<phoe>
OK, I'll leave it as-is for the time being. I'll play with ansi-tests tomorrow.
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<pfdietz92>
It could use some user friendliness.
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
<beach>
pjb: I would think the symbols would have the wrong home package if you do that.
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<pjb>
beach: indeed. 1- note that the CL standard doesn't specify that the symbols exported from CL must have CL as home package (IIRC). 2- you can "move" those symbols in CL, instead of just import/exporting them, by unintern/importing them.
<beach>
For 1. I prefer it that way, and 2 sounds more complicated than the usual solution.
<beach>
But thanks for your suggestions.
<beach>
I'll take them into account in my further thinking.
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<beach>
Like I said, I would like for the native version to look as "natural" as possible.
<beach>
If anything must look strange, it should be the extrinsic version.
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<beach>
pjb: And you are right, in section 11.1.2.1 the Common Lisp HyperSpec says "but their home package need not be the COMMON-LISP package".
<pjb>
beach: probably the simpliest is just to have two systems each using a different package-<…>.lisp file.
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<beach>
pjb: Yes, except for the problem of duplication in each sub-system (or extension) that I mentioned.
<beach>
But that's what I will do, at least at first.
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<beach>
I guess the problem here is that ASDF can take only constant names of packages and systems that it depends on, and perhaps that the system name and the file name must correspond.
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<jackdaniel>
beach: in principle that is not true, you may specialize asdf functions on your own component types and compute dynamically names of systems
<beach>
Er, not packages, I mean component names, one of which is the one where the package is specified.
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<jackdaniel>
and component names*
<jackdaniel>
if you need it I may try to write a small PoC for you later today (or tomorrow)
<beach>
And I would do that if I could find the information in the ASDF manual, but I can't.
<beach>
Oh, that would be great.
<beach>
Thanks.
<jackdaniel>
OK, I'm adding it to my todo
<jackdaniel>
sure
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<beach>
You can charge me for your time.
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<beach>
I know you are busy.
<beach>
This is the kind of stuff I would gladly pay for someone to do for me.
<jackdaniel>
no worries, it will take me only a couple minutes. I will add them to the time spent on clovetree
<beach>
Perfect.
<pjb>
beach: you can always use #.*some-component-name* in the asd file. But the problem is that asd introduces an additionnal "time": asd file loading time, which is not necessarily merged with the load-op or compile-op time. (asdf doesn't reload asd files that haven't changed when you re-load-op or re-compile-op a system).
<pjb>
beach: this is why using #+ is also not a very good solution.
<jackdaniel>
asdf since version 3 supports :if-feature option for components
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<beach>
pjb: I believe you.
<pjb>
:if-feature sounds interesting.
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<flip214>
to reload some _files_ in an asd, on linux you can insert a (serial) dependency on #P"/proc/meminfo" or similar. These always have a current timestamp, so all later files will get reloaded.
<flip214>
don't believe that works for the defsystem, though...
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<beach>
So for the SICL hash tables, I ended up with 4 files in the global system that are specific to the extrinsic version. And for each sub system defining a particular implementation, I ended up with 3 such specific files.
<jackdaniel>
interesting files are asdf-hacks.lisp and dsys.asd
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<rixard>
Cymew: I suspected it was you, and the WHOIS confirmed it ^^ I'll take the rest via PM
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<beach>
jackdaniel: Thanks. I'll study the code carefully.
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<aindilis>
anyone with any experience in AI planning interested in working together to write an open source version of this: ftp://ftp.cs.washington.edu/tr/1997/11/UW-CSE-97-11-05.pdf here is an example domain (reposting): https://frdcsa.org/~andrewdo/software/domains.lisp
<dmiles>
aindilis: so it runs on either LWC or UCCINI Planner?
<dmiles>
PUCCINI*
<aindilis>
I'm not sure but it probably runs on PUCCINI, however LCW is I think just the notion they use along the lines of open/closed world (stands for local closed world)
<dmiles>
what the softbot knows.. its part of the LCW databse/blackboard
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<dmiles>
like disk structure appears in LCW database
<aindilis>
ah kk
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<dmiles>
"Since it knows all the files in papers, and it doesn't know about file "foo", it follows that foo is not in papers. If there hadn't been such an lcw formula, the agent would have concluded that it didn't know."
<dmiles>
after moves file foo someplace it updates lcw
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<aindilis>
kk
<aindilis>
I'm looking to email Petrick asking for some of his planning systems
<dmiles>
i guess what you have to do is find a planner impl good enough to run the domain file
<aindilis>
"This can be seen as a complementary approach to handling open world environments using local closed world (LCW) information produced by sensing actions (Etzioni, Golden, and Weld 1997)."
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<q[corwin]>
Greetings! I'd like to compose a function that accepts nested other-keys, can this be done without knowing the set of valid keys are at compile time? i.e.: (my/func :foo { :bar "Hello, world!")) ;; thanks in advance for any tips.
