longer and play with it
<charles`>
I really wish you could start single stepping after encountering a break, but I haven't figured that out yet
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<loke[m]>
charles` you can. Just press s in SLIME.
<v3ga>
also with step....i'm using the gentle introduction to symbolic comp book. they're using a different lisp implementation but surrounding a function with (step ...) doesn't give the same feedback as the book.
<v3ga>
thats really what I was looking for when I discovered stickers
<charles`>
when, I do that it steps into some system function
<charles`>
(step ... ) especially doesn't work well with event driven development
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<v3ga>
yeah i do get that much, maybe i'm misinterpreting what the book shows. i was expecting even for this small function for it to go through each bit. ah well. it's late, maybe i'm senile for the night
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<flip214>
wasn't there a way to do performance comparisons across the various implementation via some web interface? paste a few lines, get a performance table back?
<flip214>
Or is that on cl.net?
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<asarch>
What is a #<VECTOR-INPUT-STREAM {10053AD8A3}>?
<edgar-rft>
asarch: sounds like some sort of input-stream buffer
<loke[m]>
asarch probably a custom GREY-STREAMS implementation.
<loke[m]>
Probably a grey-streams implementation.
<Nilby>
(documentaion 'flexi-streams:vector-input-stream 'structure) => "A binary input stream that gets its data from an associated vector of octets."
<asarch>
Wow!
<asarch>
Thank you!
<asarch>
Thank you very much! :-)
<Nilby>
You're welcome. Many things can be learned from the documentation function.
<Nilby>
and apropos
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<asarch>
(documentaion 'flexi-streams:vector-input-stream 'structure) => ; Evaluation aborted on #<SB-INT:SIMPLE-READER-PACKAGE-ERROR "The symbol ~S is not external in the ~A package." {1004943783}>.
<asarch>
:-(
<phoe>
flexi-streams:vector-input-stream doesn't seem to be external
<phoe>
but, (documentation 'flexi-streams::vector-input-stream 'structure) works on my machine
<Nilby>
oh my bad, I did it on vectpr-stream
<Nilby>
hasty with the completion results
<phoe>
(documentation 'flexi-streams::vector-stream 'structure) also works on my machine
<edgar-rft>
I'm seriously wondering what's faster, reading the source code or fiddle out the correct cl:documentation syntax.
<phoe>
M-.
<edgar-rft>
true :-)
<phoe>
that's the fastest
<phoe>
and the docstring is also there, unless the code contains docstrings set in another location
<Nilby>
in reality I only typed: "doc vector-input-stream" , but I know y'all can't do that
<edgar-rft>
wrong, we *can* type that, but it will probably not have the same effect :-)
<Nilby>
true, and I even actually typed "doc M-S-,"
<Nilby>
and highlighted the thing
<Nilby>
if I was really doing irc in fully loaded client it should be just one keystroke
<Nilby>
on genera you can mouse over anything and do all that
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<asarch>
:help i-need-somebody
<asarch>
:help not-just-anybody
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<Nilby>
lyrics-apropos ?
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<asarch>
Yeah! :-)
<asarch>
Well, have a nice day guys
<asarch>
See you later
<asarch>
(sb-ext:bed)
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<n3t>
Hello. I'm looking for general (i.e. not only CL) LISP-related Freenode channels. Where should I go?
<jackdaniel>
n3t: ##lisp, #lispcafe
<jackdaniel>
also, for specific lisps: this channel, #scheme, #racket, #clojure
<n3t>
jackdaniel: thank you!
<jackdaniel>
sure
<jackdaniel>
also, #emacs, if you have elisp questions, however it is more editor-channel
<n3t>
ack
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<samlamamma>
You can't get the direct superclasses given some class, right? Like #'compute-direct-superclasses doesn't exist in the standard
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<jackdaniel>
samlamamma: how about (c2mop:class-direct-superclasses (find-class 'integer)) ;?
