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<adlai>
is there a dedicated channel for ECL discussion?
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* adlai
is estimating an ETA for ECL issue 305 fixing itself in the absence of external motivation
* adlai
/join #ecl #\Newline ;;; please continue this conversation there :)
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
<Josh_2>
'mornin beach :)
<loke>
hellp beach!
<loke>
[04:23]
<loke>
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<loke>
#atariscne
<loke>
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<loke>
channel #atariscne [04:25]
<loke>
<ggn> wooohooo get your linux root access before it's patched [04:41]
<loke>
<wietze> sup [05:38]
<loke>
<wietze> ew [05:39]
<loke>
<wietze> makes you wonder how long thats been around
<loke>
<ggn> tried it on a super ageing linux install and yup it's there [05:40]
<Josh_2>
loke: are you okay?
<loke>
<wietze> word [05:42]
<loke>
<Harekiet> macos, just do it! [06:01]
<loke>
<evl> TOS! Zero sudo bugs there [06:07]
<loke>
<ggn> yeeeah boi [06:09]
<loke>
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<loke>
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<loke>
[06:34]
<loke>
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<loke>
#atariscne [06:44]
<loke>
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<loke>
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<loke>
[06:53]
<loke>
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<loke>
#atariscne [08:14]
<loke>
<gorgh> hi scenish sceners [08:15]
<loke>
<ggn> you still want that greetings list? only 10 zloti! [08:16]
<loke>
<gorgh> yes, I would love to have a current list of the most trendy names, I
<loke>
take it! [08:19]
<loke>
<tat___> you should do a list of entirely invented group names [08:24]
<loke>
<gorgh> I just want to be liked like those shader guy
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<ebrasca>
loke: ???
<ebrasca>
Morning beach!
<loke>
Yeah. accidental paste
<loke>
sorry about that
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<no-defun-allowed>
Should I write (not (find .....)) or (null (find .....))?
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<Shinmera>
depends on whether you want to find the null or not find what you're looking for.
<no-defun-allowed>
I want to not find what I'm looking for.
<Shinmera>
then (not (find ..))
<no-defun-allowed>
And what I'm looking for won't ever be NIL.
<Shinmera>
right, cause find won't distinguish that case anyway
<no-defun-allowed>
Right, thanks.
<Shinmera>
(member does, if you have a list)
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<Shinmera>
Often you can also avoid the not altogether by reshuffling clauses.
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<no-defun-allowed>
I'll have to take a look then.
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<decent-username>
I wanted to understand how :adjustable modifies the characteristics of an array. Therefore I've read what the HyperSpec had to say, but it didn't really help me. Why would I want to use ":adjustable t" when creating an array?
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<jackdaniel>
decent-username: i.e when the average case is that array will hold 4 elements but in rare occasions it needs to hold 1024 elements
<jackdaniel>
you create an array of size 4 and when you exceed that number it is adjusted
<decent-username>
hm... but for that I would need to supply :fill-pointer, right?
<jackdaniel>
if you use fill-pointer you allocate full array beforehand
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<decent-username>
Because doing something like (make-array 4 :adjustable t) will still raise an error when I try to use vector-push-extend
<jackdaniel>
if you have *a lot* of small arrays then it would be a huge waste to have each of them to have 1024 size
<jackdaniel>
you need to call adjust-array
<decent-username>
ahh, I didn't know such a function existed. I think that's the thing that led to the confusion.
<decent-username>
Thanks, that cleared things up for me. :)
<jackdaniel>
sure
<jackdaniel>
I'm still waiting for the new CL standard with left-fill-pointer, rotating arrays and conformal displacement :-)
<scymtym>
decent-username: VECTOR-PUSH-EXTEND can adjust the array for you, but you have to specify both, :adjustable t and :fill-pointer VALID-INDEX-OR-T when creating the array for that to work
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<loke>
scymtym: My implementation does all of that already
<loke>
(also, no need for :fill-pointer)
<scymtym>
loke: i don't follow. decent-username asked why (make-array 4 :adjustable t) followed by VECTOR-PUSH-EXTEND didn't work
<loke>
scymtym: Oh right. It was JD that talked about circular arrays
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<montxero>
Any ideas on how to deal with lambdas inside datastructures like a-lists? I am running into problems using those. Check https://pastebin.com/UP3i4YzP out
<Shinmera>
what you have there is not a function, but a list of (function (lambda ...)), since it's within a quote.