<q[corwin]>
;; that curley brace should be an open paren if that's not obv
<beach>
What does it mean to "compose a function"? What is an "other-key"? And whaat are "nested keys"?
<beach>
Sorry, I am notoriously bad at filling in blanks that might be obvious to others.
<phoe>
q[corwin]: (my/func :foo (:bar "Hello, world!")) is invalid lisp
<phoe>
unless you define a function named :BAR
<p_l>
my/func can work this way if it's a macro
<p_l>
otherwise it needs to be (my/func :foo '(:bar "Hello, World!"))
<beach>
So I guess my questions turned out to be valid.
<q[corwin]>
p_l: macro sounds hopeful. and probably correct for me. can you give me a hint (of what to read so I learn) how that might look?
<beach>
q[corwin]: How about answering my questions?
<q[corwin]>
beach: sorry. I was going for something like (cl-defun &rest keyword-map) where keyword map will contain keyword maps.
<q[corwin]>
beach: working on it, meng. some of us aren't awesome at this. appreciate everyone's patience.
<jackdaniel>
cl-defun seems like some compatibility layer for common lisp (i.e not common lisp)
<beach>
I fear that I am not going to understand the problem here.
<beach>
For example, a new term was just introduced, namely a "keyword map".
<q[corwin]>
beach: compose a function: use cl-defun or similar. recursive keys meaning keyword can be given values that contain keyword/value pairs and the nested keywords are also not known by the function implemention at compile-time.
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<beach>
q[corwin]: What is cl-defun?
<p_l>
q[corwin]: that said, #emacs might be more adequate place, given cl-defun
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<q[corwin]>
ohhh. Is the answer going to be different in an emacs context? I can *not* use emacs if that makes a difference..
<ggole>
You can pass arbitrary argument lists. The compose operations doesn't need to care what is in them, or how they are interpreted by the composed functions.
<p_l>
ah, in general, elisp is a bit different semantically
<p_l>
some scoping changed to fit more scheme/CL way recently, but has to be explicitly required
<q[corwin]>
p_l: imoortant safety tip. ty
<ggole>
Something like (defun compose (f g) (lambda (&rest args) (funcall f (apply g args)))), I guess (not tested)
<jackdaniel>
if it is for a class introducing common lisp then you have some to catch up
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<q[corwin]>
ggole: /that/ looks like the sort of thing I should be reading about. I will go read about compose. Thanks for the all of the assistance @here
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<ebrasca>
How to expand cl standard with new features? ( Like secure delete for files )
<beach>
ebrasca: Depends on what you mean by "expand cl standard".
<beach>
ebrasca: You can just add stuff like that as a library.
<ebrasca>
beach: I like to add secure delete of files to Mezzano.
<beach>
What is preventing you?
<ebrasca>
How to do it?
<beach>
That just seems like lack of knowledge, and not a question about expanding the standard. What am I missing?
<ebrasca>
Someting like this (delete-file filespec :secure-delete-p t) ?
<ebrasca>
Or some gloval policy?
<beach>
You are not allowed to add keyword arguments to a function that does not already have some. At least that is what I remember from the Common Lisp HyperSpec.
<beach>
So if I am right, it would have to be a Mezzano-specific function.
<ebrasca>
In Mezzano It have allow-other-keys ...
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<beach>
I may be wrong about the additional keyword parameters. I can't find the relevant information right now.
<lieven>
in general the philosophy is that a comforming program keeps working as inteded
<lieven>
*intended
<beach>
Right.
<beach>
ebrasca: So you can just go ahead and add another keyword parameter.
<lieven>
calling a standard function with keyword parameters not defined in the standard would otherwise be treated as an error and extensions are free to define meaning for those
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<lieven>
I've never seen this stated explicitly in the spec but it's generally assumed that an implementation is free to make every standard function a generic function
<beach>
That I think is true.
<beach>
I intend to make several of the standard function generic in SICL.
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<beach>
For instance, I have (defclass symbol ((%name ... :reader symbol-name)) (:metaclass built-in-class))
<beach>
So SYMBOL-NAME is generic.
<beach>
GENERIC-FUNCTION is a subclass of FUNCTION after all.
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<lieven>
I had also totally missed or forgotten 3.4.1.4.1
<lieven>
you can decide to allow-other-keys at the call side of a function, not just the definition side
<beach>
Oh yes. Ask me about it.
<beach>
:)
<beach>
I had to implement that for argument parsing.
<lieven>
I'm a bit at a loss to find a use for it
<jdz>
I once came up with a legitimate use in the context of Hunchentoot.
<dlowe>
mostly used for passing arguments through a function
<dlowe>
but you still want to enforce the key-value calling style
<pjb>
beach: you forgot the list of superclasses in your defclass symbol.