<jackdaniel>
you don't compute them
<jackdaniel>
because they are given
<jackdaniel>
(also, for completness, #'c2mop:class-direct-subclasses - of course)
<samlamamma>
Oh hey, cool
<jackdaniel>
shush, I want warm (-15°C here)
<samlamamma>
-1C here, I'm honestly disappointed
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<dbotton>
Clear
<Oladon>
Hrm. My build script has mysteriously stopped working.
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<dbotton>
(Oh my I guess typed that in to wrong window :)
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<edgar-rft>
that might explain the mystery
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<leo_song_>
one of my friend tested the amd64 version of sbcl on m1, the performance is good
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<phoe>
Xach: I'll actually ask here again to avoid offtopic
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<phoe>
is it feasible/possible to upgrade Quicklisp's fallback ASDF from 2.26?
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<Xach>
phoe: it's feasible
<Xach>
phoe: i don't want to push past any implementation's bundled 3.x though.
<Xach>
so whoever has the oldest 3.x will set the floor
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<aeth>
How do you update ASDF?
<phoe>
load a newer one
<aeth>
Quickload it?
<Xach>
aeth: that's one option. (load "asdf.lisp") is another. you could mix a compile-file into there too.
<ralt>
Xach: what's the reasoning behind not having anything newer than any implementation?
<aeth>
This seems to keep the version the same even though it loads (if you turn silent off): (list (asdf:asdf-version) (progn (ql:quickload :asdf :silent t) (asdf:asdf-version)))
<aeth>
So it's not as easy to upgrade as UIOP...
<Xach>
ralt: I am not interested in pushing an implementation's version past where the implementation maintainers have chosen.
<Xach>
You can quickload asdf if you download asdf sources and put it someplace asdf can find it.
<phoe>
I have local-projects/asdf with the version I want checked out
<aeth>
So I guess if you use something fixed in 2020, you have to get everyone to upgrade ASDF, and you have to have your CI check out the ASDF repo into local-projects
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<Xach>
Bike: does clasp include asdf?
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<Xach>
weird, ssl failure when cloning from gitlab.common-lisp.net
<Xach>
(not right away, partway through cloning abcl)
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<Xach>
did not repeat
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<phantomics>
a question: why does entering numbers in scientific notation always yield a float? Like 10e10 returns a float when the number can be expressed as an integer. Is there a way to enter numbers in e-notation yielding ints when possible?
<aeth>
You can do (round 10d10) but you'd need enough precision in the original, e.g. 10e10 (equivalent to 10f10 by default) won't give you the exact answer
<aeth>
You have to write it out the long way, e.g. (* 10 (expt 10 10))
<aeth>
you could write a reader macro to simplify that, though
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<phoe>
phantomics: not in the standard Lisp reader
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<phantomics>
I see, thanks aeth and phoe
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<_death>
phantomics: when writing numbers in scientific notation, you deal with real values.. that some of them can also be represented as integers is incidental.. if these translate to a different type, it would be inconvenient because usually a programmer's choice of whether to use floats or integers is explicit
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<Bike>
Xach: it does yes
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<aeth>
_death: well, I mean... 9.8e10 is an integer and 9.8e0 isn't, but it's not like you couldn't have scientific notation that results in a rational (bignum/bignum, rather than an integer) or error if it's not an integer, or have some rounding rule, or...
<tinga>
I'm trying to run an existing project and it complains that ASDF package doesnt exist, so I added (load "/usr/lib/sbcl/contrib/asdf.fasl") to the init file, now it complains that package QL doesnt exist. I suspect it might be quicklisp but while (load "/usr/share/common-lisp/source/quicklisp/quicklisp.lisp") pointed me to run (quicklisp-quickstart:install), which I did, it now still complains about QL not existing.
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<tinga>
What should I be doing?
<tinga>
(This is using sbcl, which is the recommended application of the project.)