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<montxero>
Shinmera: Oh.
<decent-username>
Those hash quotes before every lambda expression are also redundant right?
<Shinmera>
Yes.
<montxero>
decent-username: I think I doesn't matter in most cases
<montxero>
it**
<Shinmera>
it's more consistent to not use #' for lambda, because there are cases where you must write (lambda ..) and not #'(lambda ..)
<decent-username>
Yeah, but why would you writem them though? (lambda ...) is more readable than #'(lambda ...).
<Shinmera>
whether it's more readable or not is up for debate, but the consistency is not.
<montxero>
decent-username: A gentle introduction to symbolic computation suggested so.
<decent-username>
I've unfortunately already forgotten 50% what the book said.
<decent-username>
;p
<loke>
decent-username: (LAMBDA () ...) has a macro-expansion that expands it to (FUNCTION (LAMBDA () ...)). Now, #'(LAMBDA () ...) is a reader-macro that expands into... (FUNCTION (LAMBDA () ...))
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<montxero>
Shinmera: Golly, you're right. type-of shows it is a cons.
<Shinmera>
A already knew I was right because the printed representation of a function is not readable, so it would show as #<function ..>
<decent-username>
loke: Is there a case where it matters if the macro is expanded during read-time compared to compile time?
<montxero>
How can I use lambdas in an alist?
<montxero>
Or should I abandon the idea?
<decent-username>
just use a regular quote
<decent-username>
'(lambda (x) (+ x x))
<Shinmera>
what
<montxero>
decent-username: giving it a go
<decent-username>
that stores it as a list and it can later be evaluated
<Shinmera>
montxero: `((foo . ,(lambda () ..)))
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<montxero>
decent-username: didn't work
<montxero>
Shinmera: clever... trying now
<decent-username>
> . < damn
<montxero>
Shinmera: Boom!!
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<d4ryus>
When constructing lists with quasiquote, is it ok to modify them at runtime?
<montxero>
decent-username: not to worry, we both learned someting new... or rather relearned
<decent-username>
alright, guess there's some stuff goin on under the hood that I don't know.
<Shinmera>
d4ryus: Generally no, but usually the quasiquote will have to create a fresh structure at runtime anyway.
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<d4ryus>
Shinmera: hmm, interesting. Why/When would it need to create a fresh structure? It is creating a list at compile time, isnt it?
<Shinmera>
how could it make `(a ,b) at compile-time?
<Shinmera>
or better yet, `(a ,@b)
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<Shinmera>
In fact, if it didn't, that would be catastrophic for macros, since a second invocation of a macro would suddenly change the results of a previous invocation.
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<decent-username>
evaluating (setf blub (let ((xs '((a . #'(λ (s) s))))) (assoc 'a xs))) gives me something with the following printed representation (A FUNCTION (Λ (S) S))
<loke>
decent-username: You can intentionally create a pathological case where it does matter.
<loke>
In practice, no. At least not in my experience.
<decent-username>
loke: thx for the answer
<loke>
decent-username: You can play around with EVAL-WHEN, and you can create all sorts of weird behaviour.
<decent-username>
Then make I'll sure to stay the fuck away from that evil satanistic function.
<d4ryus>
Shinmera: huh, thats new to me, i thought quasiquote was expanded at macro expansion time. But yeah, one can use quasiquote to do ,@ at runtime, neat
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<decent-username>
LOL! I've configured emacs to show a literal lambda whenever I write "lambda" and that seems to mess with slime.
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<montxero>
decent-username: huh? I have that setting and it works a treat. No issues with slime here
<montxero>
how did you set it up?