<beach>
Oops, right.
<beach>
it is just (t).
<aeth>
Let's say you have a higher order function that calls a function with the keyword argument bar. Now add baz. Now without :allow-other-keys t your update is a breaking API change even though many keyword arguments are optional and the change shouldn't break
<aeth>
So 3.4.1.4.1 is useful
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<ebrasca>
I am thinking my delete with extra key arguments now give error in sbcl.
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<beach>
ebrasca: That should not surprise you.
<ebrasca>
What is the point of adding if it don't work.
<beach>
ebrasca: If the Common Lisp HyperSpec does not mention that a keyword parameter exists, then the implementation has no obligation to support it.
<beach>
ebrasca: You were talking about Mezzano, not SBCL.
<ebrasca>
Does CL have someting like secure delete of files?
<_death>
if clhs wants to allow additional keywords, it at least specifies &key.. e.g., DIRECTORY
<ebrasca>
_death: What about making sure all data is overwriten whe deleting files?
<_death>
ebrasca: you can have your own operator for that, or pass the option in a different way (say special variable)
<phoe>
ebrasca: not really. It's up to the OS to ensure that data cannot be recovered.
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<phoe>
In some cases (e.g. in case of copy-on-write filesystems), it might be impossible to shred the contents of a file without an intervention of the filesystem driver.
<ebrasca>
phoe: What about Mezzano , and what if you don't like to lose time in deleting it?
<phoe>
Mezzano is an OS itself and has direct access to the filesystem drivers, so it can likely implement something like that itself.
<phoe>
There is nothing in the standard about shredding file contents on deletion though.
<ebrasca>
Can I make sure in sbcl data is destroyed or not?
<phoe>
No.
<phoe>
SBCL can be running on Linux that is running ZFS with snapshots. This means that e.g. the system administrator can use ZFS's snapshot functionality to restore the file.
<_death>
but ebrasca, didn't you also implement the filesystem?
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<phoe>
So it is actually impossible for SBCL to ensure that data is actually destroyed. It would need to hook into the underlying OS to have that.
<ebrasca>
Yea , fat write and read and ext only read.
<ebrasca>
_death: ^
<_death>
so you know, up to a certain level, what happens when you write a byte
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<_death>
in any case this is an implementation detail.. I thought you asked about the interface
<ebrasca>
Thanks for helping!
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<dlowe>
I have a historical question: Say I have a lisp machine (or some lisp-image-on-hardware setup) and I have a program running a server program, presumably on a thread
<dlowe>
How do I run a different version of the same program without definitions colliding
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<Shinmera>
package tricks are currently the only real option, unless the application implements its own versioning scheme protocol.
<housel>
In practice I suspect that was seldom done
<housel>
Who needs different versions anyhow? was the prevalent attitude in the 80s
<Shinmera>
It is, still, for a lot of people and systems today :)
<phoe>
just spin up another vm™
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<ebrasca>
Do someone need diferent versions of someting?
<Shinmera>
Software might have different version dependencies, so you won't be able to run two pieces of software unless they agree on the versions, or you can have multiple versions at once.
<ebrasca>
Why?
<dlowe>
I'm thinking more of just separating prod and dev
<Shinmera>
If you need high availability, being able to keep multiple versions at once can also be very helpful, as you don't need to stop the service.
<p_l>
you could do first-class environments as in SICL
<ebrasca>
Shinmera: I think it is called Dependency hell.
<phoe>
that would be a very good solution, yes
<p_l>
ebrasca: no, dependency hell is when you have conflicting dependencies you can't sandbox
<dlowe>
okay, yes, that could work
<Shinmera>
dependency hell is a symptom of dependency conflicts.
<phoe>
standard common lisp behaviour is to invoke dependency hell when you try to load version 2 and version 3 of the same package
<dlowe>
I was just wondering if there was something used besides another running image
<Shinmera>
*FCGE
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<edgar-rft>
Yeah, nobody needs versions, let's all use Lisp 1.5
<Shinmera>
And given that nobody has them, nor used them, the possibility of using them for resolving version conflicts is only theoretical at this point
<phoe>
edgar-rft: if nobody needs versions then why is your lisp versioned 1.5
<edgar-rft>
phoe: it wasn't me who named it so
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<edgar-rft>
I wasn't even born at that time (most perfect excuse ever)
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<jackdaniel>
operation failed: success. ;; to quote one brilliant windows quirk.
<fiddlerwoaroof>
:)
<ggole>
That's more the C stdlib than anything
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<no-defun-allowed>
Is there anything like sb-sprof for Clozure?
<no-defun-allowed>
I found SAM <https://github.com/eugeneia/sam> which is pretty good (with some hacks to run better on ARM32) but it's still a little lacking.
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<p_l>
li
<p_l>
(wrong window)
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