<_death>
aeth: 9.8e10 is not an integer in Lisp.. it is an integer in math, but some languages choose to support multiple representations for a single mathematical value..
<aeth>
_death: I mean a mathematical integer. The fact that some words are overloaded with math words with separate meanings can be confusing at times. In Scheme land, they don't do that (except with vector), but then you get the confusion of 9.8 being an integer? so when you're a programmer you really want an exact-integer? instead when you want an integer... and so on.
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<aeth>
9.8e10 results in a mathematical integer so 9.8?10 could produce an integer.
<_death>
aeth: I'm not sure what you're arguing for..
<aeth>
_death: Floating points aren't reals, either. FORTRAN kind of pretends they are.
<aeth>
Anything that can be a float can also become a rational, as long as it's either an exact operation (like 9.8 * 10^10 is) or has a specified rounding precision.
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<aeth>
CL has both RATIONAL and RATIONALIZE to do this, with the latter generally producing more intuitive results when working on base-2 (rather than base-10) floats.
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<_death>
all I'm saying is that it would be inconvenient if 9.8e10 is an integer while 9.81e10 is not
<aeth>
The only reason why stuff like the scientific notation literals, SQRT, etc., don't produce rationals is that you'd need some global or extra parameter for precision. Floats have fixed precision.
<_death>
aeth: what's not true about it?
<aeth>
scymtym: hah
<aeth>
scymtym: looks like you can 10e10 into a rational after all
<phoe>
10r10*
<aeth>
phoe: but I already followed your (setf *read-default-float-format* 'rational)
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<aeth>
_death: mathematical real numbers (not the type CL:REAL) are infinite, whereas floating point are fixed-length. They are not reals. You can't even get all reals on a magic computer with infinite precision and infinite RAM: you can only get computable numbers.
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<_death>
(sorry, think 9.8e1 and 9.81e1)
<aeth>
The main difference between a RATIONAL and a FLOAT is the way the printer treats them: 258/25 vs 10.32
<phoe>
aeth: except mine doesn't work
<aeth>
Well, besides rational being infinite precision
<aeth>
It works. Mostly. It still prints rationals as rationals, instead of as the default floating point type.
<_death>
aeth: you can always argue yourself into a hole with infinite pedantry
<phoe>
......oh shit
<phoe>
I did *not* expect this to work
<aeth>
phoe: welcome to Lisp :-p
<aeth>
It almost comes with a built-in CAS
<phantomics>
Interesting
* phoe
- a bit more enlightened today
<aeth>
_death: Actually, exactly the opposite. Every other field has infinite pedantry. Mathematics is precise. The only confusing thing when applying mathematics in a computer science concept is that a lot of the terms have two meanings (like math's real numbers vs. CL:REAL)
<phantomics>
In that cast, if I want to read e-numbers as either float or decimal, depending on whether the output is a whole number, I can just check if the output from nEn has a fractional part that's bigger than the float epsilon, and if it isn't I evaluate the same number as nRn
<_death>
yeah, I'm gonna go now
<aeth>
_death: And in this case, it actually has an application. The application is that CL:RATIONALs can be used as "exact" floating points with just a little bit of work.
<aeth>
Well, more like, instead of floating points to approximate reals in a different way.
<aeth>
Someone probably has already written a SQRT* that will call SQRT if a float, but keep rationals as rationals to the desired level of precision. (Note: This isn't ISQRT, which rounds down)
<aeth>
phantomics: Memory's cheap so just do it twice.
<aeth>
phantomics: And then choose which one to keep
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<Xach>
Bike: what version?
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<devon>
Looking in vain for WITH-OPEN-LZMA-FILE
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<Xach>
devon: call it and then write code in the debug loop!
<kpoeck>
xach: clasp ships with asdf "3.3.3.5"
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<Xach>
kpoeck: thanks. how can i find that out for myself? i looked for things named asdf and none of them seemed to be asdf. (maybe i looked wrong)