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<dlowe>
your payment the best, though: having another lisper around
<dlowe>
*is
<decent-username>
dlowe: there's some truth to that
<skidd0>
dlowe: i have constantly espoused the grand benefits of learning lisp and using SLIME to my programming coworkers. all have expressed interest. none have actually pursued. they're too busy being employed with Blubs and too millenial to actually follow up on their claims. i think they just want me to shut up about lisp
* jackdaniel
keeps for himself a few salty remarks about recommending lisp to friends
<skidd0>
let the salt vent out
<skidd0>
you won't feel any better tho
<jackdaniel>
nah, that wouldn't be constructive ,)
<skidd0>
good point. wish i could remove my rant
<decent-username>
REAL™ computer scientists and software developers use Common Lisp.
<skidd0>
i try my best to avoid the no-true-scottsmans
<jackdaniel>
real computer scientists and software developers get things done disregarding the language without calling others unreal ,p
* jackdaniel
checks no-true-scottsman on urban dictionary
<Cymew>
Real programmers write in Fortran, right?
<decent-username>
HERETIC! Burn Cymew at the stake!
<Cymew>
LOL! :)
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<Cymew>
I have actually been paid for writing both Fortran and CL.
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<dlowe>
You know, at one time all programmers were big nerds, but that hasn't been true for decades now. I don't think it's reasonable to expect everyone to have an obsession with a job skill.
<Cymew>
So very true.
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<skidd0>
dlowe: employers and hiring managers seem to
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<dlowe>
skidd0: employers and hiring managers know that "passion" drives down salaries
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<dlowe>
they're just being cheapskates
<dlowe>
anyway, this is a nice #lispcafe discussion
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<skidd0>
do new threads use the same std-out stream?
<jackdaniel>
"forthran", what a nice name for a new programming language! ;)
<dlowe>
forthanisp?
<jackdaniel>
skidd0: it depeneds, but you may add the streams to initial-bindings
<jackdaniel>
then they will
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<pfdietz>
Ah, format hackery. ~:[ ... ~; ~:* ... ~]
<Xach>
~:D
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<montxero>
What are some best practices for developing gui / command line applications.
<dlowe>
what other kinds are there?
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<p_l>
dlowe: daemons?
<montxero>
dlowe: programs that just run in the repl, maybe web-apps...
<p_l>
on-demand functions/blocks in specialized hosting environments
<p_l>
(often called serverless these days, 1960s called and says CICS did it back then better and cheaper)
<dlowe>
specialized command line applications :)
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<montxero>
okay so there are several kinds of applications, I just want to be able to make an application that doesn't have to run only in the repl
<jackdaniel>
montxero: check out CLON (in quicklisp net.didierverna.clon)
<jackdaniel>
it has a good documentation
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<jackdaniel>
it is for creating console binaries with an interface --with-flags --and-options=42
<montxero>
jackdaniel: thanks... all over it
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<jackdaniel>
if you are interested in gui applications there is McCLIM (that may be combined with clon!) and ffi bindings like eql5, commonqt and a few others
<jackdaniel>
regarding daemonizing applications you'll probably have to write your service definitions yourself, but that's not surprise given only you know how your program will be invoked
<dlowe>
I have a couple of lisp daemons running under systemd. It wasn't difficult.
<jackdaniel>
I second the above
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<p_l>
don't "daemonize", run like a foreground process, use supervision feature in init system. done.
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<montxero>
bye folks
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<flip214>
pjb: is that on-topic because it got rewritten in Lisp? ;)
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* lieven
gets a vision of a Common Lisp implementation by Poettering
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<pjb>
flip214: pretty please, rewrite it in CL!
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<aeth>
I wonder the implications of writing something like that in Common Lisp. e.g. Memory usage is higher, so I guess you'd want to put it all in one process instead of having dozens of daemons (a few hundred MB vs. GBs of RAM usage)
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<aeth>
(What I mean is that the fixed cost k in RAM usage is much higher for each process, so you could save 19k worth of RAM of you use one daemon instead of 20)
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<no-defun-allowed>
Yeah, one runtime would have less overhead than one runtime per process.
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